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[aeetos21]

The thread might be entitled ML - our favorite woman in the galaxy with the goal to discuss all things pertinent to her but in all actuality? It's a love thread, they all are. DAO and DA2 (SPOILERS BELOW, since I can not possibly write any more [spoilers] and crap)




DAO, Morrigan tagging along. There was more to it than simply: well she can help you and she wants to get out of the Wilds. Other than that though there's nothing else to say, no way did I foresee the Dark Ritual thing that early on. When they started talking about Allistair as a bastard and heir to the throne that one was pretty predictable. Anyway, those were the main two in DAO.

DA2, admittedly I felt lost as hell when I first started out. It seemed more like GTA than any BW game and by that I mean all these quests just dumped on you in this sandbox types world where the only real challenge was using the little GPS system on your minimap. Still, given the continuous angst between the Templars and Mages as well as Varric's interrogation it didn't take much to figure out that the end result of all this would be some sort of Exalted March. Isabella meanwhile, she just wouldn't go into that camp. Then you hear the qunari and her are both looking for something...

It might be hard at the time, right when you're in the middle of it all but in hindsight its easy to spot the clues with any BW game. ME2 came out over a year ago and while ME3 has so many uncertainties at this point looking back at ME2 I think it's fair to say that if BW was laying the groundwork for any big plot twists we would've picked up on it by now.

Which brings us full circle to the ME3 theories regarding Miranda:
---She is instrumental in taking down TIM and takes over as Cerberus's new Illusive Woman
---She is extorted by TIM for his own purposes, using Oriana as leverage against Miranda
---Something could happen with her father, though I doubt it would show Miranda in the light you're talking about. More likely, I think, is we'll see TIM threatening to turn Oriana over to him if Miranda doesn't help, which is the extortion thing again. Given the time constraints in ME3 and that BW already has so much to fit in I doubt it'll be anything more than another rescue mission, Anything more than that is asking too much, especially for a character that could have been killed off in ME2 (though admittedly very unlikely). Either way BW just doesn't have the resources, the groundwork, or the fan support to do an about face on Miranda's story right now. They don't have that with any of the characters save Liara and the VS.

The must be Monday thing is because the Miranda thread gets at least one guy like you a week. Last time was one guy claiming that everything we knew about Miranda was a lie and she was a "master of deception" and would betray us to TIM in ME3.

[Ieldra]

@Lymle:
You've brought some fresh wind into this thread, even though we have debated Miranda in the areas you mentioned - taking away Oriana, the Jack incident, the suspicion that her memories may not be quite accurate - before. In principle, you do have a point there, even if most of us here don't see these things quite as one-sided - or more one-sided depending on where you think the neutral viewpoint is.

You've made your points well enough to be taken seriously. On the other hand you can't expect to say things "I don't like Miranda because she behaves like a child/a spoiled teenager" on her fan thread and get only reasonable and emotionally detached replies.

More later.

[Lymle Lemuri]

I like that last guy's theory. It would prove to be most interesting. Especially for the people who romanced Miranda. Course I'm not trying to prove any of you wrong. Truth would need evidence, which I have none of. I fear Miranda's childhood will forever be a mystery to us.

BTW, I know you said guy as a general word for us, but I am indeed female.

I would have made a Miranda thread that wasn't in her character's favor, but tbh...too much work.

[Prudii Aden]

You're not? Isn't that the whole point of a debate (or argument) - to make your opponent agree with you or admit that what you're in favour of is correct?

As for threads against a character? They never last.

[Spartas Husky]

Not really agreeing on the whole "illusive woman". She is more of a commander than an overseer. Then again the difference is negligible between the two post. I see her more effective on field duty though.

Like the idea more on her putting her skills to work for Liara.

[Taritu]

Didn't like Miranda at all until her loyalty mission, actually. Before then, she was clearly the Illusive man's lackey, he's a terrorist who is responsible for the deaths of my entire unit, who engaged in horrific experiments, and she has repeatedly told me how loyal she is to this monster who I want dead. It's only in the loyalty mission where it becomes clear that she was essentially an abused child Tim gave shelter to so he could use her abilities.

Still didn't trust her till the base when she told Tim off, though.

But that's ok, I don't have to like someone to think they're a good character. And Miranda's a good character. I didn't like Sovereign either, or Saren, but they're good characters. So bring her back, I'm curious to see the rest of her story.

But if she betrays me, and the game lets me, bullet in the brain. I still only half trust her.

[Ieldra]

Spartas Husky wrote...
Not really agreeing on the whole "illusive woman". She is more of a commander than an overseer. Then again the difference is negligible between the two post. I see her more effective on field duty though.

Like the idea more on her putting her skills to work for Liara.

There is almost no development I would hate more than Miranda being subordinate to Liara. I'd rather take that disgusting scenario posted by Elvern at some time, the one I don't speak of if I can avoid it.

