15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

*blinks* I'm personally failing to see Miranda covering any of Shepard's weaknesses personally. Ironically the only one I see who does that is to my utter disturbance TIM.

[Elyvern]

Miranda is the perfect foil for a paragon/paragade Shepard. And there are so many examples where she plays devil's advocate, a sounding board for Shepard's decision. Alot of them happen after the crew gets abducted. A paragon/paragad-ish Shepard may feel compelled to go save the crew at the expense of building up the team and possibly dying at the suicide mission. MIranda always gives the other point of view-- that the mission comes first, that everyone, including the crew sign up knowing full well the possibility of dying. (I've played it both ways and both scenes with and without a full complement of upgrades, squadmates, LMs done, plays very differently) This continues at the base where Shepard may be compelled to send an escort off with the crew, but again, she is the one pointing out that the suicide mission comes first and they may not have manpower to spare for the crew.

[Ryzaki]

Hm...I suppose it depends on how you play your Shepard. A lot of her advice particularly for my paragon/paragade Shepard was something he already knew or found to be rather cold and wasn't going to consider (or in most cases both).

Though about the crew I always have all the loyalty missions and the like done by then so she's already set to go get the crew. Her yelling at Joker actually lessened alot of my respect for her. You'd think she'd be logical enough to realize Joker actually did more than they could've asked for considering the guy can barely run.

Though yes her pointing that out was good but to my perspective not overly vital. (I could've sworn we debated this before).

The problem with considering any character a foil of Shepard is that Shepard being so malleable and so open to interpretation in instances makes trying to make a foil of him/her worthless.

For every instance of valuable advice for one Shepard she could be simply stating the obvious for another.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 janvier 2011 - 06:45 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ryzaki wrote...
The problem with considering any character a foil of Shepard is that Shepard being so malleable and so open to interpretation in instances makes trying to make a foil of him/her worthless.

For every instance of valuable advice for one Shepard she could be simply stating the obvious for another.

And that's why some characters who IMO were intended to be foils of some sort (Miranda, DA:O's Morrigan, Bastila, etc.) tend to be polarizing.  What works for one protagonist  does not work for another.  Miranda works as a foil to my warmhearted but impulsive Renegon, and she's right in step with my utilitarian Paragade--I swear they were separated at birth or something, they're so scarily similar sometimes.  But I can definitely see how she might not do it for a Shep.  

[Sable Rhapsody]

Grr. Double post.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 05 janvier 2011 - 07:13 .

[Elyvern]

Warmhearted but impulsive renegon and utilitarian paragade sound like oxymorons.

But getting back to the point, you may not like what she says, you may consider her too callous, but the fact is she's there to give you an opposite viewpoint and she substantiates her perspective. It's up to you whether you want to accept it or not, but you cannot discount the validity of her views.

The part where she rants at Joker, you can arguably say that is a knee jerk reaction. She was visibly shocked and taken aback by the loss of the crew. She didn't try to rationalise it and didn't push the issue when told of Joker's problems. It's a rare lapse of judgement in an emotional situation, not her normal modus operandi.  

[LuxDragon]

Or you could also say that the mission was a hair width away from failing miserably. Personally, I'd be right pissed too. At him, at myself, at everything really.

It's all right though. Everyone calmed down in the end and still did the job. The Normandy was ready to go sans crew after all.

[Ryzaki]

Elyvern wrote...

Warmhearted but impulsive renegon and utilitarian paragade sound like oxymorons.

But getting back to the point, you may not like what she says, you may consider her too callous, but the fact is she's there to give you an opposite viewpoint and she substantiates her perspective. It's up to you whether you want to accept it or not, but you cannot discount the validity of her views.

The part where she rants at Joker, you can arguably say that is a knee jerk reaction. She was visibly shocked and taken aback by the loss of the crew. She didn't try to rationalise it and didn't push the issue when told of Joker's problems. It's a rare lapse of judgement in an emotional situation, not her normal modus operandi.  

But that's the point. With some Sheps there is no opposite viewpoint. (Particularly renegades and even then with Paragons I still may have thought about it but weighed the pros and cons and decided it was worth the risk). Her going it's a risk to send someone with the crew wasn't as much advice to me as stating the obvious. The same with the tech expert. It's not as though you pick the paragon option and then she says it, she says it before you've even done anything one way or another. (In my renegade games I find myself constantly sighing and going "yes I know that already. Can you please stop stating the obvious?") *isn't even going into the biotic bubble fiasco again* Then again ME as a whole tends to beat you over the head with information.

