15168 réponses à ce sujet

[stucksuburbanite]

jtav wrote...

I rather like the biotics angle because it means her father must have subjected her to what amounted to medical torture because the only plausible way she is a biotic is a procedure that's killed krogan. And it worked. She really is a gifted biotic. It really brings home the fact that she's suffered for her gifts. Though I think the most likely explanation is that the developers forgot that she couldn't have been exposed to eezo in utero because of the way she was created and that the link wasn't known until she was eight years old.

Even discarding the website, Miranda must be between thirty-two and thirty-eight. Oriana is nineteen, and Miranda fled as a teenager. I suppose it's possible that Miranda was artificially aged, but that requires twisting things even more.

The biotics angle is a good one.  That she underwent great pain for the biotics could explain her ruthlessness; anyone who went through what she did couldn't remain unaffected. And if you go into the nature versus nurture argument, one could say that Miranda wasn't born with her current mindset - her sister would prove that.  From what we've seen of Oriana, it appears that Miranda and her have very different personalities.

Miranda also has a difficult time relating to others and their distresses.  I sorta think that she has this mentality that because she suffered so much and was able to get through it, others can too.  But that's not necessarily from the biotics: that she had only one friend going up definitly would've affected her social development. 

[ISpeakTheTruth]

I think the reason why Miranda's father was going to replace her with Oriana is because of Miranda's infertility issue. What use is making someone who is perfect if all her genes die with her? Maybe she fixed whatever went wrong in making Miranda's reproductive system and now Oriana has everything Miranda has minus a problem getting pregnant.



As a side note I believe that Miranda's condition is treatable but that it wasn't cost effective to do so as it would be less costly to just make a new daughter.

[Elyvern]

stucksuburbanite wrote...

The biotics angle is a good one.  That she underwent great pain for the biotics could explain her ruthlessness; anyone who went through what she did couldn't remain unaffected. And if you go into the nature versus nurture argument, one could say that Miranda wasn't born with her current mindset - her sister would prove that.  From what we've seen of Oriana, it appears that Miranda and her have very different personalities.

Miranda also has a difficult time relating to others and their distresses.  I sorta think that she has this mentality that because she suffered so much and was able to get through it, others can too.  But that's not necessarily from the biotics: that she had only one friend going up definitly would've affected her social development. 

Very much so. I firmly believe that her difficulty in relating to others doesn't stem from ignorance of having a coddled life. It's very much the opposite, and her childhood probably had the biggest effect of honing her pragmatic nature--mainly, she came to the realisation if she wasn't capable of looking out for herself, no one would. It was that mentality that drove her to run away, to exchange a regimented and predictable life of being a lab rat for the greater unknown that is the galaxy. For a teenager just coming into her majority, it's a big step to take considering that she had known no other life.

Many people would also argue that she "harps" alot on her gifts, but to me, she always comes across as being dismissive of them--it's fact, she can't get away from it. Her gripe is the fact that she find herself unable to reconcile her worth in possessing them, and not that she possesses them in the first place. She feels very much the kind of person to say "what doesn't kill me makes me stronger", and because of that, she takes on a very dismissive and impatient attitude to suffering as well as an overblown sense of entitlement.

[stucksuburbanite]

@Elyvern



Agreed on all accounts. In one of her conversations with Shepard she notes that he can command anyone's attention and have them follow him into hell as it were: a natural talent. She's jealous of his abilities because he honed them through hard work and what talents he does have are due to the luck of the draw so to speak. Her talents were specifically chosen and encoded in her genetic makeup.



Shepard can be proud of what he has because he worked for it, but whatever accomplishments she's made is due to her gifts - or so she believes. She can't own up to what she has. In her eyes she is merely just her father's tool. I think that's part of the reason if you chose to blow up the Collector base in the end, she had no qualms in leaving Cerberus: she realized that she was merely a tool for TIM too. That's why I love the conversations Shep has with her - because you see her character develop in them. I don't think that her resignation from Cerberus was out of character at all.

[Elyvern]

I agree with your reasoning except for her resignation at the collector base which I feel for many reasons, is extremely out of character. Since you're new here, let's just say I don't relish touching that topic again with a ten-foot pole since it has resulted in many flame wars in this thread. So welcome to the thread, nice to see another thoughtful and participative forumite in here.

[stucksuburbanite]

No worries: I know that's a violatile topic so I won't touch it.
And thanks for the welcome!

Modifié par stucksuburbanite, 09 janvier 2011 - 01:04 .

[jtav]

I doubt it would get advertised here, but are there any good stories about Miranda getting her way about the control chip? Everything I can find is a mediocre attempt at killing her off as quickly as possible. Such a waste of a good idea.

[Pacifien]

Just wanted to say that given what you guys have said about retroactively implanting the biotics and why, especially in relation to the krogan, that I do think that theory makes a good deal of sense.

[stucksuburbanite]

I haven't seen any but I always thought that it would be a great idea for a post ME2 fanfic. TIM says no to her but actually goes ahead with it and uses the chip as revenge for the Collector Base Paragon decision. The possibilities are endless.

