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Miranda Lawson - our favorite woman in the galaxy (III)


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#12701
MisterJB

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enayasoul wrote...

I'm hoping Miranda doesn't take the reigns of Cerberus.  She's better and smarter than them.  She doesn't need Cerberus to do it. Tim will get what's coming to him. 

Why are the two mutually exclusive? I fully intend to kill/arrest TIM but there's no point in wasting all that he has created.
Miranda is too good for Cerberus but using it's resources as a starting point for her own organization is a lot better than to create one from scratch

Modifié par MisterJB, 18 avril 2011 - 01:40 .


#12702
enayasoul

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MisterJB wrote...

enayasoul wrote...

I'm hoping Miranda doesn't take the reigns of Cerberus.  She's better and smarter than them.  She doesn't need Cerberus to do it. Tim will get what's coming to him. 

Why are the two mutually exclusive? I fully intend to kill/arrest TIM but there's no point in wasting all that he has created.
Miranda is too good for Cerberus but using it's resources as a starting point for her own organization is a lot better than to create one from scratch


That's an interesting point.  :?  Rob TIM blind and use her own network of contacts would work... :happy:

#12703
Space Sweeper

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Essentially the Shadow Broker 2.0.

#12704
ExtremeOne

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I want Miranda in Mass Effect 3 and on My Ship.

#12705
enayasoul

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Do you think Miranda really hates her father? Do you think if she had the opportunity to kill him, would she?

I get the feeling Miranda's father is an ass. He never really loved her at all... In her loyalty mission she said she didn't feel like a daughter to him, and that she didn't know what she was to him... :( Thoughts?

#12706
Space Sweeper

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ExtremeOne wrote...

I want Miranda in Mass Effect 3 and on My Ship.

Hell, I want her as my XO in Mass Effect 3.

#12707
ExtremeOne

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Space Sweeper wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

I want Miranda in Mass Effect 3 and on My Ship.

Hell, I want her as my XO in Mass Effect 3.

  

I want that as well 

#12708
Lymle Lemuri

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@enayasoul:

Miranda was lucky she even got a father. I thought her blown out of proportion anti daddy complex didn't do her justice. Miranda could have been more likeable if she was more understanding and relatable. I wish she  was humble in the fact that there are less fortunate people out there.

Talking to her and romancing her, I saw this shell of a person that was still in the mindset of a 15 year old. She still had father problems well in the past. She had 18+ years to get over it. Its not like he molested her. Its not like he beat her to a bloody pulp. He wanted to make her perfect. yes for all the wrong reasons, but I don't see the problem in trying to perfect something. She didn't want it so thus she ran away.

I believe she blames her father far too much. Like Shepard can say, its not her biotics that make her a person its who she is. I think her perception on how she handled growing up has made her an egotist.

Plus we only have her word on the situation.

Modifié par Lymle Lemuri, 18 avril 2011 - 06:12 .


#12709
Ieldra

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Lymle Lemuri wrote...
Miranda was lucky she even got a father. I thought her blown out of proportion anti daddy complex didn't do her justice. Miranda could have been more likeable if she was more understanding and relatable. I wish she  was humble in the fact that there are less fortunate people out there.

Talking to her and romancing her, I saw this shell of a person that was still in the mindset of a 15 year old. She still had father problems well in the past. She had 18+ years to get over it. Its not like he molested her. Its not like he beat her to a bloody pulp. He wanted to make her perfect. yes for all the wrong reasons, but I don't see the problem in trying to perfect something. She didn't want it so thus she ran away.

I believe she blames her father far too much. Like Shepard can say, its not her biotics that make her a person its who she is. I think her perception on how she handled growing up has made her an egotist.

Plus we only have her word on the situation.

We are never told which methods her father used to make her perfect. I have explored a more drastic scenario in the first chapters of my fanfic "Promethean Legacy (still unfinished, grr.). Instead of claiming Miranda is overreacting, try to image a scenario where she wasn't. Consider that her father is the kind of man who hires mercenaries to kidnap his own (grown-up) daughter instead of making contact with her and her new family. Also note that this problem never affects Miranda's competence as an operative, nor does it prevent her from making an emotional connection with Shepard. Miranda considers her childhood so bad that she wants to save her sister from its like, but she's not angsty about it, she does something about it. Emotionally, this problem is in the past except when her father makes it appear in the present. If anything, it is we who make too much of it, not she.

