Aller au contenu

Photo

Miranda Lawson - our favorite woman in the galaxy (III)


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
15168 réponses à ce sujet

#12226
Elyvern

Elyvern
  • Members
  • 1 172 messages

TheMarshal wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

that pretty much describes (at least) lazarus miranda. technical people are the ones you want in charge, however they do tend to lack those personal/management skills and the ability to kiss-ass. however management + science = cheap + bad.


I don't want to derail this thread too badly, but I disagree that you necessarily want someone with technical skills leading a technical team.  Sure, you want someone who can at the very leas understand what's going on, but in my professional opinion a good manager is someone who ensures that the 'talent' has everything they need to get the project done as efficiently as possible, and stays out of their way otherwise.

I suppose if you're looking at it where Miranda is the lead technical person on the project rather than someone in a management position (which I suppose is closer to how it actually went down), then yes, her technical skills were very important.  The above still stands, though.  You want someone who knows how to delegate work properly and ensure that the rest of her team is on top of things without necessarily getting in their way.  Otherwise you're micromanaging and wind up doing all the work anyway.


I'd actually imagine that we can take the middle ground here and say Miranda does possesses both the technical as well as the management skills to lead a project like Lazarus. She is labelled as a "jack of all trades", a mario-type figure in gameplay as well as in the story. Given that 150 "true" operatives are on Cerberus's payroll on average, we can safely assume that the number of people involved, even if it's an important project, would likely be very few, with many of the personnel doubling up certain roles.

It's definitely not farfetched at all to presuppose that she would be well-versed in both respects. In terms of technical skill, there's the likelihood she isn't as much of a specialist as Wilson, but her style of mangement does involve a certain amount of micro-management. All the times Shepard was on the operation table, she was at hand to oversee the reconstruction process, even to the point of countermanding Wilson's decisions.  

#12227
SanitariumPr

SanitariumPr
  • Members
  • 68 messages

Jebel Krong wrote...

as promised i properly fixed my previous wallpaper, so you shouldn't see any odd watermarks even on bright monitors:
Posted Image


Just amasing... just amasing... damn that the artist has not made FemShep  -  I would want one FemShep and Garrus this way :innocent:

#12228
TheMarshal

TheMarshal
  • Members
  • 2 339 messages

Elyvern wrote...

I'd actually imagine that we can take the middle ground here and say Miranda does possesses both the technical as well as the management skills to lead a project like Lazarus. She is labelled as a "jack of all trades", a mario-type figure in gameplay as well as in the story. Given that 150 "true" operatives are on Cerberus's payroll on average, we can safely assume that the number of people involved, even if it's an important project, would likely be very few, with many of the personnel doubling up certain roles.

It's definitely not farfetched at all to presuppose that she would be well-versed in both respects. In terms of technical skill, there's the likelihood she isn't as much of a specialist as Wilson, but her style of mangement does involve a certain amount of micro-management. All the times Shepard was on the operation table, she was at hand to oversee the reconstruction process, even to the point of countermanding Wilson's decisions.  


True enough.  Micro-management tends to happen when you don't necessarily respect the talent/skill of those underneath you, and I can definitely see Miranda behaving that way.

#12229
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25 190 messages
I'm crossposting this post about Miranda's infertility, since the quoted posts come from another forum and may be of interest to some. This is what I have posted, at different times, about this topic:

I fully appreciate Miranda's genetic engineering. I think that her father did something desirable in the spirit of human advancement when he created her, and only nullified any merit he might have claimed for it by his underlying ideology and by the way he treated her as a child. Completely apart from the personality I have come to love, Miranda represents an advancement of humanity. I like to imagine that her improved traits eventually will make their way into the human gene pool at large through her offspring.

So, in a purely genetic and impersonal way, I *want* her on that pedestal. I *want* her to be the forerunner of a kind of human advancement that has nothing to do with political domination, and everything with improving individual capabilities and understanding through human ingenuity.

For that reason, I want her to be fully functional as a human woman. That she is not flawless in her reasoning we know, we also know that she has serious problems due to her upbringing. It is enough. I do not subscribe to the school of thought that a character must be loaded with flaws to be sympathetic, and I find it one of the most contemptible human traits to refuse sympathy to someone especially gifted unless that person has some trait that completely cancels that out.

This explains why, even though her infertility will not influence the relationship any of my Shepards has with her one bit, and not lessen in any way my regard for her, I nonetheless hate her infertility with a passion.


I don't mind Miranda having some permanent medical condition. I mind her having exactly this medical condition because it would make that "human advancement" angle die in its infancy, making her, indeed, the end of it. Or so I've thought until I realized that her father's technology would be a means to create biological children of her own.

