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[Breakdown Boy]

Man! I haven't been in this thread for a while! Man I finished the new DLC the other night and was slightly dissapointed that the only extra dialogue is that of Shepard. But I guess that's all we can hope for.



Would like a DLC that is only active after the suicide mission and that involves your squad a bit more.

[kraidy1117]

Breakdown Boy wrote...

Man! I haven't been in this thread for a while! Man I finished the new DLC the other night and was slightly dissapointed that the only extra dialogue is that of Shepard. But I guess that's all we can hope for.

Would like a DLC that is only active after the suicide mission and that involves your squad a bit more.

Chud has said there will be DLC in the future that will be post-suicide mission stuff, character DLC and stuff that bridge ME3. It knida makes sence no one talks in Overlord expect for Shepard because they would need to get all 12 VAs back, and I beleive Yvonne is finishing her movie right now. We can only hope for character DLC for her.

[TheSixthghoul]

Anyways a another song from Scissor Sisters Everybody wants the same thing from the album Ta Dah www.youtube.com/watch
So I'm going to bed see everyone in the morning...

Oh yes! Before I forget,if anyone is a Joker fan like myself,who doesn't get the need for fancy dialogue or making him a romance, I suggest you avoid his "support" thread. The op is kind of a troll on his own thread. Really rude to, for what he said I should report him. Just a heads up.

Well again, good night.

Modifié par Sixth Goul, 22 juin 2010 - 06:15 .

[Ieldra]

Breakdown Boy wrote...
Would like a DLC that is only active after the suicide mission and that involves your squad a bit more.

Hi Breakdown Boy, nice to see you here again... I guess I should welcome you with....

[Breakdown Boy]

Thanks Shadow & Ieldra!



Yep, I have been MIA of late. I have been playing GTA4 for the first time and got so sucked inot that. But I thought I should make a turn at my favourite character thread.



Kraidy - That would be cool, man I can't wait for ME3. Well at least I will be upgrading to Windows7 and be able to play some of the upcoming games. I hope RDR will be available on PC soon, looks really cool.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Suppose that control chip would influence not what you can or cannot do, but what you want and don't want to do. It would influence your emotions, and thus, your will, and never cause you any pain. Its influence would then be undetectable, because you could do what you want at all times, except when being hindered by outside influences. Nothing would feel different. Only what you want to do would be different from what you'd want to do without it.

Would it still be wrong to use such a thing? Yeah...we all answer yes. But: why? And "Because I feel it's wrong" is not acceptable as an answer. Also consider that we all don't know how far we're programmed. We assume we're free but we don't know.

Yes. It would be worse than something that acts as a failsafe by causing you pain or killing you when you take certain actions. One of the things that makes people people is the capacity to make moral judgments and to choose, for better or for worse. Take away the ability to make those decisions (even if you can't act on them) and man becomes an organic robot who's only following his programming. Free will is sacred for me.

I would also answer yes, but for different reasons. First such a thing would enable power accumulation on a scale that has the potential to take everyone's choices away (btw, compare the unlimited accumulation of money for a weaker, but similar effect). On an individual scale, there's also the undisputed fact that no one wants a control chip in his own head as the rule, and that deserves consideration. Though that reason is weaker than it appears - no one wants to pay taxes either and still we accept it for the greater good.

As for free will, I do not know that I am not an organic robot. I do not know that free will exists, and I very much suspect that it doesn't. So I really don't mind being an organic robot. What I would mind is being an organic robot controlled by another human (or any other intelligent being) instead of some impersonal random set of influences.

Anyway, it does seem my attempt to induce a debate about this has largely failed....

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 juin 2010 - 07:19 .

[Ieldra]

Andaius20 wrote...


Miri with Geth pulse rifle, finishing off a Human reaper? I have a pic of that!

This just NEEDS to be followed up by...

[kraidy1117]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Andaius20 wrote...


Miri with Geth pulse rifle, finishing off a Human reaper? I have a pic of that!

This just NEEDS to be followed up by...

I almost had a heart attack when that happen in my first playthrough.

