15168 réponses à ce sujet

[MsSihaKatieKrios]

Hey boys and girls, I've just made a new poll, so do go and vote for Miranda!

[Ieldra]

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Elyvern wrote...
ROFL!
Nice try but I don't think that was Miranda's get-up, more like Black Widow's from Ironman 2, or your quintessential female spy get up.  

*waits to hear jtav squee* ../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png

No no, jtav won't squee over Chuck.

Black Widow's get-up, btw, isn't so far removed from Miranda's loyalty outfit, as isn't this one:



Fortunately, these don't seem as far out of place in an SF setting. As long as the high heels are gone and we get a helmet added for the space missions, I could live with this [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

Sienna Effing Miller in GIJoe! G'dam they should get her for Miranda if not Yvonne.

Perhaps not, JohnnyBeGood. In spite of this amazing - and amazingly fanservice-y - shot, I've heard nothing good about that film. Yvonne Strahovski has done a very good job voice-acting Miranda, and I can't complain about her appearance. If only Bioware's animators had done a better job converting her into pixels - Miranda's face is strange in the game, so beautiful in some scenes and so weird in others.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 janvier 2011 - 02:04 .

[Ieldra]

It appears this thread needs more Miranda screenshots:







@MsSiha:
Your poll is incomplete. Not that I really mind who's missing, but what little weight it may carry it invalidated by the missing characters.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 janvier 2011 - 10:48 .

[jtav]

There's been some Miranda discussion in the Kaidan thread. One thing that was brought up is that Miranda appears rather arrogant and caught up in how she looks until you get to know her and realize that it's partly a defense mechanism. Do you agree? I never considered her arrogant about her abilities because she was so matter of fact about them. And the way she mentioned her looks explicitly as another thing her father gave her made me pity her. Not only are her abilities not hers, neither is her body.

[Pacifien]

Miranda is a person of high intelligence, and she believes that her arguments are sound simply because she, as an intelligent person, believes in them. Nevermind that intelligent people can be wrong or disagree with each other, I don't think she much takes that into consideration. Thus, she is arrogant. Intelligence doesn't automatically make someone right.

As an aside, Miranda's fault is thinking that one can be engineered for greatness. I thought the whole point in her relationship with Shepard was to show her that she is great in spite of it, just as she feels Shepard is.

[MsSihaKatieKrios]

@Ieldra2

Psh don't worry, it won't be invalidated. Because people are really tired of those-ahem-vote spamming the poll and eventually screwing it all up.

[MsSihaKatieKrios]

@jtav; Pacifen

I never thought of Miranda as being arrogant as she was so blunt about it. However, I realised that she keeps stating her strengths so that people don't see her weaknesses and vulnerablities. As such, people only see the tough, b*tchy Miranda instead of the soft, vulnerable Miranda she really is on the inside.

[jtav]

Vulnerable to a degree, yes, but I wouldn't class her as soft. She really is quite hard. It's not a front or a mask.

[Pacifien]

I don't think it's her trying to be arrogant. In fact, I don't think anyone tries to be arrogant. I think that label is something that is applied to a person based on other people's perceptions. She is smart, she believes she is right, and she does not hide this from you. This is arrogance.

Mordin probably has this as well, as displayed by his belief that krogans are incapable of being scientists worthy of the term. (How I would have loved to have seen the interactions with Mordin if Okeer had survived.)

And I suppose one element to factor when someone is just stating facts to when someone is being arrogant about it is tone. I suspect how someone interprets tone is subjective. Someone who says she's never wrong comes across as arrogant to me.

Modifié par Pacifien, 11 janvier 2011 - 12:09 .

[jtav]

Ah, yes. That's definitely arrogant. I suspect she takes particular pride in her people-reading skills. It's something she earned with experience, rather than genes.

[Pacifien]

I imagine those that work in the information game as Miranda, Liara, Barla Von and so forth take pride in their ability to obtain and provide better information than the next guy in the business.

[General User]

The thing is, I don’t know if Miranda really knows where to draw the line in her mind between what she earned on her own and what she was given by virtue of her genetic tailoring.



That’s part of what makes her so unhappy, she feels she can’t take credit even for the things she worked really hard to achieve.

[Pacifien]

I'd have to wonder about her upbringing, if her father specifically geared her education in certain subjects such that she'd be an expert in the field. Is her knowledge of genetic engineering through her own choice to learn about the subject, or did her father start her on that path? Is her ability to read people of her own doing, or did her father train her to read other people? (I imagine someone who leads a dynasty would be well trained to read people.) Even her role within Cerberus, she ran to them because they were the best people to protect her from her father, and she's done everything the Illusive Man has ever asked her. Even her accomplishments with the Lazarus Project were at the Illusive Man's command, and he overruled her on key decisions like a control chip. She's never been in a position to lay claim to something being entirely of her own choice.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
There's been some Miranda discussion in the Kaidan thread. One thing that was brought up is that Miranda appears rather arrogant and caught up in how she looks until you get to know her and realize that it's partly a defense mechanism. Do you agree? I never considered her arrogant about her abilities because she was so matter of fact about them. And the way she mentioned her looks explicitly as another thing her father gave her made me pity her. Not only are her abilities not hers, neither is her body.

