15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Mr.House wrote...
Miranda's biotics are not natural, it's imposable. Oriana's age is 19, this put's Miranda at 32 to 38, this means even when she was made she did not have her boitics. This means that later in her life her father made her a biotic by force(which could explain why she dislikes him so much and other reasons like not having a proper childhood and no love from her father)

I'm with you so far. I've always thought he adapted that surgical procedure by which some krogan become biotics. That appears to be almost consensus in this thread (anyone, speak up if you don't agree).

Now look at Mr.Lawson's point of view. His daughter while a strong biotic, he could have a much stronger biotic if they where made with it already, this is one possible reason he wanted to replace her. We also know Miranda is not the only daughter Mr.Lawson made, she was the only one he kept, this means that he considered them failures, what happen to them we don't know. SO he started to make Oriana, now biotics are most likely not the only reason why Mr.Lawson wanted to replace Miranda of course. There is probably a lot of reasons why, but biotics are one of the reasons.

Actually, I've always thought the "artifical biotics" are the stronger, because the process of incorporating eezo into the body is more controlled. That's the reason why Miranda's biotic abilities are - as she says - impressive for a human. She wouldn't say that if she were the weaker version of, say, Kaidan.

At some point, her father likely considered Miranda a failure, else he wouldn't have made Oriana, but for which reason he did is anyone's guess. I don't think her biotics come into it. If that were a major factor, then Oriana would be a biotic - a stronger one than Miranda. Which might still happen, but I don't think it will.

As for Ieldra's question on why I consider Miranda a more harden version Kaidan, both where alive when biotics where still new and people didn't know the potential they could have. Kaidan and a bunch of biotics where treated like test rabbits on Jump Zero, and the project ended badly with Kaidan killing his instructor, however Kaidan came to terms with his life and jonied the Alliance. Miranda a however had a harder time and instead of going with the Alliance she went with Cerberus because they helped her sister and in her eyes they where the reason why Oriana was safe. Miranda then worked with Cerberus and became ruthless, while still having a soft side for her sister. This is the opposite of Kaidan. Again this is my feeling on the matter.

Interesting. I do think they have personality aspects as well as biotic power in common, but I wouldn't go so far as to say Miranda is a hardened version of Kaidan. I also think that Miranda is on the way to deal with the ghost of her father, and that Kaidan can be pretty pragmatic if he wants to be. He's a man of reason, just like Miranda. I also think Miranda had to have a degree of ruthlessness to escape from her father. I definitely do *not* like the notion that Cerberus shaped her personality to that degree.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 janvier 2011 - 10:24 .

[Ieldra]

Pacifien wrote...
I don't like the idea that her father wanted to replace her. That cheapens the reason why she ran away in the first place. If it was because her father was intent on replacing her, she was simply running for her life. I prefer to think she ran away of her own free will because she wants to create her own destiny.

Miranda says Oriana was meant to replace her in the first elevator conversation on her loyalty mission.



@Yannkee:
Nice new wallpaper

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 janvier 2011 - 10:20 .

[Elyvern]

Pacifien wrote...

I don't like the idea that her father wanted to replace her. That cheapens the reason why she ran away in the first place. If it was because her father was intent on replacing her, she was simply running for her life. I prefer to think she ran away of her own free will because she wants to create her own destiny.

Nonetheless, there are two factors that seems to substantiate the fact that yes, her father might have wanted to replace her. First is, Oriana was grew when Miranda was a teenager. Second, if she wasn't a replacement, why did her father insist on getting Oriana back specifically and not Miranda? If she was that valuable to him, he'd have done more than sever ties Cerberus, wouldn't you think? Unless of course, unknown to Miranda, he never did sever ties with Cerberus...

@Ieldra - interesting notion that because Miranda was intentionally engineered to be a biotic, with an even distribution of eezo nodules, her biotics may actually be stronger than Kaidan's. However, I have to wonder if a difference in bioamp implants could make up for the difference? Both Miranda and Kaidan are of the same age to be using L2s, except she doesn't seem to suffer any side effects at all. Or perhaps she opted for the dangerous procedure of removing those and replacing them with L3s (which would be less effective), or L4s-5s (no idea how they compare to L2s).

Modifié par Elyvern, 08 janvier 2011 - 10:27 .

