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[Nightwriter]

Some of us like to think Miranda has changed and some of us like to think she hasn't.

There are two sides to Miranda in the game. In the beginning when all we see is the cold side there is no hint of the softer side, nor any indication it even exists.

After her loyalty mission that softer side comes out, and there's really no way to know if it was always there and we're just seeing it for the first time or if it's a new development and her character is changing. It's quite nicely open to interpretation.

Regardless, I believe resigning from Cerberus is a decision neither her colder side nor her softer side nor both sides put together would have made at the beginning of the game.

[jtav]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Updated the Miranda Lawson FAQ. Added jtav's suggestion to the reasons for liking Miranda. See four posts above this for a complete quote of her post. jtav, I have rephrased your text for brevity. If you think something's missing, tell me.

It looks fine. I tend to ramble a bit.  And it seems we're back to agreeing with each other about half the time.

In a bit of perversity, I almost - almost, mind you - hope my opinion of her romance doesn't improve that much. Finding her just as compelling without Shepard is sort of the ultimate argument that she's just fanservice and a sex object. She's a fantastic character with plenty of development no matter what gender I play.

[Jebel Krong]

Nightwriter wrote...

Some of us like to think Miranda has changed and some of us like to think she hasn't.

There are two sides to Miranda in the game. In the beginning when all we see is the cold side there is no hint of the softer side, nor any indication it even exists.

After her loyalty mission that softer side comes out, and there's really no way to know if it was always there and we're just seeing it for the first time or if it's a new development and her character is changing. It's quite nicely open to interpretation.

Regardless, I believe resigning from Cerberus is a decision neither her colder side nor her softer side nor both sides put together would have made at the beginning of the game.

not really - she definitely warms up in-between the beginning and her loyalty mission. not a super-amount, but you get the beginnings of the depth there. of course it doesn't help then that her loyalty mission is so good, it makes it seem more of a disparity and change than it actually is.

[Ieldra]

Lord Zeuss wrote...
Well, I wanted to avoid using 'ice queen' anywhere in my statements, but it would seem this has backfired. Let me restate: At the beginning of the game, Miranda presents to you her cold, ice queen persona because that's what suits her situation at the time. But as the game progresses, allowing us to get a deeper look into her character, we are shown some of the cogs that grind beneath that veneer of coldness (love for Oriana, limits to her acceptance of Cerberus methods, contempt for her father's agenda, respect of Shepard).

If you'd said that from the start, I would've had nothing to disagree with

My miscommunicated point was that different facets of Miranda's character surface as the story goes on, which allowed me, personally, to form a better and deeper connection with her.

This, too.

Since I happen to consider morality a basic component of human intellect, my perception of its presence within Miranda's psyche played a significant role in the development of said connection.

Morality is mostly based on intuition, not reason. Human intellect has been used to temper our moral intuitions, to justify them, to universalize particular ones, and to resolve dilemmas at different times by different people. And everyone has moral intuitions, they only differ considerably between cultures and even individuals. It would be more correct to say that you, that every one of us, can make a stronger connection to Miranda the more you detect in her signs of a morality that agrees with your own intuitions. This, after all, is one of the fundamentals underlying cultural cohesion.
Miranda has a sense of duty to humanity as a whole. That, too, is a moral intuition. The problem is that community-oriented moral intuitions often clash with more individual-centered intuitions, which can lead to actions that are seen as ruthless by others. 

But perhaps it was pretentious of me to assume that others might have had the same experience as I. I will not cede my subjective experience as invalid, but I won't assume that anyone else might think the same as me. Like I said, different people can see different things in Miranda and still be correct.

To some degree, yes. But as I said, neither her ability to be ruthlessly efficient, nor her ability to express empathy and warmth to those she loves and trusts, should be completely denied.

and conventional morality be damned.

Walk away from this, please.

I wanted to express my dissatisfaction about the fact that morality is most often shown one-sided in fiction. Honor before reason - follow your empathy and it will all go well, regardless of whether that should be seen as really stupid, tactically disastrous or something similar. The underlying assumption that "doing bad things for whichever well-considered reason always ends badly" is a trope I very much dislike. I could on about this, but it would become a bit too off-topic.

Renegade is not evil, even
though some of Shepard's Renegade actions are.

This is why I liked ME1's morality meter system better than ME2's. ME2 pretty much railroads you into or the other, every act of decrepit Renegade cruelty going hand in hand with the more rational, practical Renegade actions. ME1 presented a continuum of choices, whereas ME2 really only gave you two options.

You can play a balanced Shepard. It does take some metagaming, but not as much as would make it all unrealistic. I'm in the process of writing up a guide.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 juin 2010 - 01:41 .