She's never caught up about her looks. Not once. In fact, she might use her appearance but at the same time she almost seems to resent it. She *is* confident in her abilities, and doesn't hide that from you. That may come across as arrogant, but I never thought it was. Being confident in your abilities only comes across as arrogant to those who aren't confident in theirs and have the need to pull others down to their level.

"I'm never wrong" - OK, that is arrogant. It's not a defining part of her personality, though. I also do *not* think that her confidence is a mask. She's vulnerable when it comes to emotionally connecting to people, but where she can use her intellect, her confidence is real. The reason for that difference is that she doesn't let her competence translate to self-esteeem very well. Once she's come to terms with her past, the results might be surprising: she might become a bit more open emotionally, but at the same time she'll become even more powerful in the areas where she's competent, since she'll project that competence much more forcefully than before. People will think her even more arrogant for that, since I don't think that any emotional openness she'll acquire will ever extend to anyone she isn't close to.

[Pacifien]

Ieldra2 wrote...
She's never caught up about her looks. Not once. In fact, she might use her appearance but at the same time she almost seems to resent it. She *is* confident in her abilities, and doesn't hide that from you. That may come across as arrogant, but I never thought it was. Being confident in your abilities only comes across as arrogant to those who aren't confident in theirs and have the need to pull others down to their level.

There is having too much confidence in one's abilities such that you can't even view yourself as doing wrong. Mordin falls into this trap with the genophage research and its impact on Maelon. So sure that he was doing right, he couldn't see how it left emotional scars. Miranda is confident in her judgement of the Illusive Man, so confident in fact, that she cannot fathom his betrayal.

Miranda has right to be confident her abilities, but that doesn't mean she should grow complacent in them. She can still be wrong if she's not careful. She should always humor the idea that she can be wrong.

Modifié par Pacifien, 11 janvier 2011 - 12:38 .

[General User]

Pacifien wrote...

I'd have to wonder about her upbringing, if her father specifically geared her education in certain subjects such that she'd be an expert in the field. Is her knowledge of genetic engineering through her own choice to learn about the subject, or did her father start her on that path? Is her ability to read people of her own doing, or did her father train her to read other people? (I imagine someone who leads a dynasty would be well trained to read people.) Even her role within Cerberus, she ran to them because they were the best people to protect her from her father, and she's done everything the Illusive Man has ever asked her. Even her accomplishments with the Lazarus Project were at the Illusive Man's command, and he overruled her on key decisions like a control chip. She's never been in a position to lay claim to something being entirely of her own choice.

This is the Normandy, if you have a healthy relationship with your family, you're on the wrong ship.

I think that’s part of why her quitting Cerberus at the end of ME2 was such a big deal for her. She’s finally taking charge of her own life and very optimistic about the future, as this time she has a partner not just another patron.

Modifié par General User, 11 janvier 2011 - 12:42 .

[enayasoul]

General User wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

I'd have to wonder about her upbringing, if her father specifically geared her education in certain subjects such that she'd be an expert in the field. Is her knowledge of genetic engineering through her own choice to learn about the subject, or did her father start her on that path? Is her ability to read people of her own doing, or did her father train her to read other people? (I imagine someone who leads a dynasty would be well trained to read people.) Even her role within Cerberus, she ran to them because they were the best people to protect her from her father, and she's done everything the Illusive Man has ever asked her. Even her accomplishments with the Lazarus Project were at the Illusive Man's command, and he overruled her on key decisions like a control chip. She's never been in a position to lay claim to something being entirely of her own choice.

This is the Normandy, if you have a healthy relationship with your family, you're on the wrong ship.

I think that’s part of why her quitting Cerberus at the end of ME2 was such a big deal for her. She’s finally taking charge of her own life and very optimistic about the future, as this time she has a partner not just another patron.

I agree with all of this.  Makes you think...   Looking forward to seeing how Miranda turns out in ME3. 

[Ieldra]

Pacifien wrote...
I'd have to wonder about her upbringing, if her father specifically geared her education in certain subjects such that she'd be an expert in the field. Is her knowledge of genetic engineering through her own choice to learn about the subject, or did her father start her on that path? Is her ability to read people of her own doing, or did her father train her to read other people? (I imagine someone who leads a dynasty would be well trained to read people.) Even her role within Cerberus, she ran to them because they were the best people to protect her from her father, and she's done everything the Illusive Man has ever asked her. Even her accomplishments with the Lazarus Project were at the Illusive Man's command, and he overruled her on key decisions like a control chip. She's never been in a position to lay claim to something being entirely of her own choice.

