15168 réponses à ce sujet

[jtav]

They're also incompetent. If Miranda had played that up instead of the game pretending that keeping the base per se was an atrocity, then things would have gone differently for me.

[Ieldra]

@Ryzaki:
I have two alternatives: to believe that Miranda Lawson, one of the toughest women in the ME universe, would have an emotional breakdown facing the biggest decision of her life as an operative, or pretend that she never said that line (for you can avoid it) and it's an artifact of bad writing. I can live with her expressing doubts if I keep the base ("Before, I would never have doubted the Illusive Man. I hope what we find in there is worth it") because anyone would have doubts. But I can't take that "betrayal" line seriously, and I think she should also express doubts if we destroy the base ("I hope we didn't destroy anything we'd have needed against the Reapers").

@jtav:
Yes, playing up the incompetence would have worked as well.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 26 janvier 2011 - 10:06 .

[Ryzaki]

jtav wrote...

They're also incompetent. If Miranda had played that up instead of the game pretending that keeping the base per se was an atrocity, then things would have gone differently for me.

Also this.

The only time Cerberus does anything right is when it directly effects Shepard. And hell even then its a hit or a horrible miss.

*is tired of Shep being a janitor in ME1 it was the alliance and the council and in ME2 it was Cerberus.

Who's it going to be in ME3? 

[Ryzaki]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Ryzaki:
I have two alternatives: to believe that Miranda Lawson, one of the toughest women in the ME universe, would have an emotional breakdown facing the biggest decision of her life as an operative, or pretend that she never said that line (for you can avoid it) and it's an artifact of bad writing. I can live with her expressing doubts if I keep the base ("Before, I would never have doubted the Illusive Man. I hope what we find in there is worth it") because anyone would have doubts. But I can't take that "betrayal" line seriously, and I think she should also express doubts if we destroy the base ("I hope we didn't destroy anything we'd have needed against the Reapers").

Being tough doesn't make you a machine. Its okay for people to make emotional decisions once in a while. Its part of being human. That doesn't make it bad writing.

Though frankly I think she'll express doubts for destroying the base in ME3.

[Ieldra]

Ryzaki wrote...
Ironically I think the Reapers are less evil than Cerberus. The reapers at least have the excuse of being machines for lacking empathy. They don't know fear, anger, despair. Cerberus operatives on the other hand should understand this. Cerberus are supposed to be humane and for humanity yet they allow **** like Akuze and Teltin to happen. They claim to want the advancement of humans but for the most part their victims are those they claim to want to advance.

Evil isn't doing horrible things. Its doing those things while knowing full well the consequences of what you're doing but not caring about the harm it does to others as long as you end up ahead.

OK. I should have phrased things differently: people appear to believe that the Reaper threat of galaxy-wide extinction is inconsequential in the face of Cerberus' evil.

[jtav]

Her being emotional here would have worked better if she hadn't still been pretty darn pragmatic right after seeing the crew liquefied. She's the one who tells you you can't afford to go back. So they really need to explain why merely studying the base is a betrayal. What she should have said was something like. "Again and again during this mission, I've seen Cerberus throw lives away needlessly. If we keep the base, it'll just happen again. And that would be the worst betrayal of humanity I can imagine."

[Ieldra]

Ryzaki wrote...
Being tough doesn't make you a machine. Its okay for people to make emotional decisions once in a while. Its part of being human. That doesn't make it bad writing.

Once in a while, yes. But not in a decision that might doom the galaxy. If anywhere not, then there. You don't have hours to think about it, yes, but you do have a few minutes. She should be able to come up with Legion's or Mordin's eminently reasonable stance. Yes, I do think it is an artifact of bad writing. Someone didn't want any female LI to recommend a Renegade decision. 

Though frankly I think she'll express doubts for destroying the base in ME3.

I'm very curious how this will go....

Modifié par Ieldra2, 26 janvier 2011 - 10:31 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Her being emotional here would have worked better if she hadn't still been pretty darn pragmatic right after seeing the crew liquefied. She's the one who tells you you can't afford to go back. So they really need to explain why merely studying the base is a betrayal. What she should have said was something like. "Again and again during this mission, I've seen Cerberus throw lives away needlessly. If we keep the base, it'll just happen again. And that would be the worst betrayal of humanity I can imagine."

I would find that convincing if she had shown some sign of being disaffected with Cerberus before. She also doesn't mention the Reaper angle..

Ah...I hate that we can't do something else with the base. Actually, I agree a worse decision than to give the base to Cerberus is hard to find. Unfortuntately, destroying it is one of those hard-to-find ones...

[Ryzaki]

Ieldra2 wrote...
OK. I should have phrased things differently: people appear to believe that the Reaper threat of galaxy-wide extinction is inconsequential in the face of Cerberus' evil.

Okay that is kind of off...

[jtav]

Ieldra2 wrote...

 Yes, I do think it is an artifact of bad writing. Someone didn't want any female LI to recommend a Renegade decision. 

