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[GuitarShredUK]

jtav wrote...

Incest? The thought has occurred to me, and it won't leave.

 Wow...first Shepard finds out through the SB that Miri's potentially infertile, and this - well put simply if we do meet Mr Lawson in ME3 I won't hesitate in pulling a gun on him and I doubt Miri will hesitate either, not just because of jtav's thought above but if Mr Lawson becomes a key player in recruiting Miri and/or her own storyline.  

Now, this isn't to say that this ugly scenario/twist will happen in ME3, frankly I really hope it doesn't or that BW handle this very well otherwise **cough**Fox News**cough**. 

Modifié par GuitarShredUK, 18 avril 2011 - 05:37 .

[Ieldra]

ProffesionallNoob wrote...
Hello everyone! I'm new to this thread, and i am here not to troll, nor to show my support to Miri fans although I'm not one, I am simply here because I AM A MIRI FAN. Now, i have a question: on page 501, you are talking about an article that said Garrus, Liara and Ashley/Kaidan are coming back as squadmembers. Can someone plz post a link to that article?

It is in GameInformer, a print mag, and we aren't allowed to link to scans here. The article said that Garrus, Liara and Ashley/Kaidan are "playable to some extent". We suspect that most of the characters are playable for at least one mission, but hope, of course, that our favorite will have a bigger role, which is not out of the question. 

If you want to check the facts, head over to the General Discussion thread and check the stickied threads.

Anyway, welcome. Feel free to share any thoughts about Miranda.

[Ieldra]

GuitarShredUK wrote...

jtav wrote...
Incest? The thought has occurred to me, and it won't leave.

 Wow...first Shepard finds out through the SB that Miri's potentially infertile, and this - well put simply if we do meet Mr Lawson in ME3 I won't hesitate in pulling a gun on him and I doubt Miri will hesitate either, not just because of jtav's thought above but if Mr Lawson becomes a key player in recruiting Miri and/or her own storyline.  

Now, this isn't to say that this ugly scenario/twist will happen in ME3, frankly I really hope it doesn't or that BW handle this very well otherwise **cough**Fox News**cough**. 

Well....let's just say that in an age of genetic engineering and highly developed reproductive technology incest simply doesn't carry the same ick factor any more. It all depends on exactly how it's done. As for the infertility, I think it is not genetic, but a side effect of the operations that gave her her biotics. So her father is responsible, but it was not intentional. 

[Lymle Lemuri]

@Ieldra2: Holy crap I come back from work to see this amazing WALLO'TEXT. XD

Don't get me wrong. Its a lot easier to talk about a person if you dislike them. The opposite of Love is not hate. So in a way I actually love Miranda.... why do i feel so unclean suddenly?

I'll stick steadfast to the fact that her taking her sister was more due to the fact that she could get back at her father. She was taking away something her dad worked at. She may have had some good intentions, but ultimately at that age, teenagers just want revenge. And she had reason for wanting it. Its just like Jack in a way, except with a father rather than a facility.

That's also another thing that bugged me about her personality. During her confrontation with Jack. Miranda, being the "wise" one should have stepped down. She knew Jack was mentally unstable and should been the better person even before Shepard had to interfere. Getting Jack riled up was not going to accomplish anything. I had the paragon points to fix the situation on both ends but I checked out both ends of denying Jack or Miranda. And to be frank, Miranda's "Why dont you go talk to your new friend Jack." is just infuriating. Really Miranda? Your acting like a child again? If I recall Miranda NEVER even wanted to be my friend. She put me back together and wanted us to remain civil till the mission was over.

Now that I think more on it... I may actually like having Miranda around in ME3. I mean there's always got to be someone who you dislike? Make an even balance?

[MisterJB]

Lymle Lemuri wrote...

I'll stick steadfast to the fact that her taking her sister was more due to the fact that she could get back at her father. She was taking away something her dad worked at. She may have had some good intentions, but ultimately at that age, teenagers just want revenge. 

We have no idea how Miranda was like in her teenage years. However, I think it's logical to assume that Mr.Lawson's treatment forced Miranda to grow too fast and she was already incredibly mature at an young age. Otherwise, she would never have managed to escape the richest man in the Galaxy and join one of the most powerful criminal organizations that ever existed. And let's not forget the fact that she joined a pro-human group, again, another sign of maturity.
So, since Miranda herself said that her intention was to save Oriana from her father, I'm just going to go ahead and says that your dislike of Miranda is blinding you to the facts here.

