15168 réponses à ce sujet

[ISpeakTheTruth]

I actually think that Miranda is the most equal out of any f the possible romance options for a male Shepard.



Liara clearly worships Shepard once you see her appartment it basically a creep shrine to him.

Tali is like a love sick puppy when around Shepard.

And Jack... is insane.



Miranda is the one that has no problem openly questioning Shepard on points that she disagrees with and she's also a very good leader just like him. I always see Miranda as being the closest to an equal to Shepard that you're ever going to get.

[TOBY FLENDERSON]

I agree, but she's also barren so there goes the chance of little Shepards.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Toby... This game takes place in a universe where you have the technology to bring someone back from the dead when all you have to work with is some burned meat a few bones all being held together by a single tendon.



I think a little problem like difficulty concieving a child should be a rather simple task

[Sable Rhapsody]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

I actually think that Miranda is the most equal out of any f the possible romance options for a male Shepard. 

This, though I would add that ME2 Liara is much better about it than she was in ME1.

I know there will always be power imbalance between PC and NPC.  The PC is the primary character, of COURSE s/he's going to be the most badass son of a b**** in space after Sir Isaac.  But large power discrepencies always really bothered me--it just feels uncomfortable, like the PC is taking advantage somehow.

[jtav]

The ME2 romances are really harmed by the lack of a locker room scene. Shepard seems barely human, and an idiot besides in ME2, I want mutuality in my romance.

[Aedan_Cousland]

TOBY FLENDERSON wrote...

I agree, but she's also barren so there goes the chance of little Shepards.

Miranda being infertile is a non-issue, IMO, even if it is curable.

Whether he lives or dies Shepard's story ends with ME3. Even if the ME universe lives on beyond ME3, you'd never hear of any of Shepard's offspring anyway, especially when there are a few different romance options, one of which would produce alien rather than human children, and one which is absolutely guaranteed to produce no children. (Tali)

That, and Shepard may die in ME3 without having children with any of the potential LIs.

If there are any future ME games beyond the Shepard trilogy, the protagonist would be someone other than Shepard, and there probably wouldn't be any mention of his children.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 05 janvier 2011 - 01:39 .

[MsSihaKatieKrios]

jtav wrote...

The "space Jesus" aspect is why I find the relationship so disgusting. Shepard is always the one providing support and the one changing Miranda, but never the other way around. It's not equal. It can't be equal because of the medium.It's god/worshiper, not a romance, and I want no part of it.

True. But then again, the BW devs had to consider the fact that stripping Shepard of his Jesus-like status would cause all the ego-issue 12 year olds(or any age, for that matter) who play this game to shun this game because their PC isn't Jesus. And we all know who these guys romanced anyways......and it wasn't Miri.

[Pacifien]

Does anyone know who the main writer for Miranda was? I've started a project. So far I've learned that Patrick Weekes did some work on her, but he was not the main writer.

[Ryzaki]

Frankly I don't think any LI is equal to Shepard. Not even Miranda. No one can match Shepard's accomplishments, ability to manipulate, charisma not even TIM himself. Shepard is a bloody god mode sue and if anyone became anywhere near as charming as he was I'd want to kill them with a flamethrower. One is quite enough.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ryzaki wrote...

Frankly I don't think any LI is equal to Shepard. Not even Miranda. No one can match Shepard's accomplishments, ability to manipulate, charisma not even TIM himself. Shepard is a bloody god mode sue and if anyone became anywhere near as charming as he was I'd want to kill them with a flamethrower. One is quite enough.

EVERY video game RPG protagonist either is or develops into some kind of Mary Sue   Just comes with the terrain.  The PC is invariably the coolest, prettiest, smartest, and most badass person who saves the world.  Let it never be claimed that there isn't an element of wish fulfillment in RPGs.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Frankly I don't think any LI is equal to Shepard. Not even Miranda. No one can match Shepard's accomplishments, ability to manipulate, charisma not even TIM himself. Shepard is a bloody god mode sue and if anyone became anywhere near as charming as he was I'd want to kill them with a flamethrower. One is quite enough.