[Ieldra]

Lord Zeuss wrote...
Miranda is interesting because she is clearly set up as a proto-Illusive Woman, if you will. She's sort of half on her way toward being another Machiavellian pseudo-tyrant, but if you care to look closer, you can see that she still possesses a rudimentary moral code (I submit Oriana into state's evidence). Granted, at the beginning of the game, this is by and large suppressed , but as events progress (and probably not without some persuasion on Shep's part) that little kernel of humanity becomes more evident in her character. Compare the way she executed Wilson in cold blood to her reluctance to kill Niket (even though she accepted the necessity of it and was no less committed to the act). Yes, Shepard does have to intervene to prevent her from doing so, but her hesitation is a marked deviation from strict adherence to an ends-justify-the-means philosophy. If she believed in that completely, she wouldn't be so resentful of the way her father treated her, because after all, he was what made her the way she is, and if the ends justify the means then the way he treated her should be a good thing, but she clearly doesn't feel that way.

She has a flawed moral compass, but as she can show at the end of the game, they are not irrevocable flaws. The Illusive Man outright lacks a moral compass of any kind, flawed or otherwise.

In closing, the Miranda from the beginning of the game would have been physically incapable of performing the following action with anywhere near the degree of sincerity that she did.

That's what does it for me every time. I look at that and think, "How far you've come, Miri."

I do not see quite as much change in her moral perspective. Her love for her sister has obviously been a constant in her life. And killing Wilson is different from killing Niket - Niket had been her oldest friend, it would have been unbelievably callous to kill him without some measure of regret. I don't think Miranda has ever been callous, she has only prioritized expediency before empathy as a rule. 
I like that her morality is fluid, and that she's capable of weighing every single decision instead of sticking to principles at all costs. There are some lines I can't imagine her crossing, but throughout the game she often presents the expedient perspective. I like her for that.

Her changes have less to do with morality than with coming to respect and trust Shepard. As she comes to accept that Shepard and her work towards the same goals, and that he's exceptionally good at what he does, working with him becomes something she can be proud of instead of wary. That's what the salute means. And that's why she's ready to resign - because she now trusts Shepards to do better for the cause Cerberus claims to work for than TIM.

[Ieldra]

Da Shadow Master wrote...

SIZE......MATTERS!!!

Oh and have any of you 360 users picked up  Miri's avatar outfit?
I have
../../../../uploads_user/839000/838282/35002.jpg

Why can't I see this image?

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I can't stop staring at the picture Ieldra posted on page 46. I can't get over how blue her eyes are. She's an astonishingly beautiful woman. Literally breathtaking.

I'd give anything to know more about her backstory. Here's hoping Bioware expands on it in ME3. Valmy may give me a hard time, but I like my morally ambiguous superspy. And I do like her ambiguity. Here's hoping she keeps it in ME3.

There's nothing more to say about this than: You have my complete agreement! About her beauty, her blue eyes, her moral ambiguousness. I also hope she keeps it in ME3 and it's expanded upon.

@Da Shadow Master:
I can see it now. Funny...

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 juin 2010 - 07:47 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I've been reading over the reasons to like Miranda and have come up with another one, though I'm not sure if it makes sense. She's an unapologetically sexual creature who enjoys it. And yet, for all the ass shots, her character is not presented as a ****. She's just as capable of forming lasting romantic connections as anyone else. There's no trauma needed to "explain" it. She's simply allowed to enjoy sex, even sex in engine rooms. It's not that long ago that a character like that would have been presented as a villain out to seduce our hero, only to lose him to a mire conventional heroine. And yet, Miranda is allowed the same happy ending as any ME2 LI. I find that refreshing.

It does make quite a lot of sense, and I agree. I'll work this into the FAQ.

[Ieldra]

JonDoe297 wrote...

That's interesting. Makes a work of art from a screenshot. How did you do it?

[Jebel Krong]

Ieldra2 wrote...

JonDoe297 wrote...

That's interesting. Makes a work of art from a screenshot. How did you do it?

cutout tool in photoshop, does it autmoatically.

[Jebel Krong]

[Ieldra]

Updated the Miranda Lawson FAQ. Added jtav's suggestion to the reasons for liking Miranda. See four posts above this for a complete quote of her post. jtav, I have rephrased your text for brevity. If you think something's missing, tell me.

[Markinator_123]

I wonder how Miranda feel about a torture scene like this

[TheSixthghoul]

Hey guys,if you read my last post I was not in a good mood. If anyone was wondering, I'm still not. So, I'm might not be up here for a few hours, until I'm less homicidal. No need to take my frustration out on the thread, that would be... unpleasant. So, I leave you with a question, what is Miranda's attraction to Shepard and unlike with Jacob, does Shepard have a better chance of a successful relationship?