And I didn't discount them. I simply said they're not necessarily a foil for Shepard's own views.

And yes I know that too but she doesn't even apologize later. Something I would expect someone who made a lapse in judgement to do. Had she apologized I would've been fine with it.

Heck she's fine for my renegade (who I don't doubt she can't stand) but my Paragons/Paragades keep a casual, respectful but very distant relationship with her. (They don't take her with them to the HR so their impression never improves).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 janvier 2011 - 09:04 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Elyvern wrote...

Warmhearted but impulsive renegon and utilitarian paragade sound like oxymorons.   

It's all about picking your dialogue options carefully.  ME2's morality system is a little difficult to work with, but based on what my Sheps actually say and do in game, it works.

For example, my Renegon actually goes Paragon for a fair number of major game decisions--Rachni queen, Feros colony, a lot of the loyalty missions, etc.  He cares about his crew and treats them like family.  He does, however, tend to punch reporters, yell at Admiralty Boards, run his mouth to the point of racism, and generally make a bit of an impulsive ass of himself.  I love it when Miranda calls him an ass, he totally deserves it 

[Ieldra]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
It's all about picking your dialogue options carefully.  ME2's morality system is a little difficult to work with, but based on what my Sheps actually say and do in game, it works.

For example, my Renegon actually goes Paragon for a fair number of major game decisions--Rachni queen, Feros colony, a lot of the loyalty missions, etc.  He cares about his crew and treats them like family.  He does, however, tend to punch reporters, yell at Admiralty Boards, run his mouth to the point of racism, and generally make a bit of an impulsive ass of himself.  I love it when Miranda calls him an ass, he totally deserves it 

That sounds not too far from my Renegon. I also made some major Paragon decisions in ME1. He's not actually impulsive as a rule, but deliberately uses intimidation as a tool, and only loses his patience with political bull****. Yelling at the Admiralty board felt very much IC.

In ME2, no, Miranda wasn't a foil for him but they were a perfect team nonetheless, always aware of the alternatives that existed. That Miranda tended to state the obvious he didn't hold against her in the light of his actions in ME1. They're still learning about each other.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ieldra2 wrote...
That sounds not too far from my Renegon. I also made some major Paragon decisions in ME1. He's not actually impulsive as a rule, but deliberately uses intimidation as a tool, and only loses his patience with political bull****. Yelling at the Admiralty board felt very much IC.

In ME2, no, Miranda wasn't a foil for him but they were a perfect team nonetheless, always aware of the alternatives that existed. That Miranda tended to state the obvious he didn't hold against her in the light of his actions in ME1. They're still learning about each other.

I think mine's more of a blatant jerk than yours is, and certainly more immature   I don't usually get to use Crouching Moron Hidden Badass, Knight in Sour Armor, and Jerkass With A Heart of Gold for PC character tropes, so I kinda binged on them with my Renegon.  He's basically Mal Reynolds with more of Jayne's jerkassery.

[Prudii Aden]

Yep, yelling at the Admiralty Board is fun, although first time through I got the audience to help.  I like to think that the reason why Miranda and my Shep get along is because he's a Combat Pragmatist, with a sideline in disproportionate retribution...:innocent:

[Ieldra]

Prudii Aden wrote...

Yep, yelling at the Admiralty Board is fun, although first time through I got the audience to help.  I like to think that the reason why Miranda and my Shep get along is because he's a Combat Pragmatist, with a sideline in disproportionate retribution...:innocent:

In combat, my main maleShep is very much as pragmatic as Miranda, which is why they work together seamlessly. In the storyline decisions, they often don't agree (sending an escort with the crew, not giving Veetor to Cerberus, keeping Legion), but that also works very well because it makes sure all options always are on the table. He also doesn't take her making her recommendations personal like so many of those obsessive moralizers do. That even applies to the control chip. Sure he wouldn't have liked it, but he understands her reasoning and in the end it didn't happen, so there's no reason to get obsessed over it. After all, in her situation, the option would have been in his mind as well. Asked if he wouldn't gone through with such a thing, he'd answer: "I don't know. Possibly. I'm just glad I didn't have to make the decision." 