I don't think it's quite as one-sided. It was her own choice to run away and take Oriana. I can see her interest in bioengineering as a result of being curious about her origins, which Cerberus then put to use by putting her on the Lazarus project. Reading people is likely something intended by her father.

I think once in Cerberus, she learned a lot of stuff on her own initiative but had little control about how she'd use that education. That's not too different from any job. She does believe in Cerberus' stated goals, however much her interpretation of them may differ from TIM's, so she might have been pushed by circumstances into working for them, but I can see little motivation for her to break with them for any other reason than the atrocities she must come to acknowledge in the course of ME2.

What she could never do was make a decision unencumbered by her past. But then, who ever can? We all must overcome childhood conditioning, hers was only harsher than most. Which is why breaking with Cerberus is a big step, but not as big as when she ran away and took Oriana with her. That was what changed the course of her life in a most fundamental way, and it was entirely her own choice.

[Rykoth]

This is kind of why I think (despite the fact I'm a Talimancer at heart) that if Bioware ever "had" to give their own canon Shepard, Miranda would actually be the love interest for the male Shepard.

With ME1, you had Ashley or Liara. Now I'm pretty sure that Ash would make the most sense for the "default," in ME1, but if you think about the transition from ME1 to ME2.

Ashley abandons you. Turns her back, calls you a traitor, etc.

The whole nifty thing about Cerberus is despite what you did to them in ME1, and despite the fact they really are an overall -vile- group, not one single Cerberus operative on the Normandy treats you like crap. They trust you, and as Miranda says, "are willing to walk into hell itself."

Now, at the beginning of the game, especially IMO if you're a Paragon Shep, Miranda is quite a ****. But she trusts you ultimately, but you're dealing with an equal. Let's face it, Ash was not an equal. In wit? Sure okay. But overall, Ash was not an equal. Physically and mentally, Miranda is an equal to Shepard. The trick is that emotionally, Miranda isn't equal, as it turns out. That's why the idea of Shep/Miranda intrigues me, because based on the conversations you can have with her, Shepard can actually raise her up to -be- that equal.

That's why Bioware can do no wrong in my eyes. Each of the romances feels a little bit like its own journey, and those aren't even the most important plotlines.

My only complaint about Mirandamance... is that the paragon option has Shepard saying he just wants to sleep with her. Way to potentially help cripple her self esteem

[jtav]

Brief excerpt

"You'd think someone somewhere could find a way to do more to help the people down there. We can train people to move things with their mind, but we can only take isolated shots at slavers. Instead, humanity acts like the biggest bully on the playground. It's like the only thing that matters is power." He shrugged. "The strong enforcing their will on the weak and ignoring the big problems like the Reapers. I guess it really is inherent in the system."

I couldn't let an opening like that go to waste. The ship sped toward Omega. We'd be at the Talon docking bay within minutes. "Sometimes you have to go outside the system. There are people who are trying to fight the Reapers, but they' branded as traitors, murderers, and madmen. The galaxy is facing extinction. If we have to bend a few rules to save ourselves, so be it."

He took his time answering. Maybe too much time. "Sometimes the rules are there for a reason. How much does the AIA know about an organization called Cerberus?"

The subject was bound to come up sooner or later. Shepard had destroyed three of the three of our projects, costing us millions of credits and killing several key personnel. She had also of it eliminated the last of the rogue cell that had been responsible for the atrocity on Akuze, but neither she nor Kaidan had any way of knowing that. It was only natural that he had some misconceptions about the organization. The Alliance had alternated between painting us as terrorists and discreetly accepting our help since long before I joined.

"Let's just say we've crossed paths on occasion," I said. "What's on your mind?"

He ran his fingers through his hair. It was the first time I had seen him truly agitated. "We were investigating some strange samples ExoGeni sent to the Chasca colony. We were afraid they might have been overrun by more Thorian creepers. It turned out that the entire colony had been turned to husks. Cerberus was behind it. We found dragon's teeth scattered all over the place. A hundred and fifty colonists killed for no good reason. If the rules can stop things like that, then they're worth it."

They did what? When I had been assigned to the Lazarus Project, I had been briefed on the cells Shepard and her team had encountered. The team at Chasca had been assigned to the colony after it had been wiped out by a plague. They were to convert the bodies into husks and learn as much as they could about the process so we could defend against it. With luck, we would even have some shock troops use against the Reapers. No mention has been made of the Cerberus team actually killing them. Kaidan must have been mistaken. Or yet another project lead had gone beyond mission parameters. It was a risk Cerberus took. We gave the most brilliant minds in the galaxy nearly unlimited resources with limited oversight. Some abused that privilege. We dealt with them. I made a mental note to find out who had been in charge of the project and ask them a few questions. If they were so foolish as Kaidan implied them to be, then they had made my job recruiting him and gaining Shepard's trust that much harder. I was certain the Illusive Man would express his... displeasure in the strongest possible terms if he knew.