[MsSihaKatieKrios]

Ever heard of the KISS rule? But on a more serious note, the ME timeline seems to be screwed up. Whoever wrote the storyline probably didn't proofread it, and that resulted in so many time clashes and other oddities. Which is why I never bother getting into these sorts of debates as I just end up more confused.

[MsSihaKatieKrios]

@jtav

Absolutely none. Anyways, I can never see Miranda as a villain. Why? That's because villains manipulate people for their own personal gain. However, Miranda isn't selfish, she does everything with an eye on the 'greater good', not for herself. So no, Miranda just isn't villain material.

[elmjuniper]

stucksuburbanite wrote...

I haven't seen any but I always thought that it would be a great idea for a post ME2 fanfic. TIM says no to her but actually goes ahead with it and uses the chip as revenge for the Collector Base Paragon decision. The possibilities are endless.

oops added a link but i missread your post and thought you meant a fic where TIM gets back at Miranda for quitting. Sorry. been writing since this morning so a little tired.

Modifié par elmjuniper, 09 janvier 2011 - 03:13 .

[jtav]

On the contrary, the best villains are those who believe they are doing the right thing. It wouldn't take much to put Miranda into Well Intentioned Extremist territory. She works for a terrorist organization, almost put a control chip in your skull and wanted Legion (who appears sentient) to be experimented om for the greater good. Imagine having all that courage, dedication, and intelligence working against you. She will do almost anything for her cause. That can be scary. All it takes is a few slight changes. If TIM had signed off on it, she would have crossed straight into villain territory. It wasn't ethics that kept her from putting in the chip. It was lack of permission. Brr.

[stucksuburbanite]

@elmjuniper



I guess "revenge" was a poor choice of wording. I was thinking along the lines of keeping Shepard in line: but that would open up a huge can of worms.

[Aigyl]

/emerges from lurker status

On the timeline, I think the problem was thus:

-They didn't want ME taking place too far into the future so it's more relatable (human personalities/attitudes being the same as ours is more convincing, can still use our history convincingly instead of wondering why they're referring to say Hiroshima when hundreds of years of history have happened since, etc.). So they  decided to set it around the late 2100s.

-They couldn't have humans settling on Luna and Mars in just a few years, that would be even more ridiculous, so they had to wait until the early 2100s before Mass Effect tech could be discovered and utilised in a convincing manner.

This left only a few decades to squeeze in mass colonisation on scores of planets across the galaxy, First Contact, having fully grown Biotic humans, establishing an embassy on the Citadel, annoying the Bartarians and having a few scraps with them, Anderson trying to become a Spectre, planning to try and get on the Council already, and so on.

Anyhoo, that's my crazy theory for the day, apologies for the slght off-topic.

/returns to the depths of the lurker status

[MsSihaKatieKrios]

jtav wrote...

On the contrary, the best villains are those who believe they are doing the right thing. It wouldn't take much to put Miranda into Well Intentioned Extremist territory. She works for a terrorist organization, almost put a control chip in your skull and wanted Legion (who appears sentient) to be experimented om for the greater good. Imagine having all that courage, dedication, and intelligence working against you. She will do almost anything for her cause. That can be scary. All it takes is a few slight changes. If TIM had signed off on it, she would have crossed straight into villain territory. It wasn't ethics that kept her from putting in the chip. It was lack of permission. Brr.

If she wasn't doing it for herself, it would mean she's in a grey area. Because the problem is, a villain will do things that will benefit ONLY him/herself. However, if said person is doing it for the 'greater good', then it goes into a morally grey area. It's pretty much like Communism and Facism, where they have the best intentions of making people live with their basic necessities, but we all know what happened at the end. I don't know about you, but for many including myself, the word 'villain' brings to mind images of someone like Dominic Greene from Quantum of Solace.

[elmjuniper]

stucksuburbanite wrote...

@elmjuniper

I guess "revenge" was a poor choice of wording. I was thinking along the lines of keeping Shepard in line: but that would open up a huge can of worms.

it would however be an interesting fic...hmm... i can see some really cool scenarios.
oh and no... it was just my stupid brain being fried, nothing wrong with your wording.

[elmjuniper]

MsSihaKatieKrios wrote...

jtav wrote...

On the contrary, the best villains are those who believe they are doing the right thing. It wouldn't take much to put Miranda into Well Intentioned Extremist territory. She works for a terrorist organization, almost put a control chip in your skull and wanted Legion (who appears sentient) to be experimented om for the greater good. Imagine having all that courage, dedication, and intelligence working against you. She will do almost anything for her cause. That can be scary. All it takes is a few slight changes. If TIM had signed off on it, she would have crossed straight into villain territory. It wasn't ethics that kept her from putting in the chip. It was lack of permission. Brr.