In the end it's all about the big picture. As for the personal, I want a reasonably happy ending for Miranda, with or without children, it doesn't really matter. She is and stays my favorite character with or without the infertility. I don't see it as insulting, though it is heavy-handed and generally disagreeable. What I mind, that's the possible intention on Bioware's part of precluding anyone from interpreting Miranda's genetic engineering as something both desirable and successful in the long term, for humanity. As I do that and will continue to do it, I feel that my interpretation of Miranda's background is punished by the developers. That's the insult.

Anyway, as for ways around the problem, while medical knowledge and technology aren't perfect in the ME universe, it's simply not believable that an infertility caused by a simple condition is something you can't get around with the level of biotechnology we have witnessed in the game. Which way exactly, that remains to be seen. I've come to prefer jtav's scenario that Miranda will be able to use her father's methods to make biological children of her own, counteracting the flaws in her own upbringring by being a better parent that her father was to her. That would indicate that she's made peace with who and what she is, and bring home the fact that the flaw does not lie in the origin but in the upbringing. That's a message I'd like to see sent.


Against the argument that her improvements are superficial:

Miranda has quite a few non-superficial improvements:

"I heal quickly and I'll likely live half again as long as the average human"
"My reflexes, my strength, even my looks -- they're all designed to give me an edge"

You can also tell she's engineered to be more intelligent.

I agree that the way she was advertised is one-sided.


Against the argument that she needed this to be "humanized"

Grr...
I hate this argument with a passion. She was fine as she was. She doesn't need to be infertile to make people understand her. And she definitely didn't need to be "humanized" Gods, how I hate this term. Miranda is human enough, thrice damn it!

If people can't deal with a confident woman they should look for someone else. If they have the need to drag every companion down below their own level - and the need to do this indicates a very low level indeed - they should look for someone else.

Yes, it was intended to make people go "poor Miranda". It is not a negative way to put it, it *is* negative to start with.


As for a solution: It is not believable that the woman who brought a man back from the dead is unable to come up with way to have a child if she wants to. But anyway, in my view the best way to deal with it is to give us a number of options in an after-the-end conversation (like those after the final battle in the throne in DAO), where we can basically define how things stand by making Shepard say, for instance, one of these things:

Option 1: I never wanted children anyway, and I can't see you as a mother.
Option 2: You brought me back from the dead. Curing you shouldn't be a big problem now that we've got the time.
Option 3: We'll have to live with it - but humanity owes you for that sacrifice, and I won't let them forget it.

While I'm at it. I have read several posts over the time where people said they'd break up with Miranda because of this. That's their prerogative of course, but her infertility does not reduce her great personality one bit, it does not take anything away from her attraction, it does not make her in any way less fascinating - and it also does not make her more sympathetic. She already is - as Samara says - a woman with many burdens she doesn't choose to share (Samara adds "as it should be"). So I refute any claim that this problem was in any way "necessary", as some people say, to make her more accessible. Those who needed that to make it so weren't looking deeply enough.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 mars 2011 - 03:56 .


#12230
Xilizhra

Xilizhra
  • Members
  • 30 873 messages
It wasn't necessary, but I don't think that it's terribly misplaced either. I also don't really mind this sort of genetic enhancement dying in infancy, because I'm against working on this sort of thing first; I believe that in the pursuit of transhumanism, altering the human mindset is much more important than the various enhancements Miranda had.
Also, most people don't dislike Miranda for being "confident..."

#12231
flexxdk

flexxdk
  • Members
  • 1 791 messages
What, a Miranda fan thread? Really???

...*glares at search box*

YOU. OVER HERE. NOW.

I always thought that there was no Miranda fan thread, because the Search function never rolled one out. I nearly thought I was one of the few who liked Miranda...

Anyway, when I clicked on one of the links that lead to the older fan threads (v2.0, specifically), my Google Chrome went all "WOOP WOOP WOOP!" on it, claiming it contained stuff from this site called "digitalgirls.co.uk" which apparently hosted malware...

...

Expecting dismissal of claim post in 5, 4, 3...

And it seems the discussion is about Miranda's infertility, right?

Modifié par Whacka, 03 mars 2011 - 04:22 .


#12232
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25 190 messages
Whacka, this thread has existed, through three incarnations, since immediately after ME2 came out. And yes, the search function on BSN is almost completely useless.

Anyway, welcome. I'm sorry to say there isn't much of a discussion anymore, since everything about Miranda has been talked to death and most fans have moved on, to DA2 now even if not earlier. Even so, you're welcome to post about Miranda. A few pages before, I have posted a list of interesting topics.

I would also recommend looking at our OP, there are many interesting links.