[jtav]

I think Kaidan is in some ways a Paragon version of Miranda. They both define themselves as members of organizations that don't really deserve them ("I'm an Alliance soldier, always will be/"I believe that what Cerberus stands for"), They're both idealistic in their way, but it's a considered idealism. Neither of them tends to make decisions on the basis of emotion, though this is not an absolute rule. Both express some degree of willingness to work with aliens and a respect for the Council races. But Miranda is much more ruthless than Kaidan is. She follows procedure only as far as it's effective. He's more by the book, with a less single-minded focus on his mission. He's far more likely to go out of his way to help people. They have very similar personalities, but very different moralities.

[Ieldra]

@Elyvern:
I don't want to get into a pissing contest as to who has the stronger biotics. For that reason I only said she wasn't weaker than Kaidan (since MrHouse hypothesized that the lacking strength of her biotics may have been a reason to replace her). As far as I'm concerned, they may both be extraordinary, only Miranda by design, and Kaidan by an extraordinary piece of luck.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 janvier 2011 - 10:34 .

[Pacifien]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Miranda says Oriana was meant to replace her in the first elevator conversation on her loyalty mission.

Yeah, I know. Because she left, her father wasn't going to get her back, and so he needed to then replace her.

[jtav]

I think Miranda and Kaidan are roughly equal when it comes to biotic power.Kaidan is stated to be roughly as powerful as an asari commando when he isn't holding back, but his migraines do hamper him somewhat. Miranda biotics.don't come with the physical side effects (or in my case, don't anymore) so I'd give her the edge in endurance because of that and her genetic optimization. So Kaidan for raw power, and Miranda for stamina, but the difference would be unlikely to be noticeable under ordinary circumstances.

[Pacifien]

I think Miranda being a part of Cerberus would ensure she has access to the very best in biotic implants, so even if she is of the age to be an L2, she's long since replaced them for better.

However, I have a very strong opinion about the ages shown on the ME2 website which is they're crap. In every shape or form. They're crap in the way the entire timeline of events for ME is crap. Miranda's not 35 to me because it doesn't make sense for her to be 35. It makes sense for her to be grown at an accelerated rate much as Grunt was so she has the appearance of being 35.

Although, to be honest, it would have simply made more sense if she hadn't been a biotic.

Modifié par Pacifien, 08 janvier 2011 - 10:46 .

[Ieldra]

Pacifien wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Miranda says Oriana was meant to replace her in the first elevator conversation on her loyalty mission.

Yeah, I know. Because she left, her father wasn't going to get her back, and so he needed to then replace her.

That would mean that she went back to snatch Oriana some time after she ran away. That seems unlikely. It would also lower the age when she ran, possibly under the believable limit.

[Pacifien]

Ieldra2 wrote...
That would mean that she went back to snatch Oriana some time after she ran away. That seems unlikely. It would also lower the age when she ran, possibly under the believable limit.

I wouldn't be surprised if their father had a series of clones in various stages of development. At what point did he grow each of Miranda's predecessors only to determine they weren't worthy of being kept? And I do believe he would have made use of accelerated growth.

[MsSihaKatieKrios]

I still think the infertility is bullsh*t...I mean, in the dossier it was mentioned that Miranda had 'benign neoplasm' caused by 'progressive damage'...but it's already a contradiction! If it was progressive, it wouldn't be a benign tumor, it'd be a malignant one as it's still growing. Benign ones are considered benign because they DONT grow, unlike malignant ones.



I saw a theory on ME wikia that sounded quite interesting. What if the infertility message was actually a coded message from another Cerberus operative to Miranda? Also brought up was how ridiculous it was that Miranda's a top Cerberus operative, but she had the most amount of messages intercepted by SB. So what do you guys and fellow gals think?

[fongiel24]

Miranda doesn't appear 35 though. She looks more like that's in her mid to late twenties. I find it quite easy to believe that she's chronologically 35 and biologically about 25-ish.



As far as her biotics go, I'd place her and Kaidan about equal in raw power, giving Kaidan a bit of an edge in experience (due to the fact he's a soldier who probably uses his biotics in a combat capacity more often compared to Miranda) and Miranda an edge in control (due to Cerberus' cutting edge tech).