That idea is what scares me the most: that Miranda is being softened for the sake of making her more acceptable as a LI to the majority. I like those harsh edges she has. But if she becomes just another person who has "seen the light" because of Shepard and is now all nice and socially acceptably Paragon, well I have a reason to replay the suicide mission.

[Ryzaki]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Once in a while, yes. But not in a decision that might doom the galaxy. If anywhere not, then there. You don't have hours to think about it, yes, but you do have a few minutes. She should be able to come up with Legion's eminently reasonable stance. Yes, I do think it is an artifact of bad writing. Someone didn't want any female LI to recommend a Renegade decision.

People become emotional at all the wrong times. Surely you have witnessed (if not done) this a few times yourself? 

I don't think that was the reasoning at all. They had no problems with her recommend renegade decisions beforehand.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 janvier 2011 - 10:31 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I would find that convincing if she had shown some sign of being disaffected with Cerberus before. She also doesn't mention the Reaper angle..

Ah...I hate that we can't do something else with the base. Actually, I agree a worse decision than to give the base to Cerberus is hard to find. Unfortuntately, destroying it is one of those hard-to-find ones...

Yeah...this irritates me about the Collector Base.  The most sensible objection to keeping the base has jack-s*** to do with Cerberus or the deaths of the colonists on the base.  It has to do with the fact that Reaper tech is incredibly dangerous and backfires spectacularly on just about every organic attempt to employ it.  But no, the most pragmatic person aboard the Normandy apparently forgot that bit and instead gives the same BS line about the base being an abomination.

I wish you had the opportunity to TALK to your party members and even TIM sensibly about the Collector Base.  Alas, when TIM gets the Villain Ball, he gets it bad.

[Ieldra]

Ryzaki wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Once in a while, yes. But not in a decision that might doom the galaxy. If anywhere not, then there. You don't have hours to think about it, yes, but you do have a few minutes. She should be able to come up with Legion's eminently reasonable stance. Yes, I do think it is an artifact of bad writing. Someone didn't want any female LI to recommend a Renegade decision.

People become emotional at all the wrong times. Surely you have witnessed (if not done) this a few times yourself?

Yeah, but the wrong times never involved the fate of the world. Usually, the higher the stakes, the more you can delay the stress reaction until the situation is dealt with. Again, I refuse to believe that Miranda could have an emotional breakdown in this situation. Not being who she is, not when she's likely seen pretty bad stuff before, not when no one else in the team, not even Tali, has an emotional breakdown, not when she hasn't had one when freeing the colonists. That was the worse part - the discovery of what was done to the colonists.

[Ryzaki]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Once in a while, yes. But not in a decision that might doom the galaxy. If anywhere not, then there. You don't have hours to think about it, yes, but you do have a few minutes. She should be able to come up with Legion's eminently reasonable stance. Yes, I do think it is an artifact of bad writing. Someone didn't want any female LI to recommend a Renegade decision.

People become emotional at all the wrong times. Surely you have witnessed (if not done) this a few times yourself?

Yeah, but the wrong times never involved the fate of the world. Usually, the higher the stakes, the more you can delay the stress reaction until the situation is dealt with. Again, I refuse to believe that Miranda could have an emotional breakdown in this situation. Not being who she is, not when she's likely seen pretty bad stuff before, not when no one else in the team, not even Tali, has an emotional breakdown, not when she hasn't had one when freeing the colonists. That was the worse part - the discovery of what was done to the colonists.

That's probably because most people will never have the fate of the world in their hands and only have a few moments to deal with it.

Also...usuallly.

Again it's prefectly believeable that she cold've had an emotional breakdown. Hell maybe its been building slowly and the second she sees the Reaper she's had it.

The weird thing is no one seems to say anything. One of the huge weaknesses of that scene. No one breaks down because hardly anyone reacts at all. It's like they're a bunch of bumps on the log.

[Ieldra]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I would find that convincing if she had shown some sign of being disaffected with Cerberus before. She also doesn't mention the Reaper angle..

Ah...I hate that we can't do something else with the base. Actually, I agree a worse decision than to give the base to Cerberus is hard to find. Unfortuntately, destroying it is one of those hard-to-find ones...

Yeah...this irritates me about the Collector Base.  The most sensible objection to keeping the base has jack-s*** to do with Cerberus or the deaths of the colonists on the base.  It has to do with the fact that Reaper tech is incredibly dangerous and backfires spectacularly on just about every organic attempt to employ it.  But no, the most pragmatic person aboard the Normandy apparently forgot that bit and instead gives the same BS line about the base being an abomination.

I wish you had the opportunity to TALK to your party members and even TIM sensibly about the Collector Base.  Alas, when TIM gets the Villain Ball, he gets it bad.

So, we have collected a number of sensible reasons for destroying the base. While personally, I don't find any of them have more weight than the reasons to keep it, they all make some sense.

So why doesn't present our exceptionally pragmatic and intelligent XO us with one of these? Instead of giving us that crap line about how "this feels like a betrayal"?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 26 janvier 2011 - 10:50 .