Her true problem is only accidentally connected to her father: because she knows she was engineered to have improved traits, she feels that none of her accomplishments are truly her own. This is exacerbated by an emotionally distant father who never made any effort to show her it is not so, but at the core it is a problem inherent in the way she was made. She's a new kind of human being, the first of her kind. It seems plausible to me that she needs to come to terms with this, and plausible as well that her existence as a covert operative isn't exactly conducive to doing so.

I think people make too much of the role of her father because they want to make this personal. They want someone to blame. But it is not. It is not a "daddy issue". It is an existential problem Miranda has difficulties to deal with because she's the first human to have it. Her father just makes that task harder.

So no, I do not want Miranda to deal with her father. I want her to come to terms with her origins and see that the fact she's been engineered to have improved traits does not devalue her accomplishments. I want her to see that she need not feel as anyone's tool. Not TIM's, not her father's......and not Shepard's.

BTW:
Citing that "some people have had it worse" is a time-proven way to trivialize someone's problems.  As for humility, I hate it if people carry it around as the sign of the morally superior. Easy, after all, to be humble if you don't have the power to affect anything, no? Most of the time it's an excuse presented as a virtue. As for Miranda, note that she exactly does *not* take pride in her gifts while acknowledging that she has them. And lastly, a "likeable and understanding" Miranda is the last I would want. She's good as she is, somewhat detached and aloof. It's what make her interesting. Turning her into the embodiment of social conscience would totally ruin her character.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 avril 2011 - 08:28 .


#12710
Lymle Lemuri

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@Ieldra2:

Miranda was wrong in the fact in taking her sister away was for the better. Yes she may have had some difficulties, but her thoughts and memories are that of a child, emotions of a child. She may be developed as a Biotic, but because of that she lacks in the full functionality and contemplations of an adult. When Miranda stole her sister she was barely old enough to be deemed worthy of making her own decisions for her own person.

I think its quite the opposite, because she is "perfect" she sees herself as superior and constantly reminds you of it. She isn't the only product of biotics.She was engineered to be better than everyone else, but being human automatically negates any means of perfection.

Miranda is by no means a bad person, she was just not brought up the way she should have been. She would have a lot more good characteristics if she was more trusting and tried not to everything because she feels shes the only one who can do it right.

In ME3 I just really hope she gets an attitude upgrade. Then I think she will have great potential :3

#12711
Arijharn

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I do wonder a lot about her father though. He hired a merc group to 'rescue' Oriana, but I wonder if that was for Oriana's benefit or for Miranda's? I mean, why hire a merc group at all when apparently Niket went to them after Miranda finally spilled the beans about the extent of her actions. Who passed information (via Lanteia?) that Mr. X is moving to reacquire Oriana?

Was Eclipse there just as a subtle demonstration to Miranda? By saying: "Now are you starting to realize just how long my arms can stretch?" If he really is the richest man in the galaxy, then I think it's only a matter of time. I get the impression that Miranda hasn't actually 'won' this battle yet, rather that her father and her are merely setting up the chess board.

For all of Miranda's intelligence, I think she suffers from an extensive case of hubris more than anything else. Which is kinda crazy in a way since I still think she's the perfect (ha harr. Pun's make me cleverer!) match for Shephard.

#12712
Lymle Lemuri

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I thought Miranda's Father was kept out of the loop? Didnt Niket say he was the only one who knew about it?

#12713
Arijharn

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He didn't know exactly where she was going (which doesn't make much sense now that I think about it, since Niket was apparently in cohorts with him the entire time), but he knew enough to get the Eclipse involved.

#12714
Ieldra

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Lymle Lemuri wrote...
Miranda was wrong in the fact in taking her sister away was for the better. Yes she may have had some difficulties, but her thoughts and memories are that of a child, emotions of a child. She may be developed as a Biotic, but because of that she lacks in the full functionality and contemplations of an adult. When Miranda stole her sister she was barely old enough to be deemed worthy of making her own decisions for her own person.

She was wrong? How can you say that, not knowing what happened in her childhood? I do not dismiss the possibility that her memories may paint the picture worse than it actually was, but we do not know. Also, your claims of immaturity are based on nothing but her age. I find it plausible that her enhancements may have made her see more clearly than others. Again we do not know. Your judgment of her character is supported by zero evidence.   

I think its quite the opposite, because she is "perfect" she sees herself as superior and constantly reminds you of it. She isn't the only product of biotics.She was engineered to be better than everyone else, but being human automatically negates any means of perfection.