[Pacifien]

fongiel24 wrote...
Miranda doesn't appear 35 though. She looks more like that's in her mid to late twenties. I find it quite easy to believe that she's chronologically 35 and biologically about 25-ish.

She doesn't look 35 by today's standards. She's 35 by the standards of 2185 maybe. I don't know what that means for Zaeed being 40. Probably that the ages given on the ME2 website are bull****.

[jtav]

I rather like the infertility, but that's a discussion for another day. I'm more or less discarding it in my current story so I can go back to my pet theory of making her an L2 who had to suffer chronic pain for years before she upgraded. This is my pre-DLC conception of Miranda, and I figured I may as well go all the way.

[fongiel24]

MsSihaKatieKrios wrote...

I saw a theory on ME wikia that sounded quite interesting. What if the infertility message was actually a coded message from another Cerberus operative to Miranda? Also brought up was how ridiculous it was that Miranda's a top Cerberus operative, but she had the most amount of messages intercepted by SB. So what do you guys and fellow gals think?

The note from the doctor being a coded message would be an interesting idea but I don't think Bioware was trying to be subtle here. If it was a coded message, Bioware's writers would have it lead to something, which it doesn't.

It makes sense that Miranda would have more messages intercepted by the SB if she's a top Cerberus operative. Miranda's good, but the SB's network has been in the information business for millenia and that's the only thing he does. Access wouldn't be a problem for him. After all, this guy knows how many drinks TIM has had each day. It makes sense that he would pay extra attention to Cerberus' top operatives and thus have more intercepted communications from them. Given limited resources, he's not going to waste them on a low level Cerberus minion.

[Elyvern]

Pacifien wrote...

I think Miranda being a part of Cerberus would ensure she has access to the very best in biotic implants, so even if she is of the age to be an L2, she's long since replaced them for better.

However, I have a very strong opinion about the ages shown on the ME2 website which is they're crap. In every shape or form. They're crap in the way the entire timeline of events for ME is crap. Miranda's not 35 to me because it doesn't make sense for her to be 35. It makes sense for her to be grown at an accelerated rate much as Grunt was so she has the appearance of being 35.

Although, to be honest, it would have simply made more sense if she hadn't been a biotic.

Apart from a few exceptions (Zaeed, Grunt, Mordin), the ages on the ME2 website aren't out of this world unbelievable for me. For example, personally I can't imagine Miranda as being younger than 30 simply because of how ridiculously skilled and knowledgeable she is. She has wide ranging expertise in many fields, and deeply technical fields at that--biological sciences,  computer and networking, firearms and covert operations, not to mention management capabilities and an understanding of logistics and bureaucracy to become XO of a ship. Some might even say 35 is pushing it in terms of how reasonable a human, even a prodigy, can acquire all that knowledge and expertise.

[aeetos21]

less talky, more pictures

edit: is it just me or does Miranda's boob look slightly bigger than normal (I mean even if she is stripping)

Modifié par aeetos21, 08 janvier 2011 - 11:00 .

[Ieldra]

Pacifien wrote...
I think Miranda being a part of Cerberus would ensure she has access to the very best in biotic implants, so even if she is of the age to be an L2, she's long since replaced them for better.

Implants, as opposed to bioamps, apparently aren't replaced that easily. The L3R retrofits were said to be dangerous. I think she has a unique prototype implant that was never retrofitted.

However, I have a very strong opinion about the ages shown on the ME2 website which is they're crap. In every shape or form. They're crap in the way the entire timeline of events for ME is crap. Miranda's not 35 to me because it doesn't make sense for her to be 35. It makes sense for her to be grown at an accelerated rate much as Grunt was so she has the appearance of being 35.

That does not make sense. She had a childhood and an education, and a friend she's known since the time before she ran away from her father. All that takes time and a history. Nowhere is it said she had those imprints Grunt had. If someone on Earth had that force-growth technology back then, it would surely be known better at present.
I do agree that the ME general timeline is crap. Miranda's only has one problematic element, which I think is more easily explained by her having had surgery at an age of 8 to 10 in order to make her biotic.

Although, to be honest, it would have simply made more sense if she hadn't been a biotic.

Her backstory would have been easier to explain, but IMO her backstory becomes so much more interesting when we have to figure out how she got her biotics.

