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[Elyvern]

Oh yes...I was quite taken aback that she actually uses that word. I was like "whoa, whoa...girl, aren't you jumping into the conclusion a tad too hastily?"

[Ryzaki]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

jtav wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

OK, to get into less unruly waters....I believe we discussed the "love?" response in Miranda's third romance conversation.

Would anyone here have found it appropriate if that line had been the middle option, and "It doesn't matter. What matters is what we feel" the upper option? Would that have made the actual content of the option less surprising - and offputting for some?

Not really. I'd still be expecting something along the lines of "Wait a minute? You love me?"

The fact that love got brought up at all was a bit of a WAT moment for me.  I would've expected Miranda to say something about fraternization or attraction, not love.  It kinda came out of the blue.

Ah I agree. It was a bit of a double take.

That said at least it didn't feel as sleezy as it does when Jacob says it.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ryzaki wrote...

Ah I agree. It was a bit of a double take.

That said at least it didn't feel as sleezy as it does when Jacob says it.

NOTHING feels as sleazy as the romance dialogue for Jacob.  If only he'd actually been voiced by Old Spice guy, it would've been such win.  And less sleazy.

I suppose with Paragon Shep, it's fair for Miranda to assume he's talking about love.  With Renegade Shep it seems a little more out there, and the Renegade response is quite fitting.

[jtav]

To be fair to Miranda, she also refers to an "idiotic bunch of hormones." I don't think either she or Shepard (at least going by dialogue--RP will vary) are in love. They may het there though, and she definitely cares about him.

[Sable Rhapsody]

jtav wrote...

To be fair to Miranda, she also refers to an "idiotic bunch of hormones." I don't think either she or Shepard (at least going by dialogue--RP will vary) are in love. They may het there though, and she definitely cares about him.

Oh, right--I forgot about her line on the hormones.  That makes more sense.  She's probably just frustrated that her feelings for Shep are beginning to interfere with her opinion and judgments of him.

[Ieldra]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

jtav wrote...

To be fair to Miranda, she also refers to an "idiotic bunch of hormones." I don't think either she or Shepard (at least going by dialogue--RP will vary) are in love. They may het there though, and she definitely cares about him.

Oh, right--I forgot about her line on the hormones.  That makes more sense.  She's probably just frustrated that her feelings for Shep are beginning to interfere with her opinion and judgments of him.

That's what I've always thought. However, I'm reasonably confident they can keep their professional and private lives separate.

[Ieldra]

Here's a question I believe hasn't been posted in this thread:

What does your Shepard, or what do your various Shepards - as opposed to you - think of Miranda and why? Of course there's no accounting for love, but apart from that it's usually pretty obvious why someone appreciates another. This also applies to femSheps. If your Shepard dislikes her, that's also OK but keep it civil, please. Like, dislike, professional appreciation, wariness, reserved trust - what is it? And why?

(I'll post my stuff later - don't want to kill this question with a wall of text)

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 janvier 2011 - 07:10 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ieldra2 wrote...]

What does your Shepard, or what do your various Shepards - as opposed to you - think of Miranda and why? 

My Sheps and Miranda have a hilarious tendency to get off on the wrong foot.

Renegon ManShep (Jamie Shepard):  He starts out thinking Miranda is arrogant and bossy with a pole up her arse.  He does grudgingly respect her intelligence and capabilities, and certainly finds her physically attractive, but for a good part of ME2, he thinks she's no fun and she thinks he's being an idiot.  They do eventually learn to see past one another's idiosyncracies--Miranda forces Jamie to grow up and he helps her lighten up.  By the end of ME2, she's probably the only person he considers a true equal, and he really does love her, though he'd never admit it.