EVERY video game RPG protagonist either is or develops into some kind of Mary Sue   Just comes with the terrain.  The PC is invariably the coolest, prettiest, smartest, and most badass person who saves the world.  Let it never be claimed that there isn't an element of wish fulfillment in RPGs.

I completely agree with this. As I play my Shepards, I will randomly make decisions that are out of character that he would regret. My "canon" Shepard (I don't really like the term due to what you stated) fraternizes with his crew in ME1 and ME2 (Ashley and Miranda) even though he knows it is selfish and stupid. He's just a man though.

[Ryzaki]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Frankly I don't think any LI is equal to Shepard. Not even Miranda. No one can match Shepard's accomplishments, ability to manipulate, charisma not even TIM himself. Shepard is a bloody god mode sue and if anyone became anywhere near as charming as he was I'd want to kill them with a flamethrower. One is quite enough.

EVERY video game RPG protagonist either is or develops into some kind of Mary Sue   Just comes with the terrain.  The PC is invariably the coolest, prettiest, smartest, and most badass person who saves the world.  Let it never be claimed that there isn't an element of wish fulfillment in RPGs.

ah true.

That's why I feel the claim that they have to be Shep's equal to be...odd at best. Any character that ended up being Shep's equal would probably make me want to strangle them.

Drop dead beautiful, always right, never fails. Gah I'm gagging just thinking about it.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 janvier 2011 - 07:40 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ryzaki wrote...

That's why I feel the claim that they have to be Shep's equal to be...odd at best. Any character that ended up being Shep's equal would probably make me want to strangle them.

Drop dead beautiful, always right, never fails. Gah I'm gagging just thinking about it.

Not necessarily equal, but IMO it's nice to have someone who's at least close in terms of badassery, if nothing else.  For an example of a romance that bothered me in just how grossly unequal it was, take female Revan and Carth.  Or the Bhaalspawn and Aerie.  Or the Bhaalspawn and Anomen.  I understand no one is ever as wonderful as the PC and it's futile to try, but romancing a character who is THAT MUCH weaker than you are smacks to me of potential disburbingness.  

Just my 2 cents.

[Ryzaki]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Not necessarily equal, but IMO it's nice to have someone who's at least close in terms of badassery, if nothing else.  For an example of a romance that bothered me in just how grossly unequal it was, take female Revan and Carth.  Or the Bhaalspawn and Aerie.  Or the Bhaalspawn and Anomen.  I understand no one is ever as wonderful as the PC and it's futile to try, but romancing a character who is THAT MUCH weaker than you are smacks to me of potential disburbingness.  

Just my 2 cents.

But everyone in your squad is pretty equal in terms of badassery already. Garrus holds his own with three waves of merc groups after him, Miranda is pretty much TIM's right hand, Tali is a renowed engineer, Jacob can command the ragtag roup in your squad, Thane is...well thane, Jack is a biotic powerhouse, so on and so on.

...I didn't see any major disparity in FemRevan (particularly an Good FemRevan) and Carth. Yeah he wasn't a Jedi but he was a renowed pilot and no slouch.

I just dislike the idea that someone has to be uber unique and special to hold the main character's attention. Heck I pretend my canon Shepard is married to a banker (obviously an OC) of all people.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ryzaki wrote...

But everyone in your squad is pretty equal in terms of badassery already. Garrus holds his own with three waves of merc groups after him, Miranda is pretty much TIM's right hand, Tali is a renowed engineer, Jacob can command the ragtag roup in your squad, Thane is...well thane, Jack is a biotic powerhouse, so on and so on.

...I didn't see any major disparity in FemRevan (particularly an Good FemRevan) and Carth. Yeah he wasn't a Jedi but he was a renowed pilot and no slouch.