Edit:
I also agree with Elyvern's post above.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 janvier 2011 - 11:01 .

[fongiel24]

A lot of the given ages in ME2 are really pushing it in terms of plausibility. I think one of the devs once mentioned the really WTF-ish alien ages are only meant as analogous guidelines to their mental and emotional maturity based on human ages but Zaeed is human. Forty is far too young for Zaeed to have done as much as he's claimed to have done. It also makes him only nine years older than Shepard, meaning his line about Jessie being Shepard's age would imply Zaeed acquired it and began his soldiering career at... the age of nine.

Shepard being 29 in ME1 and having attained the rank of Commander is a tad farfetched as well, if the Alliance promotions system is anything like that of real world militaries.

Modifié par fongiel24, 08 janvier 2011 - 11:05 .

[Ieldra]

fongiel24 wrote...

MsSihaKatieKrios wrote...

I saw a theory on ME wikia that sounded quite interesting. What if the infertility message was actually a coded message from another Cerberus operative to Miranda? Also brought up was how ridiculous it was that Miranda's a top Cerberus operative, but she had the most amount of messages intercepted by SB. So what do you guys and fellow gals think?

The note from the doctor being a coded message would be an interesting idea but I don't think Bioware was trying to be subtle here. If it was a coded message, Bioware's writers would have it lead to something, which it doesn't.

It makes sense that Miranda would have more messages intercepted by the SB if she's a top Cerberus operative. Miranda's good, but the SB's network has been in the information business for millenia and that's the only thing he does. Access wouldn't be a problem for him. After all, this guy knows how many drinks TIM has had each day. It makes sense that he would pay extra attention to Cerberus' top operatives and thus have more intercepted communications from them. Given limited resources, he's not going to waste them on a low level Cerberus minion.

I agree that Bioware isn't that subtle, but I consider those overblown examples of the SB's knowledge parodies.

[Pacifien]

Elyvern wrote...
Apart from a few exceptions (Zaeed, Grunt, Mordin), the ages on the ME2 website aren't out of this world unbelievable for me. For example, personally I can't imagine Miranda as being younger than 30 simply because of how ridiculously skilled and knowledgeable she is. She has wide ranging expertise in many fields, and deeply technical fields at that--biological sciences,  computer and networking, firearms and covert operations, not to mention management capabilities and an understanding of logistics and bureaucracy to become XO of a ship. Some might even say 35 is pushing it in terms of how reasonable a human, even a prodigy, can acquire all that knowledge and expertise.

If I were to say that I took exception to the ages of Grunt, Miranda, Mordin, Samara, and Zaeed, I'd be taking exception to half of them, which is a wide margin of error to me.

If Miranda were Shepard's age, I could have accepted it because that puts her biotics out of the range of Kaidan's experiences and more in range with whatever oddity an adept Shepard would have experienced. Being a biotic is what defines the life of any biotic human (or other species outside of the asari), and yet with Miranda she just is. She could have just as easily not been a biotic and her story would not have changed at all. And then I wouldn't have yet another element in the overall story that makes me cringe at the condensed timeline.

[Pacifien]

Ieldra2 wrote...
That does not make sense. She had a childhood and an education, and a friend she's known since the time before she ran away from her father. All that takes time and a history. Nowhere is it said she had those imprints Grunt had. If someone on Earth had that force-growth technology back then, it would surely be known better at present.

Comparing her to Grunt was obviously a mistake on my part as I did not mean to make it a direct comparison, as in her being grown to adult size. She could just as easily grow through the child-phase at a quicker rate, reaching full grown size in, say, half the time as a normal human.

What I simply don't like about Miranda's backstory is her biotics in comparison to what we learn about biotics in the first game, because I think it cheapens the story of those biotics and decreases the unique aspect of being a biotic. People have to create their own backstory to explain it, but I think something as life-defining as biotics should have been explained in the game. It's an element left to fanfics that I think shouldn't have been left to fanfics. I can see why they don't explain it for an Adept Shepard, because they try to leave as much of Shepard's story to the player's imagination.

Modifié par Pacifien, 08 janvier 2011 - 11:15 .