Lymle Lemuri wrote...
And to be frank, Miranda's "Why dont you go talk to your new friend Jack." is just infuriating. Really Miranda? Your acting like a child again? If I recall Miranda NEVER even wanted to be my friend. She put me back together and wanted us to remain civil till the mission was over.

Now that I think more on it... I may actually like having Miranda around in ME3. I mean there's always got to be someone who you dislike? Make an even balance?

First of all, "again"? Mind explaining that?

After her loyalty mission, Miranda's feelings towards Shepard change. She starts to respect him as a person (instead of just respecting his accomplishments) and I daresay  she tougth of him as a friend, even if not romanced.
And then, by siding with Jack, that makes two of her friends stabbing her in the back.
Try to look at it from her point of view. Jack burst in her office, accuses her of something she did not do, threatens her life and start throwying chairs around and then, Shepard, someone she respects and trusts, sides with Jack against her.
Is it really such a wonder Miranda gets very upset?

Besides, those are game mechanics. Legion is not supossed to have feelings but you will still loose his loyalty if you side with Tali.

Modifié par MisterJB, 18 avril 2011 - 08:44 .

[Ieldra]

Lymle Lemuri wrote...
Don't get me wrong. Its a lot easier to talk about a person if you dislike them. The opposite of Love is not hate. So in a way I actually love Miranda.... why do i feel so unclean suddenly?

I'll stick steadfast to the fact that her taking her sister was more due to the fact that she could get back at her father. She was taking away something her dad worked at. She may have had some good intentions, but ultimately at that age, teenagers just want revenge. And she had reason for wanting it. Its just like Jack in a way, except with a father rather than a facility.

Again you're making sweeping assumptions about "how teenagers are". Let me tell you, when I was 16 I was *very* protective of my younger sister. It's quite possible that getting back at her father gave Miranda an added boost of satisfaction, but saying it was the primary motivation and that Oriana didn't matter, that's demaning her for no reason and with no evidence.

That's also another thing that bugged me about her personality. During her confrontation with Jack. Miranda, being the "wise" one should have stepped down. She knew Jack was mentally unstable and should been the better person even before Shepard had to interfere. Getting Jack riled up was not going to accomplish anything. I had the paragon points to fix the situation on both ends but I checked out both ends of denying Jack or Miranda. And to be frank, Miranda's "Why dont you go talk to your new friend Jack." is just infuriating. Really Miranda? Your acting like a child again? If I recall Miranda NEVER even wanted to be my friend. She put me back together and wanted us to remain civil till the mission was over.

Jack stormed in and demanded something like an apology in the name of Cerberus, which Miranda might have given had she been approached in a less confrontative manner. She was attacked and defended herself. I agree she should have acted with more restraint, but only because I hold her to higher standards than Jack. She should not have stepped down.

Her reaction after you side with Jack is completely understandable. It is like throwing the trust she placed in you back into her face. She puts things back to the professional level and keeps it at that for the rest of the mission. That's absolutely appropriate. No, Miranda doesn't express a wish to be your friend. That's not her way. But she is ready to place her trust in you after her loyalty mission, which amounts to the same. That is very rare for her, and it is also why it is so painful for her if you throw that trust back into her face.

[Lymle Lemuri]

@MisterJB:

Even besides the fact of her emotion, it is still wrong to steal a child, an infant at that. Like Niket said, it was Oriana's choice to make. Now if Oriana grew up and couldnt escape then I can see Miranda helping her being justified, but as it stands Oriana never got the choice Miranda did. Miranda made it for her. They are two different people, they have different emotions, fears, loves and hates. I see this as too big a decision just to go on a teenagers assumption. it may also be justified if her father's methods were torturous, but they weren't. Miranda got everything she wanted, except the one thing she wanted most, which was her father's love. You cant have everything you desire in life. This is why I see Miranda making childish decisions. I'm not blinded by anything in her context, i just see her in a different light, granted a not so tasteful one. I never intended to argue here. Maybe a casual debate on her morals, but I don't want to cause an outright war where I end up defending my own morals instead of Miranda's.