As for the infertility, there is a summary of facts and options in the Miranda Lawson FAQ. Opinions vary widely as usual.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 mars 2011 - 05:02 .


#12233
flexxdk

flexxdk
  • Members
  • 1 791 messages

Ieldra2 wrote...
Anyway, welcome. I'm sorry to say there isn't much of a discussion anymore, since everything about Miranda has been talked to death and most fans have moved on, to DA2 now even if not earlier.

Nothing new. Same goes for the Leliana thread (though it has gotten more livelier since the rumors of a cameo of her in DA2).

But anyways, we're not here to talk about DA and the likes. And I'm pretty sure that there'll be enough stuff to talk about once ME3 comes out.

Now, if only I had found this thread past year...

Browsed through the OP. There's indeed a lot of interesting stuff there. Too bad about the v2.0 thread though... Chrome doesn't let me go there.

Also, there's ALWAYS something to talk about, ALWAYS someone who's new who wants to express his or her opinion. Or some just go off-topic... for a bit.

#12234
NamiraWilhelm

NamiraWilhelm
  • Members
  • 3 728 messages
 This isnt finished because my attention span is crap, but i thought i'd post it here anyhoo

Posted Image

Modifié par NamiraWilhelm, 03 mars 2011 - 08:04 .


#12235
LuxDragon

LuxDragon
  • Members
  • 1 061 messages
It's freakin' nice. Hope to see the finished product soon.

#12236
Rusty Pabst

Rusty Pabst
  • Members
  • 419 messages
Another Miranda image:

Posted Image

http://masseffectscr...orites-part-10/ (Contains spoiler image from DLC mission Lair Of The Shadow Broker)

Modifié par Rusty Pabst, 05 mars 2011 - 01:49 .


#12237
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25 190 messages

Xilizhra wrote...
It wasn't necessary, but I don't think that it's terribly misplaced either. I also don't really mind this sort of genetic enhancement dying in infancy, because I'm against working on this sort of thing first; I believe that in the pursuit of transhumanism, altering the human mindset is much more important than the various enhancements Miranda had.
Also, most people don't dislike Miranda for being "confident..."


So, while...

(1) ...I would engineer people's bodies to live longer and give them better tools with which to understand and affect the universe,

(2) ...you would engineer their minds to conform more closely to your values.

I ask: how can anyone not see my vision as anything but desirable, and your vision as anything but totalitarian? I maintain that Miranda's genetic engineering represents a big step forward for humanity. Your vision, on the other hand, represents everything that can go wrong with the transhumanism project.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 mars 2011 - 08:55 .


#12238
LuxDragon

LuxDragon
  • Members
  • 1 061 messages
^ I agree.

#12239
DWH1982

DWH1982
  • Members
  • 2 619 messages

Ieldra2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
It wasn't necessary, but I don't think that it's terribly misplaced either. I also don't really mind this sort of genetic enhancement dying in infancy, because I'm against working on this sort of thing first; I believe that in the pursuit of transhumanism, altering the human mindset is much more important than the various enhancements Miranda had.
Also, most people don't dislike Miranda for being "confident..."


So, while...

(1) ...I would engineer people's bodies to live longer and give them better tools with which to understand and affect the universe,

(2) ...you would engineer their minds to conform more closely to your values.

I ask: how can anyone not see my vision as anything but desirable, and your vision as anything but totalitarian? I maintain that Miranda's genetic engineering represents a big step forward for humanity. Your vision, on the other hand, represents everything that can go wrong with the transhumanism project.


In all fairness, the original statement didn't say anything about forcably altering the human mindset.  It may be possible that Xilzhra meant that.  But it's also possible to change the human mindset through peaceful, long term efforts such as education and activism.

It seems to me that you'd actually need to find a way to change the human mindset if you wanted to engage in the kind of engineering we see with Miranda, anyway.  Isn't it just as possible for it to be a powerful and destructive weapon as it is a way for the human race to move forward?  If so, having a human race that (willingly, not forcably) sheds some of the ideas and habits of the past might be ideal.

#12240
MsSihaKatieKrios

MsSihaKatieKrios
  • Members
  • 415 messages
If you don't learn from your past, you will never be able to embrace the future.

#12241
Ty2011

Ty2011
  • Members
  • 488 messages

NamiraWilhelm wrote...

 This isnt finished because my attention span is crap, but i thought i'd post it here anyhoo

Posted Image

Looks lovely. Great job!

#12242
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25 190 messages

DWH1982 wrote...
It seems to me that you'd actually need to find a way to change the human mindset if you wanted to engage in the kind of engineering we see with Miranda, anyway.  Isn't it just as possible for it to be a powerful and destructive weapon as it is a way for the human race to move forward?  If so, having a human race that (willingly, not forcably) sheds some of the ideas and habits of the past might be ideal.