[jtav]

Sixth Goul wrote...

So, I leave you with a question, what is Miranda's attraction to Shepard and unlike with Jacob, does Shepard have a better chance of a successful relationship?

Assuming the opinion of someone who like Miranda/Jacob is valid...

The snarky part of me wants to say that MaleShep is basically Kirk and women seem to fall for him regardless of personality. More seriously, I think she finds competence hot, and Shepard is competemt beyond all reason. He's also decisive and forceful in a way Jacob isn't. She doesn't want to dominate or be dominated by her partner. I think what doomed Jacob is that he has no idea who he really is, or what he really wants. If he ever did, they might try again and be more successful.

As for a successful Miranda/Shepard relationship, it depends on the Shepard. He's such a blank slate and we're not given much to indicate how he'd function in a relationship. I'm almost certain the conclusion to her romance in game would be positive.

That said, my preference remains for her with Kaidan, Thane, or Liara. Which if the three is my favorite depends on my mood on any given day.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
The snarky part of me wants to say that MaleShep is basically Kirk and women seem to fall for him regardless of personality.

Yep. Shepard is personally mentioned in the list. Together with Garrus.

More seriously, I think she finds competence hot, and Shepard is competemt beyond all reason.

That's an aspect I had forgotten. Definitely true.

[Jebel Krong]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
The snarky part of me wants to say that MaleShep is basically Kirk and women seem to fall for him regardless of personality.

Yep. Shepard is personally mentioned in the list. Together with Garrus.

More seriously, I think she finds competence hot, and Shepard is competemt beyond all reason.

That's an aspect I had forgotten. Definitely true.

shep's combat record makes him a pretty much bloody perfect specimen as it is, i seem to recall.

[kraidy1117]

Jebel Krong wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
The snarky part of me wants to say that MaleShep is basically Kirk and women seem to fall for him regardless of personality.

Yep. Shepard is personally mentioned in the list. Together with Garrus.

More seriously, I think she finds competence hot, and Shepard is competemt beyond all reason.

That's an aspect I had forgotten. Definitely true.

shep's combat record makes him a pretty much bloody perfect specimen as it is, i seem to recall.

Well my Shepard is a war hero and the savior of the Citidel(sp)

[jtav]

That he is. The problem is that both of those apply to Jacob as well, if I'm reading the summary of Galaxy correctly. So there has to be something else that attracts her, but, by Shep's very nature as a player character, what those qualities are is left vague. I'm starting to warm up to Shep a bit (sniping an entire room full of enemies by yourself will do that), but I still identify with her and not him. So my question os always more "Is he the best possible match for her?" not "Is she the best possible match for him?"

[JonDoe297]

Jebel Krong wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

JonDoe297 wrote...

That's interesting. Makes a work of art from a screenshot. How did you do it?

cutout tool in photoshop, does it autmoatically.

Yeah, no skill required. Just open the screenshot in Photoshop. Click "filters" go to where it says 'cutout', or look through the other styles and photoshop does the rest. I do it to all my screenshots.

[philiposophy]

I have a discussion topic about Miranda that I haven't seen discussed yet (it may be short lived though):



How much of "Miranda Lawson" is her real name? She went into hiding from her father so I imagine she will have changed at least her surname, and perhaps even her first name. "Miranda" is Latin for "she who must be admired" so it could easily be what her father called her if he was into the whole perfect dynasty thing (or it could just end with the writers). Thoughts?

[jtav]

Well, Niket calls her "Miri" which indicates that Miranda is her given name. Lawson probably isn't, if only because using her given surname would be astonishingly bad tradecraft.

[Lord Zeuss]

Does anyone else think that Miranda's father may turn out to be the Shadow Broker? His name is never given, he is said to be a 'businessman', whatever that means, and is described as 'the richest man in the galaxy'. Also, we know that he is not on good terms with Cerberus--remember the Shadow Broker shopping for info on Cerberus in ME1? He gave Kohoku information gratis with the promise that he (Kohoku) would get him Cerberus files and such. We know the Shadow Broker will do this sort of thing when he is very angry at someone (Barla Vonn on the Citadel gives Shepard information about Tali for nada because the Shadow Broker was mad at Fist).

[Lord Ed1]

The Shadow Broker is definitely a possibility. We know he's got something of a big role to play yet, and he does fit the profile pretty well. But I wouldn't be so quick to say it's him. Bioware could do some cool things with both her father (should it not be the Shadow Broker) and the Shadow Broker himself, should he still be independent from any other storyline. Still, I think Bioware will fit him in really well, like someone we already know or something. Would be funny if it turned out to be Udina, huh..