[jtav]

Permission to be cynical and blunt? I the thing they wanted Miranda to do a Heel Face turn as fast as possible. Keeping the base will lead to atrocities in ME3, and they don't want her associated with that.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ieldra2 wrote...
So, we have collected a number of sensible reasons for destroying the base. While personally, I don't find any of them have more weight than the reasons to keep it, they all make some sense.

So why doesn't present our exceptionally pragmatic and intelligent XO us with one of these?

I'd be more willing to let Miranda off the hook if it was the ME1 sort of situation where you have designated responses from the party members, and it doesn't really make a difference who's saying it.  It happens in ME2 as well, though not based on who's more Paragon or Renegade.

But that's not the case for the Collector Base.  Every squaddie has unique opinions and dialogue, even if they don't come up all the time.  Miranda has her whole little sequence with TIM.  And never, not once, do the practical reasons beyond "ZOMG Cerberus bad" come into the discussion. 

I'm not one to blame the writers, usually.  I think calling OOC or poorly written should be the last resort when a character's actions seem a bit strange.  But I really can't come up with any other justification for this one.

jtav wrote...

Permission to be cynical and blunt? I the thing they wanted Miranda to do a Heel Face turn as fast as possible. Keeping the base will lead to atrocities in ME3, and they don't want her associated with that.

That and the only way Shep maintains any ties with Cerberus is by keeping the base, and even then Renegade Shep gives TIM one hell of a warning against its abuse.  

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 26 janvier 2011 - 10:52 .

[Ryzaki]

jtav wrote...

Permission to be cynical and blunt? I the thing they wanted Miranda to do a Heel Face turn as fast as possible. Keeping the base will lead to atrocities in ME3, and they don't want her associated with that.

I agree with this.

Especially considering Cerberus' track record *sighs and rub temples*

I just hope TIM doesn't do something stupid and end up with a indoctrinated super soldier stalking Shepard to take him down.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Yes, I do think it is an artifact of bad writing. Someone didn't want any female LI to recommend a Renegade decision.

That idea is what scares me the most: that Miranda is being softened for the sake of making her more acceptable as a LI to the majority. I like those harsh edges she has. But if she becomes just another person who has "seen the light" because of Shepard and is now all nice and socially acceptably Paragon, well I have a reason to replay the suicide mission.

QFT.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ryzaki wrote...

jtav wrote...

Permission to be cynical and blunt? I the thing they wanted Miranda to do a Heel Face turn as fast as possible. Keeping the base will lead to atrocities in ME3, and they don't want her associated with that.

I agree with this.

Especially considering Cerberus' track record *sighs and rub temples*

I just hope TIM doesn't do something stupid and end up with a indoctrinated super soldier stalking Shepard to take him down.

Already happened.  Though Grayson didn't go after Shepard (if he had the book would've been all of five pages long since Shepard takes no one's BS).

Poor TIM.  My best friend had a very interesting theory on why characters like TIM and Aria tend to get handed the Villain Ball despite being presented as intelligent, genre-savvy characters.  They aren't the primary antagonists.  They can be antagonistic toward Shep, but their ultimate purpose isn't to oppose Shep like, say, Irenicus toward the Bhaalspawn or the Emperor toward the Spirit Monk.  Their purpose is to advance the plot.  And that means Villain Ball.

[Ieldra]

Well, Harbinger doesn't exactly come across as super-smart either.... and it *does* belong to the primary antagonists.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 26 janvier 2011 - 11:09 .

[Ieldra]

OK, to get into less unruly waters....I believe we discussed the "love?" response in Miranda's third romance conversation.



Would anyone here have found it appropriate if that line had been the middle option, and "It doesn't matter. What matters is what we feel" the upper option? Would that have made the actual content of the option less surprising - and offputting for some?

[Ryzaki]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Well, Harbinger doesn't exactly come across as super-smart either.... and it *does* belong to the primary antagonists.

Harbinger sounds like he wants to molest Shepard in a dark alley not destroy the world.

Sorry had to get that off my chest.

And yeah Idiot ball gets passed around too much in this game. *looks at the council*

I hope the CB decision is relegated to backgroud noise in ME3...oh who am I kidding of course it'll be background noise. M3 has to be "accessible to new players!" after al.

Sorry excuse the bitterness. <_<

[jtav]

Ieldra2 wrote...

OK, to get into less unruly waters....I believe we discussed the "love?" response in Miranda's third romance conversation.

Would anyone here have found it appropriate if that line had been the middle option, and "It doesn't matter. What matters is what we feel" the upper option? Would that have made the actual content of the option less surprising - and offputting for some?

Not really. I'd still be expecting something along the lines of "Wait a minute? You love me?"

[Sable Rhapsody]

jtav wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

OK, to get into less unruly waters....I believe we discussed the "love?" response in Miranda's third romance conversation.

Would anyone here have found it appropriate if that line had been the middle option, and "It doesn't matter. What matters is what we feel" the upper option? Would that have made the actual content of the option less surprising - and offputting for some?

Not really. I'd still be expecting something along the lines of "Wait a minute? You love me?"

The fact that love got brought up at all was a bit of a WAT moment for me.  I would've expected Miranda to say something about fraternization or attraction, not love.  It kinda came out of the blue.