[Lord Zeuss]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Lord Zeuss wrote...
Miranda is interesting because she is clearly set up as a proto-Illusive Woman, if you will. She's sort of half on her way toward being another Machiavellian pseudo-tyrant, but if you care to look closer, you can see that she still possesses a rudimentary moral code (I submit Oriana into state's evidence). Granted, at the beginning of the game, this is by and large suppressed , but as events progress (and probably not without some persuasion on Shep's part) that little kernel of humanity becomes more evident in her character. Compare the way she executed Wilson in cold blood to her reluctance to kill Niket (even though she accepted the necessity of it and was no less committed to the act). Yes, Shepard does have to intervene to prevent her from doing so, but her hesitation is a marked deviation from strict adherence to an ends-justify-the-means philosophy. If she believed in that completely, she wouldn't be so resentful of the way her father treated her, because after all, he was what made her the way she is, and if the ends justify the means then the way he treated her should be a good thing, but she clearly doesn't feel that way.

She has a flawed moral compass, but as she can show at the end of the game, they are not irrevocable flaws. The Illusive Man outright lacks a moral compass of any kind, flawed or otherwise.

In closing, the Miranda from the beginning of the game would have been physically incapable of performing the following action with anywhere near the degree of sincerity that she did.

That's what does it for me every time. I look at that and think, "How far you've come, Miri."

I do not see quite as much change in her moral perspective. Her love for her sister has obviously been a constant in her life. And killing Wilson is different from killing Niket - Niket had been her oldest friend, it would have been unbelievably callous to kill him without some measure of regret. I don't think Miranda has ever been callous, she has only prioritized expediency before empathy as a rule. 
I like that her morality is fluid, and that she's capable of weighing every single decision instead of sticking to principles at all costs. There are some lines I can't imagine her crossing, but throughout the game she often presents the expedient perspective. I like her for that.

Her changes have less to do with morality than with coming to respect and trust Shepard. As she comes to accept that Shepard and her work towards the same goals, and that he's exceptionally good at what he does, working with him becomes something she can be proud of instead of wary. That's what the salute means. And that's why she's ready to resign - because she now trusts Shepards to do better for the cause Cerberus claims to work for than TIM.

Hmm, I think I'm looking at one side of the coin and you're looking at the other. Your argument gives more provision for Renegade Sheps than mine, but I don't really see a whole lot about the two arguments that should necessarily be mutually-exclusive.

For instance, yes, her love for her sister has obviously been constant throughout her life and she considers Niket her oldest friend. Both require some rudimentary constructs of a value system at the bare minimum. Contrast this with Morrigan (I like Morrigan, by the way, just not to the point of identifying myself as a 'fan' of hers) who really lacks values of any kind, save life, liberty, and lack of clothes. But moving on.

As for coming to respect and trust Shepard as a better doer of the ultimate Cerberus cause, well thaty boils down to a question of why? If she respects Shepard and trust him more than Cerberus, it actually begs the question why? Is something about Cerberus not completely satisfactory to her? Are there certain things she maybe doesn't entirely agree with but goes along with anyway because she sees no alternative? (I would have her leaning Paragon this way) Or, I suppose, maybe she just doesn't think Cerberus are as efficient as they could be, and Shepard is more efficient. (That would be her leaning Renegade)

Yes, I am biased toward a more agreeable Miranda, but she's like a microcosm of the entire game in that different people can see many different things in her and all be correct. Or, if not correct, in a strong enough position such that neither theirs nor an opposing position can be refuted.

In my original post, I never said outright that Miranda 'becomes more moral as the game progresses' because that wasn't what I was trying to say. I did, actually, say that 'a kernel of humanity becomes more evident'. She is a multifaceted character, and I think both our explanations are acceptable.

[Ieldra]

Added link to Breakdown Boy's fan art collection to the OP.



@Sixth Goul:

The answers to both questions depend too much on how you play your Shepard, and how you imagine him apart from what we see in the game. In my main maleShep she would probably admire that he's very careful with judging people and situations, while not being afraid of acting decisively when appropriate. Also, like her, he tends to be somewhat detached and morally flexible. I intend to give them every chance of a successful relationship, even though there may be high tension sometimes because they are both strong personalities used to being in control.



@Markinator_123:

I lacked the patience to continue watching after 3 minutes of being bored....

[Ieldra]

Lord Zeuss wrote...