[jtav]

I rather like the biotics angle because it means her father must have subjected her to what amounted to medical torture because the only plausible way she is a biotic is a procedure that's killed krogan. And it worked. She really is a gifted biotic. It really brings home the fact that she's suffered for her gifts. Though I think the most likely explanation is that the developers forgot that she couldn't have been exposed to eezo in utero because of the way she was created and that the link wasn't known until she was eight years old.



Even discarding the website, Miranda must be between thirty-two and thirty-eight. Oriana is nineteen, and Miranda fled as a teenager. I suppose it's possible that Miranda was artificially aged, but that requires twisting things even more.

[Ieldra]

Pacifien wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
That does not make sense. She had a childhood and an education, and a friend she's known since the time before she ran away from her father. All that takes time and a history. Nowhere is it said she had those imprints Grunt had. If someone on Earth had that force-growth technology back then, it would surely be known better at present.

Comparing her to Grunt was obviously a mistake on my part as I did not mean to make it a direct comparison, as in her being grown to adult size. She could just as easily grow through the child-phase at a quicker rate, reaching full grown size in, say, half the time as a normal human.

As I said, it would remove an interesting puzzle from her backstory. Your explanation is certainly possible, but that would have surely been mentioned somewhere. On Grunt's recruitment mission if nowhere else. It also presupposes a technology available to humans that we see as cutting edge-technology in ME2 a few decades later.
Then there's Oriana. She's 19 and was grown when Miranda was a teenager. OK, with your theory you might be able to shave off a few years of her age, enough to make her a standard biotic, but she'd still be about 30. Also, without Grunt-style imprints she'd be stunted in her development, even if the force-growth accounted to "only" five years or so. 

What I simply don't like about Miranda's backstory is her biotics in comparison to what we learn about biotics in the first game, because I think it cheapens the story of those biotics and decreases the unique aspect of being a biotic. People have to create their own backstory to explain it, but I think something as life-defining as biotics should have been explained in the game. It's an element left to fanfics that I think shouldn't have been left to fanfics. I can see why they don't explain it for an Adept Shepard, because they try to leave as much of Shepard's story to the player's imagination.

I have to say I've grown quite attached to the scenario we have created here. It explains the puzzle while using only technology explicitly mentioned in the Codex and doesn't presuppose anything else. It would have been quite a bit less interesting had we been presented with the "solution" by the game.
I also don't agree that her example cheapens the other biotics' stories. Miranda has a unique backstory which is different from other biotics'. I'd rather ask what her father expected her to become, if he made her a biotic. That's not so easily answered.

Edjt:
I also agree with jtav's post above.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 janvier 2011 - 11:35 .

[Elyvern]

@Pacifien - it's very plausible that Miranda's father could have engineered artificial biotics in her given that he deemed her and her sisters valuable enough to the time and money he invested in their creation. Without her biotics and to a lesser extent, her life expectancy, the genetic engineering that Miranda undergoes is far from extraordinary, and is actually relatively common in human society--which totally subverts the term "dynasty". This also makes neither her nor Oriana worth the trouble of her father attempting to secure them despite the lapse of so many years.

I also find it impossible to equate the notion of Miranda having biotics cheapening the suffering of biotics in the first game. Despite the apparent wealth her father possesses which may suggest she's had a comfortable childhood, this is explicitly subverted by the fact that Miranda was pushed to meet impossible demands. You can almost imagine her father conducting performance experiments on her to test her limits.

One of the reasons why many of us caught on the idea of her having retroactively undergone surgery to implant the eezo nodules is it has been stated in the codex that before the genophage, krogans were the only race that undertook that risky experiment. The death rate was high and the suffering immense, and after the genophage, the practice was discontinued because of the high attrition rates despite the fast healing ability of krogans. With her enhanced healing abilities, Miranda is singularly suited, out of all humans, to survive the experience, not to mention such an approach is perfectly in keeping with her father's "use-and-discard" attitude. 

That aside, all the reasons I've listed combine, makes it more plausible that she was created an artificial biotic, compared to your option which would require me to rationalise that she was literally tank-taught all her knowledge and expertise. That one I find far harder to reconcile.

Edit: Uhh...damn...jtav and Ieldra ninja'ed my reply.

Modifié par Elyvern, 08 janvier 2011 - 11:58 .