"Canon" Paragade FemShep (Kaliya Shepard): Her impression of Miranda developed along the same lines as mine.  She really was not jazzed about having Miranda, a Cerberus loyalist, on her ship.  She hated Cerberus and barely managed civility with the Cerberus crew.  But again, she had to respect Miranda's dedication to the mission and unyielding spirit.  Once she started seeing past the whole Cerberus thing, she realized that she and Miranda are very much alike--both cool-headed, intelligent, highly driven women with no real peers.  Miranda became her friend, and one of the few people she trusts, especially after the Collector Base.  

[gabrielk2020]

I think my Shepard would feel a degree of sympathy for Miranda (but wouldn't actually say that since it wouldn't go over well), as she was to an extent robbed of choice. She was made to be a certain thing, first by her father, then by Cerberus. But also there would be respect for the way Miranda took the hand that was dealt and played the hell out of it.



My Shepard, I imagine sees a lot of similarity between Miranda and Jack--both are more alike than they would admit or accept (and again my Shepard would never say this aloud to either of them). Both were robbed of the opportunity to live a normal life and have a normal childhood.

[Ryzaki]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Here's a question I believe hasn't been posted in this thread:

What does your Shepard, or what do your various Shepards - as opposed to you - think of Miranda and why? Of course there's no accounting for love, but apart from that it's usually pretty obvious why someone appreciates another. This also applies to femSheps. If your Shepard dislikes her, that's also OK but keep it civil, please. Like, dislike, professional appreciation, wariness, reserved trust - what is it? And why?

(I'll post my stuff later - don't want to kill this question with a wall of text)

My canon Shepard is pretty neutral on her. She's ruthless and a Cerberus loyalist which at first makes him want to scream. (He can't stand for what they did to Toombs and Kohaku) but over time he gradualy starts to respect her for her independence and strength even if he highly disagrees with her views. He isn't attracted to her romantically but he finds her to be someone he can count on to get something done. Even if he would never trust her with his back (mostly because that's reserved for the ME1 squaddies) Or maybe he will eventually...I just have to see what ME3 brings. He does eventually express his gratitude for her reviving him.

My uncanon SS Shepard wants to shoot her in the face (that said he wants to shoot just about everyone in the face so...). She's a Cerberus loyalist through and through, he refused to help her with her sister (out of sheer spite thinking that Cerberus (female dog) could handle her own business on her own time) [Did the same thing to Jacob/Jack/Everyone but Thane/Tali and Garrus]. He finds her physically attractive and admires her ruthlessness but the fact that she's such a Cerberus apologist means the two of them will never see eye to eye. And once she made that control chip comment. *whistles* Wasn't a pretty sight. Sadly by the time he starts to respect her (at the CB when she resigns) she kicks the bucket.

My other Shepard sees her as a lost child (yeah I know patonizing!) that just wants to feel needed by someone. He thinks that she tries hard to feel useful so that she can garner some type of affection, some special attention. Even if its for merely being useful. [I don't think he's right but that's what he thinks]. He sees her self-esteem issues as an extension of that. 

I have a couple of other Shepards for whom she is simply background noise. They're grateful she saved them but that's pretty much it other than straight to business.

The one Shep that romanced her I couldn't really get into. But well he loved her

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 janvier 2011 - 09:10 .

[Bourne Endeavor]

jtav wrote...

Permission to be cynical and blunt? I the thing they wanted Miranda to do a Heel Face turn as fast as possible. Keeping the base will lead to atrocities in ME3, and they don't want her associated with that.

I am going to step in on this one. I honestly doubt keeping the base will have significant ramifications in ME3. If it became plot-centric the narrative would have to incorporate two radically different stories. Frankly, I would not be surprised if Liara replaced Cerberus as the centralized informant and Cerberus held a backseat position. At best the Base will amount to whether or not Shepard continues relations with Cerberus or severs ties. It will have virtually no impact on the main plot. Of course, I am simply speculating.

I believe Miranda's abrupt turn is primarily meant to reinforce the stereotypical "This decision is Good and that decision is Evil" mentality. Her betrayal of TIM if the paragon decision is chosen cements the notion Cerberus is evil. Remember, ME2 was designed with a standalone complex in mind. Newcomers would have less reason to be weary of Cerberus had they not experienced Mass Effect. I do like the development for Miranda mind you. It could have better executed.