"We know what they did." I kept my voice neutral, allowing only a slight hint of disgust to slip through. "The worst thing is that nothing came of it. We stole a copy of the project files, and Cerberus still doesn't know any more about husks than they did before. We need to study our enemy so we can defeat them."

His brows knitted in thought. "I'm not saying we shouldn't. Just that we shouldn't cut corners. Cerberus cuts too many corners. Yes, I'm not able to do everything I'd like, but it's good that there's a system that can stop people from turning into monsters. Even when I hate that system," he muttered softly."

"And if you could find a group that fought the Reapers and actually protected the humans you're sworn to defend without cutting corners? What would you do then?"

"Faint, probably." He smiled as he said it.

I smiled, too. I knew how I could win him over now. I was methodical. I'd tortured and killed. I didn't deny that. Mostly slavers and the other scum the Alliance spent most of its time fighting. Kaidan could hardly object to that. There were a few Luddites who would be convinced that the Lazarus Project would be going too far, but they were largely the same people that decried biotics as unnatural. Kaidan wouldn't share their belief. The construction of the SR-2 was harming no one. All I had to do was convince him that people like me were the true face of Cerberus and that those he had encountered before were aberrations. It wouldn't be hard. It was the truth after all. "I'll just have to see if I can find you one."

[Ieldra]

Very nice, jtav. A few comments:
(1) I like your Chasca scenario. Very convincing. What Miranda knows could be true for all she knows, and for all we know as well. I also like how she wants to get to the truth - she may have a selective perception, but she isn't stupid. She'd want to know it.
(2) Miranda's comment about the true face of Cerberus - with the way you phrased it it doesn't seem as if she believes her own reasoning.
(3) There is a strange phrasing in paragraph 4. May be an artifact of the dictation software.

Apart from that, I can only say that your story might need some action soon (Edit: just so there's no misunderstanding: I mean an action scene, not a sex scene).

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 janvier 2011 - 05:53 .

[Vanguard1219]

Bonne journée à vous, Miranda thread. I hope the day is treating you well.

Right, with the pleasentries out of the way I have a question for the lot of you (assuming that this is something that you've all given some thought). Last night I played through Miranda's loyalty mission again, and I'm sure that by this point everyone knows that if you nudge Miranda into talking to Oriana the two have a nice, heartwarming moment and keep messaging each other back-and-forth for the rest of the game.

So yes, obviously their talk on Illium went "well", but it happened entirely offscreen. That left me wondering how, exactly, their conversation went and, more importantly, how much did Oriana already know about her current circumstances? I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that she might have known she was adopted if she accepted that this suspiciously similar looking complete stranger in a skintight catsuit is her sister in the span of a conversation that lasted... well, however long it was.

Anyway, Lawson fans, how did you envision that conversation going? What do you think Miranda said to her sister upon meeting her as an adult for the first time? (and vice versa)

[Ieldra]

Actually, Vanguard1219, you've got us a shiny new topic I can't recall anyone has given serious thought so far. And that after a year of discussing Miranda. Embarrassing.

I assume that in lore, Oriana and Miranda do look alike (unlike in the game where Oriana has a standard model). Given that Oriana is as smart as Miranda, I don't think she could be mislead for long, and Miranda does want the contact. However, Miranda also wants to protect Oriana and make a normal life possible for her.

I consider it likely that Oriana will accept that Miranda is her sister and that she is adopted. She might have suspected but not known the latter in advance. The phrasing of her mail to Miranda after the loyalty mission also suggests that she knows they're both exceptionally intelligent. I think it is possible but unlikely (oops, Elyvern won't like that) that Miranda has kept the fact they were engineered from her, and possibly the knowledge about who their father is. Unlikely because once Oriana knows there's something fishy about her origin, she's intelligent enough to reseach on her own. Miranda wouldn't want her to do something so dangerous and prefer to tell her.
Almost certainly Miranda has not told her that she works for Cerberus and what she does for a living in general. Out of professionalism and to protect Oriana from dangerous knowledge.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 janvier 2011 - 06:32 .

[jtav]

I agree with Ieldra, except I don't think Miranda spoke of her origins in the first meeting, though it likely came up later. I can imagine Miranda being visibly nervous, repeating that she doesn't want to intrude on Oriana's life and Oriana simply hugging her.

[jakeN7]

I think orianna must have known she was adopted. because i just played that mission and i'm pretty sure her adopted mother (or at i'm assuming the other woman standing with her is the mother) is black. i could be mistaken. but that would be a pretty big hint