I just dislike the idea that someone has to be uber unique and special to hold the main character's attention. Heck I pretend my canon Shepard is married to a banker (obviously an OC) of all people.

It's not just about being a Jedi.  It's about being Revan, the former Sith Lord and possibly one of the most powerful and deadly determined people ever in the Star Wars universe.  We're talking here about a person who can kill people in the blink of an eye and determine the future course of history.  It's painfully clear who calls the shots--word to the wise, it ain't Carth.

More generally speaking, I'm not just talking about badassery in terms of killing potential, I'm talking about it also in terms of force of personality.  Most protagonists must be "this badass to ride."  In order for the game to make any sense, a protagonist worth his/her salt has to have a personality and attitude strong enough to put up with all the crap s/he faces off against in game and still be reasonably functional.  And if you think about it, it's a very high bar of entry.  Think of how much hell Shep, the Bhaalspawn, the Warden, etc. go through.  Pairing someone like that with a character who is made of significantly less stern stuff (personality, combat skills, self-confidence, whatever) seems like you're asking for the poor NPC to get stomped all over.

*shrug*  To each their own, I'm certainly not gonna tell you how to play your game [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/smilie]  I just like my romances to involve NPCs who could realistically hold their own with the PC.  They don't have to be equals, just not people whom the PC can rollerstomp.

[Ryzaki]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

It's not just about being a Jedi.  It's about being Revan, the former Sith Lord and possibly one of the most powerful and deadly determined people ever in the Star Wars universe.  We're talking here about a person who can kill people in the blink of an eye and determine the future course of history.  It's painfully clear who calls the shots--word to the wise, it ain't Carth.

More generally speaking, I'm not just talking about badassery in terms of killing potential, I'm talking about it also in terms of force of personality.  Most protagonists must be "this badass to ride."  In order for the game to make any sense, a protagonist worth his/her salt has to have a personality and attitude strong enough to put up with all the crap s/he faces off against in game and still be reasonably functional.  And if you think about it, it's a very high bar of entry.  Think of how much hell Shep, the Bhaalspawn, the Warden, etc. go through.  Pairing someone like that with a character who is made of significantly less stern stuff (personality, combat skills, self-confidence, whatever) seems like you're asking for the poor NPC to get stomped all over.

*shrug*  To each their own, I'm certainly not gonna tell you how to play your game [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/smilie]  I just like my romances to involve NPCs who could realistically hold their own with the PC.  They don't have to be equals, just not people whom the PC can rollerstomp.

Yes because we all know Carth is easily cowed.

Really? Carth may have been able to be killed by Revan in the blink of an eye but he certainly wasn't submissve and docile. If he thought you were being a pscyho b**** he called you on it. (And hell he even stops you from killing a few people). Just because he wasn't backhanding Revan for doing something he disagreed with didn't make him a doormat.

Not really. Someone doesn't have to have an overtly forceful personality to avoid being treated like crap. And relationships are a two way street. I expect Shepard to respect whoever he's in a relationship enough *not* to steamroll over them. To me I don't see where being weaker and less loud than the PC makes someone a doormat.

True I think this is a case of to each their own because I don't see how not being the PC's equal in terms of accomplishments or not having a dominant personality means the PC can treat them like a doormat. (In terms of rollerstop Shep can pretty much do that to everyone if we're going it phsyically).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 janvier 2011 - 08:54 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ryzaki wrote...
Really? Carth may have been able to be killed by Revan in the blink of an eye but he certainly wasn't submissve and docile. If he thought you were being a pscyho b**** he called you on it. (And hell he even stops you from killing a few people). Just because he wasn't backhanding Revan for doing something he disagreed with didn't make him a doormat.

Well, he runs away from you and leaves a fourteen year old girl and her best friend to die without so much as a backward glance <_<  *shrug*  But he's tangential to my point.

Someone doesn't have to have an overtly forceful personality to avoid being treated like crap. And relationships are a two way street. I expect Shepard to respect whoever he's in a relationship enough *not* to steamroll over them. To me I don't see where being weaker and less loud than the PC makes someone a doormat.