That said, I adhere strongly to keeping the base. The decision is moronic and should have been whether you hand it over to Cerberus, solidifying your loyalty them or return to the Alliance, and thereby passing all information to them. Regardless, we are left with something that provides intel, evidence and could have been what kept the Omega 4 Relay stable. Tis something to hang onto. Granted, I understand the dislike of giving it to Cerberus, hence my qualm with the choice.

[Breakdown Boy]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

jtav wrote...

Permission to be cynical and blunt? I the thing they wanted Miranda to do a Heel Face turn as fast as possible. Keeping the base will lead to atrocities in ME3, and they don't want her associated with that.

I am going to step in on this one. I honestly doubt keeping the base will have significant ramifications in ME3. If it became plot-centric the narrative would have to incorporate two radically different stories. Frankly, I would not be surprised if Liara replaced Cerberus as the centralized informant and Cerberus held a backseat position. At best the Base will amount to whether or not Shepard continues relations with Cerberus or severs ties. It will have virtually no impact on the main plot. Of course, I am simply speculating.

I believe Miranda's abrupt turn is primarily meant to reinforce the stereotypical "This decision is Good and that decision is Evil" mentality. Her betrayal of TIM if the paragon decision is chosen cements the notion Cerberus is evil. Remember, ME2 was designed with a standalone complex in mind. Newcomers would have less reason to be weary of Cerberus had they not experienced Mass Effect. I do like the development for Miranda mind you. It could have better executed.

That said, I adhere strongly to keeping the base. The decision is moronic and should have been whether you hand it over to Cerberus, solidifying your loyalty them or return to the Alliance, and thereby passing all information to them. Regardless, we are left with something that provides intel, evidence and could have been what kept the Omega 4 Relay stable. Tis something to hang onto. Granted, I understand the dislike of giving it to Cerberus, hence my qualm with the choice.

I disagree.

Keep the base: Miranda stays with Cerberus and Council will see giving the base to Cerberus as helping them become the most powerfull group in the Galaxy (excl Reapers).

Destroy the bas: Miranda leaves Cerberus and Cerberus kept from gaining too much power.

Also Miranda might have been thinking about Cerberus' actions for a long time, especially after the Jack loyalty mission. She would obviousely not admit it to her but she might actually agree with Jack and that Cerberus was at fault. So her decision on the suicide mission isn't that random.

[Ieldra]

I disagree, Breakdown Boy. Shepard has the Reaper IFF and EDI is loyal to Shepard, so it should be easy to keep the base intact *and* keep it out of TIM's hands.

The whole "keeping the base means you're a Cerberus supporter" angle sucks. It's unconvincing. We should have the option to keep the base intact but not to give anyone access to it for now, to give Cerberus access to it, or to give the Alliance access to it, analogous to the choice in the "Lost Operative" sidequest. Miranda should resign in the second and third choice for Shepard would've cut ties with Cerberus in both.

The decisions about destroying or keeping the base and the decision about who to support should be independent from each other. But no, Bioware wouldn't let us do the patently obvious.

Bourne Endeavor wrote...
I believe Miranda's abrupt turn is primarily meant to reinforce the stereotypical "This decision is Good and that decision is Evil" mentality. Her betrayal of TIM if the paragon decision is chosen cements the notion Cerberus is evil. Remember, ME2 was designed with a standalone complex in mind. Newcomers would have less reason to be weary of Cerberus had they not experienced Mass Effect. I do like the development for Miranda mind you. It could have better executed.