Destruction is sometimes a viable option. Engineering that capability out of the human species would be harmful. Power - in this case understood as the capability to understand and affect your environment - is always a two-edged sword. Either you have it, then you can do good or bad things with it, or you don't, then you cannot do either. Limiting what you can do with it would reduce adaptability - and thus, adversely affect survival.

Yes, I consider shedding some of the ideas and habits of the past as necessary for the future of the human species, in the ME universe and the real one. But trying to educate the human species to that effect does not exclude improving individual human capabilities by genetic engineering. The necessity of the former is not a valid criticism of the latter. In fact, improved cognitive traits - learning, memory and reasoning - might be conducive to that goal.

At this point I should mention that I consider the term "perfection" often used to describe what Miranda's father wanted to achieve as unfortunate. Perfection can't exist, physically and mentally, because there is no absolute measure of it, and it is by defintion meant to be absolute. The need for adaptability also means there must be a minimum of genetic diversity. Which means no single human - not even a pair or a hundred of them - can embody the future of the human species alone. Miranda may have greatly improved traits, but when I say that Miranda might represent - to use a well-known catchphrase - humanity's genetic destiny, then I mean she represents the ability of the human species to take its genetic destiny into its own hands and give the finger to the hand of fate.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 mars 2011 - 09:02 .


#12243
drwells123

drwells123
  • Members
  • 584 messages

Rusty Pabst wrote...

Another Miranda image:

Posted Image

http://masseffectscr...orites-part-10/ (Contains spoiler image from DLC mission Lair Of The Shadow Broker)


I love her nonchalance as that chair sails past her.

#12244
Xilizhra

Xilizhra
  • Members
  • 30 873 messages
You know... if the infertility issue gets cured in ME3, there really wouldn't have been a point in putting it in ME2 at all. And since we only know about it from a piece of fluff not even connected to a quest, I think that it being a major plot point is unlikely. Either she'll stay infertile for the whole series, or you can headcanon whatever you want; I suppose we'll have to wait and see.

#12245
naledgeborn

naledgeborn
  • Members
  • 3 964 messages
I don't see why infertility (in a video game by the way) would be enough to turn people off from her character. Also, if in vitro fertilization is possible in the 21st century I imagine that such techniques would be leaps and bounds ahead of what it is today in the ME timeline. I assume this character flaw is supposed to make her more accessible from a female perspective.
Grunt - "Never saw much point."

#12246
Prudii Aden

Prudii Aden
  • Members
  • 989 messages
Potentially because some people see it (for some reason) as a deal breaker. I don't grok it myself. What does whether or not your fictional Shepard is able to have kids with Miranda have to do with her character? Fertility issue or not, she's still the hottest thing to come out of computer games in ages, and the only character that has the requisite character to be able to form an equal partnership with Shepard.

#12247
Ty2011

Ty2011
  • Members
  • 488 messages

Prudii Aden wrote...

Potentially because some people see it (for some reason) as a deal breaker. I don't grok it myself. What does whether or not your fictional Shepard is able to have kids with Miranda have to do with her character? Fertility issue or not, she's still the hottest thing to come out of computer games in ages, and the only character that has the requisite character to be able to form an equal partnership with Shepard.

It's nothing that she chose either. It was forced upon her, even if it was accidental. It's insulting that anyone would think of it as a deal breaker because infitility is a real life condition that people do not choose. If you love someone you love them and don't care about any problems they might have. Especially things they cannot control. 

Besides, Shepard doesn't have time for kids.

#12248
drwells123

drwells123
  • Members
  • 584 messages

Prudii Aden wrote...

Potentially because some people see it (for some reason) as a deal breaker. I don't grok it myself. What does whether or not your fictional Shepard is able to have kids with Miranda have to do with her character? Fertility issue or not, she's still the hottest thing to come out of computer games in ages, and the only character that has the requisite character to be able to form an equal partnership with Shepard.


I don't even see why it's a deal breaker in real life. Plenty of kids out there needing a good home already anyway.

#12249
Ty2011

Ty2011
  • Members
  • 488 messages

drwells123 wrote...

I don't even see why it's a deal breaker in real life. Plenty of kids out there needing a good home already anyway.

Exactly.. there are plenty of kids that need adopting out there. And the world is over-populated anyway... I imagine more so in the future ME world. Plus many people make the decision to never have a child.

Modifié par Ty2011, 07 mars 2011 - 01:18 .


#12250
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25 190 messages
It is not a deal-breaker regarding the romance. None of my Shepards would ever leave her because of it. But I would hate Miranda's genetic legacy to be lost.