[Sinapus]

Prudii Aden wrote...

Yep, yelling at the Admiralty Board is fun, although first time through I got the audience to help.  I like to think that the reason why Miranda and my Shep get along is because he's a Combat Pragmatist, with a sideline in disproportionate retribution...:innocent:

So your MaleShep is Sousuke Sagara and your Miranda is Chidori Kaname? (...with biotics. FLEE! )

[Prudii Aden]

Sinapus wrote...
So your MaleShep is Sousuke Sagara and your Miranda is Chidori Kaname? (...with biotics. FLEE! )

Who? What? Huh?

[Prudii Aden]

Ieldra2 wrote...
In combat, my main maleShep is very much as pragmatic as Miranda, which is why they work together seamlessly. In the storyline decisions, they often don't agree (sending an escort with the crew, not giving Veetor to Cerberus, keeping Legion), but that also works very well because it makes sure all options always are on the table. He also doesn't take her making her recommendations personal like so many of those obsessive moralizers do. That even applies to the control chip. Sure he wouldn't have liked it, but he understands her reasoning and in the end it didn't happen, so there's no reason to get obsessed over it. After all, in her situation, the option would have been in his mind as well. Asked if he wouldn't gone through with such a thing, he'd answer: "I don't know. Possibly. I'm just glad I didn't have to make the decision." 

Yep - he appreciates Miranda because she actually makes the potentially unpopular option heard, even if he's not going to agree with it. Likewise, with the whole control chip, he can see where she's coming from, but as she didn't do it, doesn't see any point in getting stressed about it. It never happened, so why worry? There's gigatons and gigatons of other stuff to worry about!

[goofyomnivore]

Stopping in to ask a question. I know it is some what off topic to the current convo. I need see if I'm crazy or not.

What do you guys think of romancing Miranda as a Sole Survivor? I understand how some(maybe almost everyone?) think that makes almost no sense, but I like it a lot and has been one of my more engaging ME1 and ME2 playthroughs so far.

Here is my brief justification; keeping it short cus this a forum not my imagination/fanfic I'm talking/thinking to, so don't want to rant/type you guys to death.

1) Akuze was years ago. My Shepard had dealt with it and moved on as well as he could. Still doesn't like to talk about it openly very much. Akuze is pretty much why he joined the N7 program and chose to master his craft. It was a coping mechanism(focused on training/next mission) and motivation to not let another Akuze happen, by being prepared mentally and physically for any situation to protect his comrades, so it would be fair to say he does have some survivor syndrome. Although he has dealt with it the best he could and has been looking forward into the future. Dwelling on it wouldn't honor his comrades and would make their deaths a waste.

2)Then UNC: Dead Scientists happens. I'm a practical/pragmatic player. I try not waste resources. I prefer to operate with my mind rather than my heart in most cases. That case got the best of Shepard. Toombs killed Dr. Wayne and then killed himself, so I judge that event as my Shepard failing, not only himself and Toombs, but the ones who died on Akuze. By letting his own personal rage/feelings severe the truth/justice coming out. Selfish revenge for him and Toombs, but what about those who died and their families? None for them.

3)Rebuilt by Cerberus and awakes very cautious and unreceptive, but begins to rationalize their goals and what is at stake. Losing the galaxy out of rage/feelings for Cerberus and Akuze isn't what he wants. Initial dialogue with Miranda and Cerberus is kind of "snarky or sarcastic". Shepard comes to terms that this mission can be the first steps of  redemption for Cerberus, and it can also help Shepard come to peace with UNC: Dead Scientists/Akuze. Begins to admire Miranda's strengths and goals, and realizes they are quite a like. Both want the best for humanity, pragmatic, etc. Although Shepard still doesn't trust TIM, and if given the chance he will probably replace TIM with Shepard and/or Miranda in ME3, and give Cerberus some reforms, but keeping the core goal of enhancing humanity's strength in the galaxy.

Short as I could make it -- missing a lot of details that go into headcanons, fanfic, and just my general imagination, but does it at least make some sense kind of? That a Sole Survivor Shepard could develop feelings for Miranda.

edit; fixed formatting -- P.S. with all the money you're going to be racking in this year(DA2, SWTOR, ME3) you should totally fix you forums formatting problems BioWare. .