Yes, and I resent that. The ME games have, so far, made a pretty good effort at presenting choices without sledgehammering players towards one. The Council choice, the Balak choice, the Rachni queen etc.. Sure, you could tell that probably the Paragon choice would turn out better, but that was a result of meta-reasoning. If you roleplayed it was easy to see the benefits of both sides and none were portrayed as evil. That changes with the CB - you can still roleplay and see the benefits of both sides, but suddenly, if you keep it you're keeping an "abomination" intact and you're a Cerberus supporter, and Cerberus is clearly made to be perceived as evil.

Fortunately a lot of players weren't fooled: according to figures published by Bioware, the base was kept in 37% of all games. I very much doubt the majority of those players would consider themselves Cerberus supporters. And I'm quite convinced a lot of the rest only destroyed the base to see Miranda resign. I know I've done that in one game.

I have to give Bioware credit for one thing, though: they clearly designed this decision to be controversial, and wow, didn't they have a spectacular success with that! 63/37% is as close to "split down the middle" as you can expect without having advance knowledge, and a year after ME2 came out people are still debating out it.

But I hate that I don't have the option of keeping the base intact, denying access to TIM and making Miranda resign.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 janvier 2011 - 12:06 .

[Ieldra]

While I'm at it: does anyone else feel that Bioware is giving Miranda fans a particularly hard time?



She's the only character whose character development is influenced by a plot choice, and she's the only character who's been given a serious problem instead of an interesting but in the in end inconsequential insight into her life in the LotSB dossier.



So, Bioware if you read this: I expect you to make up for that in ME3!

[lawp79]

I think Bioware are treating Miranda in much the same way as Ashley, both divide opinion but then both are extremely well written. However I do expect Miranda to have a significant role in mass effect 3 (more than I can say for ash, but I can dream) at least I hope she will as she is my second fav character.

[jtav]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Here's a question I believe hasn't been posted in this thread:

What does your Shepard, or what do your various Shepards - as opposed to you - think of Miranda and why? Of course there's no accounting for love, but apart from that it's usually pretty obvious why someone appreciates another. This also applies to femSheps. If your Shepard dislikes her, that's also OK but keep it civil, please. Like, dislike, professional appreciation, wariness, reserved trust - what is it? And why?

(I'll post my stuff later - don't want to kill this question with a wall of text)

Aliana Shepard (Spacer/Ruthless): Liked her from the first. They share a similar way of looking at the world and the tendency to do horrible things to the best of reasons. They confide in each other in a way they don't anyone else, even their romantic partners. Aliana thinks Miranda is one of the most remarkable people she's ever met and has made a personal promise to kill her father if she ever gets the chance for how he's treated his daughter. She sleeps with Kaidan and Thane, but she really loves Miranda.

Mara Shepard: (Earthborn/Sole Survivor): Is basically Jack with slightly more discipline and thinks of Miranda accordingly. She's violent and rage-filled and takes out most of her frustration over being forced to work with Cerberus on Miranda. Didn't bother doing her loyalty mission and would probably sell out Oriana out of spite if given the opportunity. Miranda's resignation shocked her to the core. The "Cerberus b*tch" was supposed to stab her in the back, but she didn't. Miranda's subsequent death may or may not cause her to reevaluate her life.

Andrew Shepard (Colonist/War Hero): Look up creep in the dictionary and you will find this guy. Outwardly, he despises her. She's a ruthless little terrorist renegade, and he has heroic image to maintain. Inwardly, he would welcome the chance to mold her to his will, and turn her into something more acceptable. He's the savior of the galaxy. Doesn't he deserve a beautiful woman on his arm? Needless to say, I'm not playing him in a way that he never gets that chance. I can think of nothing worse than being in a relationship with this guy.

Gavin Shepard (Spacer/Sole Survivor): Despised her in a distant way at first, but also respected her competence and dedication to the mission. Attracted to her, but perfectly capable of controlling himself. She saved his life at great the physical cost to herself during Grunt's LM when he had a flashback seeing the thresher maw. Best buddy Wrex sent him into this situation. The Cerberus operative got him out of it. Maybe he needs to rethink his feelings for her. Her obvious love and devotion for her sister really touched him, and made him realize that this was someone he could love. Has been desperately trying to make up for his earlier treatment of her ever since. Is seriously considering asking her to marry him, but wonders if that might be too conventional for her. On a professional level, they disagree frequently. He's a Paragon, but a genuine one, and lacks Andrew's smug certainty that he's doing the right thing. Emotion and Reason working together, that's them.