Didn't you hear her saying "the only things I can take credit for are my mistakes"? Doesn't sound like she thinks herself superior to others. As for "perfection", it was unfortunate that the writers used that term, since there is no absolute measure of perfection, and so there is no perfection and Miranda is not perfect. As for "being" human, I highly resent that claim that imperfection makes us human. That we cannot be perfect is both a curse and a blessing - a blessing because were we perfect, there would be nothing to strive for and our lives would cease to have meaning, a curse because being not perfect is an *undesirable* state of things which we have to accept. Just like death, being imperfect is a lack, and as being mortal, should not be trumpeted out as some kind of virtue.

Miranda is by no means a bad person, she was just not brought up the way she should have been. She would have a lot more good characteristics if she was more trusting and tried not to everything because she feels shes the only one who can do it right.

Apparently you'd like Miranda better if she was an incarnation of conventional "goodness". OMG, would that be a boring character. Miranda is not bad, she is not good, she's just....Miranda. With her own personality traits mostly disliked by you and mostly liked by me. I would like to see her more at peace with herself, but everything else I'm quite happy with. The traits you dislike are those that attracted most of her fans.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 avril 2011 - 09:07 .


#12715
jtav

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I disagree with Ieldra and Lyle. We are given ample evidence (his attempt to take Oriana by force, "first one he kept") to believe that Mr. Lawson is a thoroughly nasty piece of work. Miranda also exhibits certain traits found in children who were psychologically abused. We are also given no evidence to believe that she was lying. At the same time, I do believe that her father is to blame. Her existential crisis is a product of her upbringing. I really cannot see Oriana having the same kind of problems taking credit for her accomplishments that Miranda does once she's made aware of her heritage. Again, I have always maintained that Miranda was abused psychologically by her father and that her low self-esteem is a product of that. She needs to deal with her father, but it's not the sort of thing that can be solved by killing a few dozen mercs and a Charm check.

#12716
Ieldra

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I admit I sounded a bit contradictory in my first reply to Lyle. Let me clarify:

Yes, Mr.X is a nasty piece of work. Yes, Miranda's upbringing has caused most of her problem. But what exactly? Was it psychological abuse? Was it the knowledge she was made for a purpose dangled daily in front of her nose? Was it the pressure to always have to perform at 100%? Was it being denied love? Was is something more sinister? We do not know.

The comparison with Oriana is misleading. Possibly she wouldn't have a problem coming to terms with her origins were she told now. But what if she had been told as a child? Wasn't this the foundation on which Miranda's life had been built by her father? IMO Miranda would have been more resilient in the face of her upbringing if not for the fact she had been created for a purpose - and knew it. She had no way to say "at least this is mine alone".

So yes, I think the psychological effects of the knowledge of her origins lie at the core of her self-esteem problem. Everything else is just piled up on top of it. It is likely that her father used that to control her. But I do not believe that confronting him will make it all go away. She has to confront the deeper issue.

#12717
jtav

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Oh no. Confronting dad won't help, But she needs to make some kind of peace with her past and start seeing herself as a person instead of a tool, which is what I think you're saying. I do blame her father for her problems, though.

#12718
AnimaTempli101

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Two things:

1. Hi, this is my official de-lurking phase.

2. Am I the only one who saw something more sinister in the words "He wanted a dynasty." ?

#12719
enayasoul

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AnimaTempli101 wrote...

Two things:

1. Hi, this is my official de-lurking phase.

2. Am I the only one who saw something more sinister in the words "He wanted a dynasty." ?


I think we all have in some form or another.  It's really hard to say what he really intended for her to be.:(

#12720
AnimaTempli101

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I have an idea in my head and it ain't pretty. Like seriously, Zaeed level of not prettiness.

#12721
jtav

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Incest? The thought has occurred to me, and it won't leave.

#12722
enayasoul

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what if oriana is really miranda's daughter?

#12723
AnimaTempli101

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@jtav Bingo.

@enayasoul Not that far.

#12724
Mr Plow

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jtav wrote...

Incest? The thought has occurred to me, and it won't leave.



well we all get our jollies somehow   Posted Image


Oh right I see what you mean 


I know we don't know yet but I'm resigned to Miranda at best being available for only a portion of the game.  I will be pleasantly surprised if she is back in a big way

#12725
jtav

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I can definitely see Mr. Lawson wanting to be a Lazarus Long. Guy had two twin daughters, fathered children by them (consensual), but because their genes were perfect, the risk of defect was nil.