If she wasn't doing it for herself, it would mean she's in a grey area. Because the problem is, a villain will do things that will benefit ONLY him/herself. However, if said person is doing it for the 'greater good', then it goes into a morally grey area. It's pretty much like Communism and Facism, where they have the best intentions of making people live with their basic necessities, but we all know what happened at the end. I don't know about you, but for many including myself, the word 'villain' brings to mind images of someone like Dominic Greene from Quantum of Solace.

did you know I read that most people don't actually do evil stuff to be evil, but becasue they truly believe it's the right thing to do. Quite interesting...

Modifié par elmjuniper, 09 janvier 2011 - 05:27 .

[Pinkflamingo22]

hold on are people suggesting she got implanted with biotics out of utero? How could one develop biotics outside of the womb? If someone could explain this to me it would be helpful.

[Caihn]

MsSihaKatieKrios wrote...

@jtav
Absolutely none. Anyways, I can never see Miranda as a villain. Why? That's because villains manipulate people for their own personal gain. However, Miranda isn't selfish, she does everything with an eye on the 'greater good', not for herself. So no, Miranda just isn't villain material.

I agree.

[Caihn]

 This page need some pictures :

[Ieldra]

stucksuburbanite wrote...
@Elyvern

Agreed on all accounts. In one of her conversations with Shepard she notes that he can command anyone's attention and have them follow him into hell as it were: a natural talent. She's jealous of his abilities because he honed them through hard work and what talents he does have are due to the luck of the draw so to speak. Her talents were specifically chosen and encoded in her genetic makeup.

Please note that you can't genetically encode skills. You can only encode predispositions, and not even that for skills, but for cognitive abilities and physical traits that would make it easier to learn certain skills. She had to be "pushed to meet impossible demands" to realize them, and she says about Shepard that he's practically genetically perfect himself (second romance conversation). So - she might perceive things that way, that she doesn't deserve her abilities as much as Shepard does his, but it is wrong. It is where her rationality fails her because of the way she was treated as a child. 

[Ieldra]

Pinkflamingo22 wrote...
hold on are people suggesting she got implanted with biotics out of utero? How could one develop biotics outside of the womb? If someone could explain this to me it would be helpful.

The Codex mentions that before the genophage, some krogan became biotics through surgery, a practice that was then discontinued because of the high attrition rate. We think that Miranda's father's scientists adapted that procedure from the krogan and used it to give Miranda her biotics. We need that explanation because Miranda can't have been a "standard" biotic who was accidentally exposed to eezo in utero because (1) she's too old, and even if her age were wrong by the one or two years required, (2) it's unlikely that her father would have let Miranda's surrogate mother out of his sight; and even had she been at the Singapore incident in spite of this, (3) her father would have discarded her since the beneficial side-effects of eezo exposure weren't known until 2156.

[Ieldra]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
I think the reason why Miranda's father was going to replace her with Oriana is because of Miranda's infertility issue. What use is making someone who is perfect if all her genes die with her? Maybe she fixed whatever went wrong in making Miranda's reproductive system and now Oriana has everything Miranda has minus a problem getting pregnant.

That doesn't work without a retcon. The reason for her infertility was progressive damage from a "benign neoplasm" (let's let the fact slide that those don't usually cause progressive damage). Progressive damage for 20 years without having been discovered, that appears very unlikely, even if you don't consider that in early stages, things would have been quite repairable. If it was a known genetic predisposition, then it could also have been corrected, and if it had been an unknown one, it wouldn't have been discovered by her father.
That means, if the infertility is the reason her father discarded her, then that "benign neoplasm" is unconnected to her condition and the medical report wrong.

As a side note I believe that Miranda's condition is treatable but that it wasn't cost effective to do so as it would be less costly to just make a new daughter.

That, too, seems very unlikely. Even normal children are a significant investment, to say nothing of someone grown from an artificial genome and given "the best education money can buy" under very controlled conditions. Even if a treatment would cost 500K credits it would still be cheaper that making a new child. Then consider the time lost - Miranda's father doesn't have unlimited time to bring his dynasty into being. No, I think his daughters would only be discarded if the damage was considered irrepairable, or detected in early stages of development. He wouldn't discard a 16-year-old lightly.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 09 janvier 2011 - 09:21 .

[Arijharn]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Pinkflamingo22 wrote...
hold on are people suggesting she got implanted with biotics out of utero? How could one develop biotics outside of the womb? If someone could explain this to me it would be helpful.

The Codex mentions that before the genophage, some krogan became biotics through surgery, a practice that was then discontinued because of the high attrition rate. We think that Miranda's father's scientists adapted that procedure from the krogan and used it to give Miranda her biotics. We need that explanation because Miranda can't have been a "standard" biotic who was accidentally exposed to eezo in utero because (1) she's too old, and even if her age were wrong by the one or two years required, (2) it's unlikely that her father would have let Miranda's surrogate mother out of his sight; and even had she been at the Singapore incident in spite of this, (3) her father would have discarded her since the beneficial side-effects of eezo exposure weren't known until 2156.

I suppose the difference could be just how much is different between public knowledge about Biotic advancements/discovery vs what actually happened ™. I mean, it also seems unlikely that the Systems Alliance could have been formed 'just-like-that' after the discovery of the Prothean ruins.

P.S: Hi, long time no see.