Hmm...maybe I'm not making my point clearly.  For a romance to feel realistic and healthy to me, the NPC at least has to be badass enough and self-confident enough in his/her own right to keep up with the PC.  I'm not saying the PC is going to treat every NPC like a doormat just by virtue of being more badass than they are.  I am not saying that being "loud" is the only way to be self-confident.  Brianna from KOTOR 2 is an excellent example of a relatively quiet and reclusive character who can be more than a match for the Exile if given half a chance.  Fall-from-Grace in PS:T is another example.

But relationships where the PC is a) considerably more powerful AND made of far sterner stuff than his/her NPC romance interest are IMO just uncomfortable.  Whether due to game mechanics or trope or whatever, some romances always feel like they concentrates enormous power, emotional and otherwise, in the hands of the PC.  This is especially egregious in "therapy romances" like Paragon Jack, Viconia if redeemed, Aerie, arguably Thane, etc.  One partner wielding that much control over the other is kinda disturbing.

[MsSihaKatieKrios]

Shep=Space Jesus.

Master Chief=Futuristic Space Jesus.

Boss in Saints Row 2=Street Jesus with a really salty tongue.



Need I say more?

[Ryzaki]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...


Well, he runs away from you and leaves a fourteen year old girl and her best friend to die without so much as a backward glance <_<  *shrug*  But he's tangential to my point.

Well he did tell her to follow her being too dumb to follow his advice isn't his fault.

And remember he later shows up on his own to try to talk you down. He oes there knowing he's going to die but he still tries to make DarthRevan see the "light" so to speak.

Now with a Male Darth Revan there really was no excuse but I guess one could make the excuse that he's going to warn the republic that Revan's gone apes***.

Hmm...maybe I'm not making my point clearly.  For a romance to feel realistic and healthy to me, the NPC at least has to be badass enough and self-confident enough in his/her own right to keep up with the PC.  I'm not saying the PC is going to treat every NPC like a doormat just by virtue of being more badass than they are.  I am not saying that being "loud" is the only way to be self-confident.  Brianna from KOTOR 2 is an excellent example of a relatively quiet and reclusive character who can be more than a match for the Exile if given half a chance.  Fall-from-Grace in PS:T is another example.

See to me I don't see that. For the relationship to feel realistic and healthy to me the PC and NPC need to at least consider the other's feelings and thoughts before making a decision. That's it. As long as there's mutal respect, understanding and affection nothing else is needed.

Maybe its because I was friends with a group of shy quiet kids growing up (and was one myself) that I don't see the whole needing to be badass to be an equal to a badass thing. Most of my friends didn't fight, didn't argue when insulted, didn't bother arguing about what they saw to be trival matters and so on. It took a lot for me to get irritable enough to even take something back someone borrowed. (It had to be something I cared about to tick me off in the first place).

But relationships where the PC is a) considerably more powerful
AND made of far sterner stuff than his/her NPC romance interest are
IMO just uncomfortable.  Whether due to game mechanics or trope or
whatever, some romances always feel like they concentrates enormous
power, emotional and otherwise, in the hands of the PC.  This is
especially egregious in "therapy romances" like Paragon Jack, Viconia if
redeemed, Aerie, arguably Thane, etc.  One partner wielding that much
control over the other is kinda disturbing.

I have a severe fondness for laid back characters who go with the flow.

Yeah this is a difference in opinion. I don't see any of that. Frankly I find it to be odd when the PC and NPC are equally powerful and there's never any nasty differences of opinion.

Though I agree with you about a therapist romance. That's just...urgh. But it's not so much the other partner being somewhat weak (because I have no problems with a character being weak oddly) but the manipulation on the behalf of the PC. It's not the fact that they and the PC are in a relationship that bothers me but if the relationship is based off manipulation yes it is a little weird. That said a relationship can be like that with relative equals.