Modifié par strive, 06 janvier 2011 - 02:18 .

[MsSihaKatieKrios]

Oh god...I've just read some trollfic called 'Subject 23' on ff.net and I'm seriously regretting it now...I think my IQ just dropped from 170 to 70 after reading that POS and I think I have PTSD now...it's that bad. The writer is the definition of a Miranda hater, I swear. Someone help me.

[jtav]

The proper response to dreadful stories is to ignore them. That said, I did find it to be a fairly standard hate fic. Shame, really. Miranda would make for a fantastic villain with only a little tweaking. Give her her way about the control chip, don't kill her off in the first chapter, and you're golden. She is ruthless and she really does believe what she does is necessary. In the right hands, that's terrifying.

[Ieldra]

strive wrote...
Stopping in to ask a question. I know it is some what off topic to the current convo. I need see if I'm crazy or not.

What do you guys think of romancing Miranda as a Sole Survivor? I understand how some(maybe almost everyone?) think that makes almost no sense, but I like it a lot and has been one of my more engaging ME1 and ME2 playthroughs so far.

My canon maleSbep is a Sole Survivor who romanced Miranda. Here's my reasoning:

(1) My Shepard wasn't as scarred by Akuze as some people seem to assume. He wants to know how it came about and who was responsible, but emotionally it is behind him.
(2) He's glad that Toombs has survived as well. Having killed Dr.Wayne also gave some closure.
(3) While Miranda works for Cerberus, she isn't the one responsible.
(4) Cerberus has brought him back from the dead. It may be to serve their purposes, but he appreciates it nonetheless. In fact, that it's Miranda who brought him back makes the romance more awkward than any Akuze connection.
(5) He is pragmatic. Whatever its past, there is need for an organization like Cerberus, and Miranda is one of their best in more ways than one. He hopes that Cerberus resources can be kept after it is taken down and brought into a new organization with less of a bad name and fewer atrocities after the Reapers are dealt with, by Miranda.

I can only say that thinking about this has made my Shepard more detailed and more interesting.

[jtav]

I concocted an explanation using Grunt's LM. Best buddy Wrex knowingly sent him to face a thresher maw. Cerberus lapdog Miranda risked her life to save him from it when he suffered a flashback. It's enough to get him to re-evaluate her.

[jtav]

I've been making my way through Retribution. I see Miranda as pretty dark, but she's a saint compared to every other non-Lazarus Cell operative. She's also apparently the only competent project lead they have. I do think TIM will be extracting some form of revenge on her if she resigned--probably through Oriana. I fear for her.

[Sable Rhapsody]

jtav wrote...

I've been making my way through Retribution. I see Miranda as pretty dark, but she's a saint compared to every other non-Lazarus Cell operative. She's also apparently the only competent project lead they have. I do think TIM will be extracting some form of revenge on her if she resigned--probably through Oriana. I fear for her.

...well, and Retribution handed every Cerberus person within it (including TIM) the Idiot Ball, the Villain Ball, or some combination thereof 

[Markinator_123]

jtav wrote...

I've been making my way through Retribution. I see Miranda as pretty dark, but she's a saint compared to every other non-Lazarus Cell operative. She's also apparently the only competent project lead they have. I do think TIM will be extracting some form of revenge on her if she resigned--probably through Oriana. I fear for her.

It makes no sense for her to resign anyway. It is a real shame that she of all people lets her emotions cloud her judgement.

Modifié par Markinator_123, 06 janvier 2011 - 08:04 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I've been making my way through Retribution. I see Miranda as pretty dark, but she's a saint compared to every other non-Lazarus Cell operative. She's also apparently the only competent project lead they have. I do think TIM will be extracting some form of revenge on her if she resigned--probably through Oriana. I fear for her.

I don't since she usually doesn't resign in my games. I don't know how we're going to deal with Cerberus in ME3, but I'd like to imagine that Miranda and Shepard will go on the offensive against TIM even if they didn't destroy the base. I'd like the game to acknowledge that keeping the base doesn't mean that I endorse Cerberus' policies. Either that, or TIM really comes through with new technology against the Reapers. Yeah, as if that would happen, given how the idiot ball appears to be written into every Cerberus cell leader but Miranda.  

BTW, I like your explanation for the Sole Survivor being sympathetic to Miranda.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 janvier 2011 - 08:07 .