At the beginning when you try talking to her she blows you off. Great first impression. She also states the in bringing you back she wanted to implant a microchip to control you. That just greatly furthers the fact that she likes to control things that may be out of her means to control by words or her own actions. Yes I know she states later how she grows fonder of you. But I still even founder her fondness to be snotty.

This is again, just all my opinion. I do not intend to stoke the fires of hate. And i will shut up if requested. This is after all a Miranda appreciation forum.

[jtav]

It's a discussion forum. And I'd like to draw your attention to one line. "I wasn't the first he made, only the first he kept." It's possible she was lying, but we're not given any reason to think so, and we generally have to trust our exposition. If Miranda was lying, she's a sociopath I'll gleefully kill. If her characterization of her life is accurate, she was getting her sister away fro, a very bad situation.

[Lymle Lemuri]

@Ieldra2:

Gah: too much. too much:

I'm only stating that at 16 you SHOULDN'T make Life changing decisions for other people. Its one thing to be protective and too look out for a sibling, you love them you want them safe. But I would never make a choice for my brother like that. Its his own path to carve. Miranda had the intel to know what was going on with her sister, she would constantly keep tabs on her father, at least with her father she would know she was safe to most magnitude.

If Miranda trusted me so much and held me at such high regard she should know better that my decision was for the better and should have accepted it. She has never taken something so personal until that point.

This is the tl:dr version of what I meant to type.

[Lymle Lemuri]

@jtav: Why would he throw something away that he could just genetically modify later? I don't think it was handled like the Warlord Okeer with his Krogan. I want more proof on his heartlessness.

This is the memories of a child. Just like Jack they were muddled by a lot of emotion. She didn't say what he did with them.

[MisterJB]

Lymle Lemuri wrote...

@MisterJB:

Even besides the fact of her emotion, it is still wrong to steal a child, an infant at that. Like Niket said, it was Oriana's choice to make. Now if Oriana grew up and couldnt escape then I can see Miranda helping her being justified, but as it stands Oriana never got the choice Miranda did. Miranda made it for her. They are two different people, they have different emotions, fears, loves and hates. 

They are two different persons with different emotions exactly because of what Miranda did. Otherwise, Oriana is pretty much a clone of Miranda.
You say that Miranda stole the choice from Oriana. However, Mr.Lawson would not have given her a choice and if Miranda waited a few years, there was a good chance Oriana would be like Miranda, emotionally detached, low self esteem, the whole package. This the last thing Miranda wants, she wants Oriana to be happy, to live a normal life.
Oriana was given to a good family, she is happy. I say Miranda's action was the rigth thing to do.

it may also be justified if her father's methods were torturous, but they weren't. Miranda got everything she wanted, except the one thing she wanted most, which was her father's love. You cant have everything you desire in life. This is why I see Miranda making childish decisions. I'm not blinded by anything in her context, i just see her in a different light, granted a not so tasteful one. I never intended to argue here.

 We do know what Mr.Lawson's methods were, we have absolutely no idea what Miranda went through, she didn't elaborate. As far as we know, they could have exposed her to element zero to develop biotics while she was completely conscious. And who knows what she had to do to actually develop her biotics to a level that satisfied her father.
What we know is that her father isolated her, prohibited her from having friends and pushed her to meet impossible demands . That could already be considered torture.
And we don't even know what it was that pushed her to run away from her father. There is a lot of blank spaces when it comes to Miranda's past so I think it's wrong to make assumptions like "she was being childish when she ran away"

At the beginning when you try talking to her she blows you off. Great first impression.

 Miranda is dettached, she does not look for friends and has an hard time trusting people. And let's not forget that she had a certain measure of jealousy towards Shepard.
It's part of her character, you can like it or dislike.
For example, I prefer actually having to work to gain her trust and learn about Miranda than meeting Tali (I mean no offence, I'm just giving an example) and in the next conversation she becomes a walking codex on Quarian life.

She also states the in bringing you back she wanted to implant a microchip to control you. That just greatly furthers the fact that she likes to control things that may be out of her means to control by words or her own actions.

We need to look at the scale here. Cerberus put almost all of it's money into Shepard, someone who potentially
destroyed several of their bases. Miranda does not share TIM's faith in Shepard and she realizes that too much depends Shepard's actions and success. The future of Cerberus and Humanity, she does not like to leave things to chance.
So, it's less about Miranda having to control everything and more about the scale of the entire operation. Normally, I don't think she would have suggested the control chip.