Hmm, I think I'm looking at one side of the coin and you're looking at the other. Your argument gives more provision for Renegade Sheps than mine, but I don't really see a whole lot about the two arguments that should necessarily be mutually-exclusive.

Actually, I don't think in terms of Paragon/Renegade much at all. If I had to place Miranda on the scale, she would be somewhere in the middle, with Renegade or Paragon at a slight advantage depending on your interpretation of her as a character. But she definitely has both sides.

As for coming to respect and trust Shepard as a better doer of the ultimate Cerberus cause, well thaty boils down to a question of why? If she respects Shepard and trust him more than Cerberus, it actually begs the question why? Is something about Cerberus not completely satisfactory to her? Are there certain things she maybe doesn't entirely agree with but goes along with anyway because she sees no alternative? (I would have her leaning Paragon this way) Or, I suppose, maybe she just doesn't think Cerberus are as efficient as they could be, and Shepard is more efficient. (That would be her leaning Renegade)

I do think she's not comfortable with some of TIM's more extreme methods, regardless of how you play Shepard. Why else would she disavow the Teltin facitiy as a "rogue cell" instead of sticking to "the ends justify the means". And yes, methods like these are "not satisfactory" to her. This is a necessary Paragon aspect of her without which she would cross into villain territory. Depending on your interpretation, you might want to play up that element considerably in your imagination, but if she loses her ruthlessness completely she'll not be Miranda Lawson anymore. I should add that my personal interpretation of the Renegade character tends to focus on "bowing to the necessity" instead of "not having empathy". As I said, I don't think she's callous, but she does weighs the necessary expediency against giving in to empathy.

Yes, I am biased toward a more agreeable Miranda, but she's like a microcosm of the entire game in that different people can see many different things in her and all be correct. Or, if not correct, in a strong enough position such that neither theirs nor an opposing position can be refuted.

I am also biased toward an agreeable Miranda. It's just that agreeable is different for me.

In my original post, I never said outright that Miranda 'becomes more moral as the game progresses' because that wasn't what I was trying to say. I did, actually, say that 'a kernel of humanity becomes more evident'. She is a multifaceted character, and I think both our explanations are acceptable.

I greatly object to your implication that she comes across as inhuman at the start of the game. I also object to the implication that someone who bows to necessity in favor of giving in to empathy is somehow less human than someone who does the opposite. Both are facets of human behaviour and should be valued for what they are, and conventional morality be damned. Renegade is not evil, even though some of Shepard's Renegade actions are.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 juin 2010 - 12:26 .

[Lord Zeuss]

Ieldra2 wrote...

In my original post, I never said outright that Miranda 'becomes more moral as the game progresses' because that wasn't what I was trying to say. I did, actually, say that 'a kernel of humanity becomes more evident'. She is a multifaceted character, and I think both our explanations are acceptable.

I greatly object to your implication that she comes across as inhuman at the start of the game. I also object to the implication that someone who bows to necessity in favor of giving in to empathy is somehow less human than someone who does the opposite.

Well, I wanted to avoid using 'ice queen' anywhere in my statements, but it would seem this has backfired. Let me restate: At the beginning of the game, Miranda presents to you her cold, ice queen persona because that's what suits her situation at the time. But as the game progresses, allowing us to get a deeper look into her character, we are shown some of the cogs that grind beneath that veneer of coldness (love for Oriana, limits to her acceptance of Cerberus methods, contempt for her father's agenda, respect of Shepard).

My miscommunicated point was that different facets of Miranda's character surface as the story goes on, which allowed me, personally, to form a better and deeper connection with her. Since I happen to consider morality a basic component of human intellect, my perception of its presence within Miranda's psyche played a significant role in the development of said connection.

But perhaps it was pretentious of me to assume that others might have had the same experience as I. I will not cede my subjective experience as invalid, but I won't assume that anyone else might think the same as me. Like I said, different people can see different things in Miranda and still be correct.

Both are facets of human behaviour and should be valued for what they
are,

I agree, nothing to disagree here.

and conventional morality be damned.

Walk away from this, please.

Renegade is not evil, even
though some of Shepard's Renegade actions are.

This is why I liked ME1's morality meter system better than ME2's. ME2 pretty much railroads you into or the other, every act of decrepit Renegade cruelty going hand in hand with the more rational, practical Renegade actions. ME1 presented a continuum of choices, whereas ME2 really only gave you two options.

I agree in principle, except when taken to extremes.