[snfonseka]

Too much text, so here is an image.

[Blze001]

snfonseka wrote...

Too much text, so here is an image.

Secon'd


She has a little Renegade in her left eye. That should've tipped Wilson off.

Modifié par Blze001, 27 janvier 2011 - 07:48 .

[Ieldra]

Blze001 wrote...
Secon'd


She has a little Renegade in her left eye. That should've tipped Wilson off.

Miranda has no Renegade eye:

[Ryzaki]

^I'm not sure if its a glitch or not but I've gotten that red glint plenty of times.

[Ieldra]

Ryzaki wrote...
^I'm not sure if its a glitch or not but I've gotten that red glint plenty of times.

Actually, it's impossible to shoot that scene without getting the red eye. I wonder how it got there, such a thing is usually an artifact of artificial lighting in real photography. To see it in an animated game is almost creepy.

As for the screenshot: I doctored it.

[Ryzaki]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
^I'm not sure if its a glitch or not but I've gotten that red glint plenty of times.

Actually, it's impossible to shoot that scene without getting the red eye. I wonder how it got there, such a thing is usually an artifact of artificial lighting in real photography. To see it in an animated game is almost creepy.

As for the screenshot: I doctored it.

Yeah...defintely was intentional.

[Ieldra]

Ryzaki wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
^I'm not sure if its a glitch or not but I've gotten that red glint plenty of times.

Actually, it's impossible to shoot that scene without getting the red eye. I wonder how it got there, such a thing is usually an artifact of artificial lighting in real photography. To see it in an animated game is almost creepy.

As for the screenshot: I doctored it.

Yeah...defintely was intentional.

That wasn't what I was getting at. I was wondering if animated eyes are getting so realistic that they'd reflect light sources within the animated scene like real eyes would. The eyes of the ME characters are the most realistic I've ever seen in a game.

[Ryzaki]

Ieldra2 wrote...
That wasn't what I was getting at. I was wondering if animated eyes are getting so realistic that they'd reflect light sources within the animated scene like real eyes would. The eyes of the ME characters are the most realistic I've ever seen in a game.

Hm...I'm not sure about that. I've seen lnty of bugged eyes (which creeped me the hell out) in game. I'm not fond of photo-realism in my games.

The meeting on the Presidum with the council is a prime offendor.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The whole "keeping the base means you're a Cerberus supporter" angle sucks. It's unconvincing. We should have the option to keep the base intact but not to give anyone access to it for now, to give Cerberus access to it, or to give the Alliance access to it, analogous to the choice in the "Lost Operative" sidequest. Miranda should resign in the second and third choice for Shepard would've cut ties with Cerberus in both.

THIS.  100% this.

My canon Shepard destroyed the base because she knows Reaper technology tends to screw those who try to use it, and because Cerberus has a glittering track record of stupidity when it comes to experimentation.  Had she been given any REMOTELY reasonable third option, she would've kept the base without a second thought.  

But no, our only options are destroying the invaluable tech or handing it to a group of ethically stunted idiots who are just as likely to shoot themselves in the foot as they are to do any good with it.  It's a crapshoot.

Ieldra2 wrote...

While I'm at it: does anyone else feel that Bioware is giving Miranda fans a particularly hard time? 

She's the only character whose character development is influenced by a plot choice, and she's the only character who's been given a serious problem instead of an interesting but in the in end inconsequential insight into her life in the LotSB dossier.

I think the Thane fans have everyone beat here   Since he's, you know, DYING.  As opposed to Put On A Bus or infertile.