But I still even founder her fondness to be snotty.

Could you elaborate so that I migth properly refute it?

Modifié par MisterJB, 19 avril 2011 - 12:54 .

[AnimaTempli101]

I think that unless we have an actual, detailed account of what happened under Mr Lawson's roof, we can't really pass judgement. If the worse case scenario and he wanted his 'offspring' to create a dynasty via 'incest' then you're a very strange peron to think she's wrong for getting Oriana out of there, I'd sure as hell do it. However if the reverse is true then yes, it could be argued that she was wrong.

It appears there's one shade of White in this argument, but only shades or grey thereafter.

[enayasoul]

You bring up some pretty interesting viewpoints lymle... and misterjb... makes me think. Thanks. :happy:

Modifié par enayasoul, 18 avril 2011 - 09:22 .

[MisterJB]

Lymle Lemuri wrote...
If Miranda trusted me so much and held me at such high regard she should know better that my decision was for the better and should have accepted it. She has never taken something so personal until that point.

Because Shepard became personal at that point, you have to remember that.
Besides, you can explain your decision to Miranda (Jack is mentally unstable, I can actually reason with you) and she'll acept it.

Lymle Lemuri wrote...
I want more proof on his heartlessness.
 

Sending mercenaries to kidnap Oriana is not proof enough? Miranda says he got rids of his previous daugthers, you can either believe in her or you don't
Frankly, I always tought that was a stupid move. How about, you know, try to talk to Oriana, manipulate her, turn her against Miranda.
Instead, send in the mercs.

Modifié par MisterJB, 18 avril 2011 - 09:35 .

[jtav]

We're given reason to disbelieve Jack on her LM.  Miranda's past is not called unto question, and the scant evidence we have supports her. Niket more or less admits he's doing it for money.

Question from a writer: how do you think Miranda is likely to express grief? I'm leaning towards anger, with little to no crying.

Modifié par jtav, 18 avril 2011 - 10:01 .

[Made Nightwing]

I would use the example of Sisyphus, the man who angered the ancient Greek gods. They sentenced him to roll a heavy boulder up the side of a mountain for all eternity. Just when he reaches the top, the boulder rolls all the way back down to the bottom.

This is the torture, that I consider Miranda to have endured. To struggle complete one goal after another, just a child, and then achieve that goal, only to face another. If I was trapped in a life like that, no matter what the creature comforts, I would do anything to escape it. And if any of my siblings were fated to take my place after my escape, then I would take them along with me.

BTW: Not speaking from personal experience, my Dad's a great guy who has always encouraged me to follow my own goals. This is hypotheticals we're talking about.

I agree that my siblings have the right to choose their own path for themselves. But if they're incapable of making that descision yet? Back when they were babies? I could not, in good conscience, leave them to face the same life I wanted out of.

When she says, the first one he kept, I take that at face value. He eliminated all her 'older' sisters, because they didn't measure up to his standards. I'd take the best of a bunch of bad options, and get my siblings out.

[Batlass8]

Lymle Lemuri wrote...

I'm only stating that at 16 you SHOULDN'T make Life changing decisions for other people. Its one thing to be protective and too look out for a sibling, you love them you want them safe. But I would never make a choice for my brother like that. Its his own path to carve. Miranda had the intel to know what was going on with her sister, she would constantly keep tabs on her father, at least with her father she would know she was safe to most magnitude.

*delurks*  I've bolded the bit I found most interesting.

A lot of people assume that a household where a child isn't being physically beaten or sexually abused isn't an abusive household.  This is absolutely not true.  I think it's safe to say that Miranda's father was (at the least, given what we know), emotionally abusive.  With her intelligence, Miranda would be acutely aware that the household she was growing up in wasn't normal.  In two-parent homes where one parent is abusive, the other parent often will direct the abusers anger/attention towards themselves in order to protect the children.  Miranda had no protector.  Instead, she was forced into the role of protector when she found out about Oriana.  To be honest, I would think less of Miranda if she had left Oriana behind to bear the brunt of their father's abuse. 

I've got three younger siblings, and one thing's for certain, anyone who wants to hurt them has to go through me.  (Maybe not my brother anymore, he's bigger than us three girls put together, but still).  I think Miranda was acting more in line with your first point, and protecting Oriana, rather than letting her emotions get the better of her and taking a decision away from Oriana. 