And honestly quite a few of the ME2 romances are theraphy romances hell I saw Miranda's romance veering into that terrority a few times with regards to her self-esteem.

Maybe that's why so many of my Sheps stick with ME1 romances or stay single...

Though yes its your usage of the word badass that threw me off. One doesn't have to be badass to stand up to someone.

(Not to mention I correlate badass with fighting ability).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 janvier 2011 - 10:28 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ryzaki wrote...
Though yes its your usage of the word badass that threw me off. One doesn't have to be badass to stand up to someone.

Then it's my fault for choosing my words poorly. Sorry about that--it's 3:30 AM here in my defense 

And we can just chalk it up to a difference of preference and move on.  Like you and everyone else, my RL experience also informs my attitude toward romances, and it has soured me somewhat on relationships where the partners aren't, for lack of a better phrase, more obvious equals.  And I do think it's somewhat easier to treat one another with respect, understanding, affection, etc. if there isn't a severe imbalance in the badassery (in a broad sense) of the characters.

I'm also gonna drop the Carth thing.  Suffice it to say that I think he's a well-written, well-acted character who was very much not my cup of tea 

[Ryzaki]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
Then it's my fault for choosing my words poorly. Sorry about that--it's 3:30 AM here in my defense 

And we can just chalk it up to a difference of preference and move on.  Like you and everyone else, my RL experience also informs my attitude toward romances, and it has soured me somewhat on relationships where the partners aren't, for lack of a better phrase, more obvious equals.  And I do think it's somewhat easier to treat one another with respect, understanding, affection, etc. if there isn't a severe imbalance in the badassery (in a broad sense) of the characters.

I'm also gonna drop the Carth thing.  Suffice it to say that I think he's a well-written, well-acted character who was very much not my cup of tea 

Lol that's okay.

Ah see I always found equalism to lead to more strife oddly enough. I'm very much a D&S person personally.  Or well my Shepard is. And like you RL has soured my views on those relationships. Probably the reason why I can't see either alot of the LIs being any good for Shep.

Aw...I like debating Carth! Though yes I can see why he wasn't. So many times I would wish Canderous was an LI.

[MsSihaKatieKrios]

Honestly speaking, you don't need to be equal to have a great relationship. You feed off each other's strength's, and support each other's weaknesses. Cheesy as hell, I know, but it's working for me and my boyfriend. That's why Shep and Miri will probably work well.

[jtav]

It's not a matter of being badass, It's a matter of Shepard showing some emotional vulnerability. Take the promise scene. Miranda--always in control Miranda--has let her guard down and has admitted she's scared of losing you. But Shepard isn't given the option of expressing anxiety of his own. According to Liara, he's changed her, but she can't do likewise for him. He comes down from on high, deals with her problems, and there's never a moment where she comforts him in return. I don't want that.

[Ieldra]

The main shortcoming is what jtav mentioned. Shepard is the agent, Miranda the recipient in those scenes, and there's never any opportunity to reciprocate. Something akin to the locker scene in ME1 would make that much less of a concern.



Beyond that, however, I would like to express my preference for an LI who is, while not exactly an equal, at least on the same power level as Shepard. I've expressed that as "walking at his side instead of just following him". I like the option of having someone on the same level as an LI, and Miranda is the only character that comes close, the only candidate for such a relationship. That's so rare in games - much rarer than in books or even on TV - that it deserves special mention. It's a big part of why I am a Miranda fan, that image that she brings out the best in him as well as the other way round, that together they are more than the sum of their parts, that Shepard alone might be the ultimate badass, but Shepard and Miranda together complement each other to be so much more, almost a force of nature. It'd be the first time I get that in a game, and it's absolutely addictive.

[jtav]

I appreciate that Miranda is in Shepard's weight class in terms of power and competence. They're excellent partners who complement each other beautifully. Shepard is the heart. Miranda is the mind. Both are better together than alone because they can cover for the other's weaknesses. It's only when I consider the romance itself that I think she deserves better.