In short, I really wouldn't say who exactly is the Shadow Broker or Miri's father. Possibilities are pretty numerous.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
That he is. The problem is that both of those apply to Jacob as well, if I'm reading the summary of Galaxy correctly. So there has to be something else that attracts her, but, by Shep's very nature as a player character, what those qualities are is left vague. I'm starting to warm up to Shep a bit (sniping an entire room full of enemies by yourself will do that), but I still identify with her and not him. So my question os always more "Is he the best possible match for her?" not "Is she the best possible match for him?"

I find myself rather surprised to feel the same way. I like the romance from Shepard's point of view, but I often feel as if my Shepard has to work to be worthy of her - and that almost requires a certain way of dealing with people, the right mix of, you guessed it, direct action and showing empathy. If I play Shepard another way, I just "know" she wouldn't connect to him enough for a romance.

It's almost as if I'm playing two people at times.

[JonDoe297]

Mukora wrote...

Just thought the Miranda fans would want to see this

Hmm, personality is only in second place. We have to get it to number one! Stop those damn kids from objectifying Miri.

[Ieldra]

As for this irritatingly persistent theory that Miranda's father is the Shadow Broker: there is absolutely NO evidence for that, damn it. Not a shred. Not a single word ANYWHERE in the game, the books or in any other item describing the ME universe hints that this could be even a remote possibility.

In fact, there are a few things that make this rather unlikely:
(1) Miranda's father is a pro-human billionaire from Earth. He has donated to Cerberus in the past. If he were the Shadow Broker, there would have been some motivation for him to sell Shepard's corpse to the Collectors. That makes no sense. He may have had a falling out with Cerberus, but almost certainly he is still pro-human.
(2) How would someone like Miranda's father, who she describes as a wealthy businessman, which means he is most like still openly active as a businessman on Earth, come to assume the position of the Shadow Broker, a position that non-humans seem to have known for quite some time?

From my point of view, that the SB and Miranda's father are identical is rather implausible. People only say this because they dislike plot elements that aren't strongly connected anywhere. The SB is a mystery. So is Miranda's father. That's about the only thing they have in common.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 juin 2010 - 06:18 .

[jtav]

Ieldra, have you thought about adding "Is the Shadow Broker Miranda's father?" to the FAQ? It does come up an awful lot.



And I know what you mean about Shepard needing to be worthy of her. My preference are for cocky but extremely idealistic Paragon Sheps who are going to do the right thing or die trying. Space paladins. I think she'd find them a little naive and not really to her taste. I'm trying to create a more suitable Shep, but it's tough getting out if that mindset, because it's years older than my fascination with Miranda.

[Ieldra]

Yes, I'll add the Shadow Broker question to the FAQ. But not today... I'll be off soon.

[jtav]

*is suddenly motivated to play a marathon ME session so she can return to Miranda faster*

[jtav]

I must say good night myself. Decided I'm either going to make progress on the fanfic or delete it. So have fun in my absence.

[Errol Dnamyx]

Mukora wrote...

Just thought the Miranda fans would want to see this

It´s the complete package that made it for me. Looks + personality + VA.

[Lord Zeuss]

Ieldra2 wrote...

As for this irritatingly persistent theory that Miranda's father is the Shadow Broker: there is absolutely NO evidence for that, damn it. Not a shred. Not a single word ANYWHERE in the game, the books or in any other item describing the ME universe hints that this could be even a remote possibility.

In fact, there are a few things that make this rather unlikely:
(1) Miranda's father is a pro-human billionaire from Earth. He has donated to Cerberus in the past. If he were the Shadow Broker, there would have been some motivation for him to sell Shepard's corpse to the Collectors. That makes no sense. He may have had a falling out with Cerberus, but almost certainly he is still pro-human.
(2) How would someone like Miranda's father, who she describes as a wealthy businessman, which means he is most like still openly active as a businessman on Earth, come to assume the position of the Shadow Broker, a position that non-humans seem to have known for quite some time?

From my point of view, that the SB and Miranda's father are identical is rather implausible. People only say this because they dislike plot elements that aren't strongly connected anywhere. The SB is a mystery. So is Miranda's father. That's about the only thing they have in common.

Wow, twice in one day, I'm running out of fresh wrists to be strapped.

Besides, I'm not really seeing a lot of counter-point evidence that is any more substantial than my *speculation* was in the first place. This all looks like conjecture to me except for the point about the role of the Shadow Broker seeming to have existed for an awful long time. Now if I'm wrong, and there's loads of encyclopedic information somewhere that will make this perfectly clear, say something.

It's a moot point anyway. I guess nothing will make the Shadow Broker of any interest to me.<_<

[Habelo]

You guys should srsly get some phycological help. Something is WAY wrong, reading this thread makes me ****ing afraid to go to bed at night.