Anyway, my point was, if you believe that Miranda's father was probably abusive on some level, then Miranda's actions don't just make sense, they're admirable.  Fun debate though.

*re-lurks*

[Andaius20]

[jtav]

Agreed, Batlass. Miranda did everything she could to protect Oriana. I find her obvious love and willingness to sacrifice for her sister to be her most admirable trait.

[Arijharn]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Well....let's just say that in an age of genetic engineering and highly developed reproductive technology incest simply doesn't carry the same ick factor any more. It all depends on exactly how it's done. As for the infertility, I think it is not genetic, but a side effect of the operations that gave her her biotics. So her father is responsible, but it was not intentional. 

o.0 I disagree. One of the reasons why Incest has the ick factor is because of it's social taboo, and it's a social taboo that I think will last for a long time (including the era of Mass Effect).

When Miranda mentions 'dynasty' to me, it makes me think more along the lines that Miranda wouldn't be able to live for herself by herself, that she'll perennially be under her fathers shadow, and if Mr. Lawson wants to marry her off to secure familial alliances, then Miranda will obey. As Miranda was engineered for physical beauty, it makes me think this is more than likely given that Mr. Lawson would want to expand his own holdings and perhaps even branch out into politics if that was to be Miranda's 'mark.' Mr. Lawson imay probably dare to think along the lines of: "If I find her attractive, others will as well."

[aeetos21]

Wow, attacking Miranda in her love thread - must be Monday.

Let's seee... I'm going to let my other Miranda lovers make the logical canon and lore arguments while I just get cut to the quick.

AHEM!

It all comes back to BW. Yes they do plot twists but they don't go out of their way to destroy characters as popular as Miranda - AT LEAST not without giving you a heads up that things aren't exactly kosher: I mean really! How hard was it to figure out that things weren't exactly on the level with [spoiler] and the [spoiler] whenever you attempted to bring them into the [spoiler] camp in DA2?

Or kotor, the great plot twist! BW was dropping hints as early as when Carth mentioned: "Those Jedi are powerful, they even have the power to erase memories!"
---"It normally takes years to master the force, you managed to do it in weeks!"
---"I wonder why you and Bastilla are dreaming the same dream? And how do you know all these memories of Revan?"

Or something more familiar, ME1 for example.
Ash: "I don't know, I just got this feeling that things will go bad. So stay safe Commander, you too Lt."
Then that was followed shortly by the whole: Save [spoiler] or [spoiler] choice on Virmire? Come on, this isn't rocket science this is how Bioware works.

Your argument that Miranda is a sociopath and was perhaps lying about her father wanting her dead and that her leaving because she was a teenager and angry with her dad? If you could give me one concrete example in ME2, a hint or clue like the ones I listed above in other BW games, that we might be headed for a plot twist with her then please. Point it out and be heralded as the one person on this entire community site to catch what we all missed.

Modifié par aeetos21, 19 avril 2011 - 03:22 .

[Lymle Lemuri]

@aeetos21:

My intention was to never attack. Only debate. I know there are reasons why people like Miranda, and there are reasons why I don't. I'm glad to hear both view points. :3
I just feel that there needs to be more concrete evidence. I would also bring up this debate regardless of the day of the week. I may have been a bit more brutal if it were after a longer day at work, with pestering kids trading in their Madden games. (I think I'm getting slightly off track here)

I also have a dislike for Ashley, for different reason's of course although I still have some information to read up on in the books before I can go justifying my opinions on her, as it has to do with her religious background.

I have never played kotor so I cant really say anything about that. I would use a context from Dragon Age Origins or DA2 in lue of this. If were on the subject of Bioware. I'm not attacking their games though, as I am mad happy for any new one that perks my interest. Again getting off track.

I never once said Miranda is a sociopath, I DON'T think Miranda would lie. I think she might over exaggerate or have gotten her emotions get in the way of her judgement. I think a confrontation with her Dad in ME3 might be good, if shes in it. And the more and more people talk in her defense the more I am looking forward to it. I would like Miranda to be a bit more enjoyable.

If I intentionally wanted to come in here and start an argument I would have said something like "Tali is awesum, shes lik so much beter than Miranda. ollollollolo!" or "Miranda's teeath r so jacked up dawg." (I've come to find its difficult to misspell words intentionally)

I think I may just go back to lurking after this post.