I can see several variants of a future for her. One is the Illusive Woman scenario, which I favor, another is that exploration scenario I posted earlier - where Miranda and Shepard lead an extended expedition into the unknown regions of the galaxy for a few decades.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 avril 2011 - 08:11 .

[Ieldra]

About trusting Miranda:

Cerberus and Shepard are in accord about the Reaper threat. There is no reason to distrust Miranda as long as that is the case, and as opposed to TIM, Miranda is an idealist in that she does what she does because she thinks it is best for humanity and not for some hidden personal agenda.

My Shepards do not expect personal loyalty, they expect loyalty to the cause. Anything more is a bonus.

[Lymle Lemuri]

Ieldra2 wrote...


My Shepards do not expect personal loyalty, they expect loyalty to the cause. Anything more is a bonus.

Best thing I've read all night. No sarcasm, promise.

Although once the cause is over, dont you think Shepard deserves some personal loyalty for having solved said cause?

[Ieldra]

Lymle Lemuri wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
My Shepards do not expect personal loyalty, they expect loyalty to the cause. Anything more is a bonus.

Best thing I've read all night. No sarcasm, promise.

Although once the cause is over, dont you think Shepard deserves some personal loyalty for having solved said cause?

I do not think that personal loyalty - as opposed to respect - can ever be said to be deserved. He'll certainly deserve a great deal of respect. And he'll deserve honest dealings. In the theoretical case that Miranda and Shepard part ways after ME3 because Miranda works for a different cause, Shepard would deserve that Miranda told him up front instead of going around his back. But I would not expect from her that she gives up other loyalties in favor of Shepard were she not so inclined in the first place.  

Or in more general terms: there is only an obligation to maintain loyalty if you have declared it at some time. There is never an obligation to declare it in the first place, though there are several cultures on Earth which would make you believe so. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 avril 2011 - 08:46 .

[Arijharn]

I think she's a competent and capable person, but I can't see her really matching Jack as an Illusive Woman, but I think my views on that are known already. I can't see her as being a field agent though (not even after the whole events of ME2), but more a leader of a research team perhaps. A position that would make full use of her intellectual edge. I say that because I can't think it would be necessarily hard for an organisation to 'make use' of attractive women who might seduce targets (whereas I think it would be a lot harder to attract and retain intelligent and highly competent researchers etc).

As to post Reapers, I haven't really given much thought into Miranda's future (as long as it doesn't 'infringe' upon my guidelines above), although I think if she entered business of some nature, she'd be very successful.

[Sylvianus]

Hi Miranda's fans.

I want to talk about it with people who do not tell me that I think too much, I write too many lines. I need answers.

I am alone in thinking that the reason why Miranda has resigned is ridiculous? If this is really the case ?

Resign because of a dispute over the strategy to follow ? The discussion was very short and shallow, how such a decision could be made ?

After all what is Cerberus for her, after all she has done with cerberus, after all these years in Cerberus. Absolutely no one would be able to dance from one side to another just like that, no tearing, nothing, without any difficulty, attempt to pick up the pieces. That did not Miranda. The explanation of Miranda left cerberus because of spin is strictly disconcerting.

I have tremendous respect for this character, but it's very difficult for me to understand that. We are at war, there are differences in strategy, limits for everyone, there will be differences. But we do not have that kind of spins lightly when the enemy threat, after spending her entire life loyal to a cause.

She has absolutely no reason to leave Cerberus, just a momentary difference with a man, with her shief, which remains a key element in the fight against the reapers at the time, especially since she was satisfactory, based is destroyed, he will not use it. They can then go back to thinking and methods to use against the reapers. And she knows he is very pertinant to this game and it can be a formidable resource against the reapers.

Yes, the beliefs may be not match hers, on this collectors's base utility. But if destroyed this base, He will not use it. Why leave ? Says me. She doesn't hate TIM, she still respects him, Cerberus is still a supporting force unconquerable, efficient to Humanity, the suicide mission and funding of the project Lazare are a proof. While the Alliance does nothing to help.

Miranda will just go like that when she thought that Cerberus was the only one who can save humanity? Is it not better to think she is in a great moment of doubt, she leaves one last chance with this entity, despite major differences on strategy ?

Normally she should follow Shepard, but remained far linked to Cerberus, and not leave everything like that. Personally, I do not see how it could have a major role, if it hasn't links anymore with Cerberus.

Yes, she can have a secondary mission to help locate ... but it seems difficult to believe if it is outside of Cerberus. How could she have information on the Tim's new position ?

Modifié par Sylvianus, 19 avril 2011 - 10:07 .

[Ieldra]

@Sylvianus:
The problem with the scene at the Collector base is that Miranda is caught between a rock and a hard place:

When Shepard decides to destroy the base, TIM orders Miranda to prevent him. Should Miranda try to follow that order, she would very likely be killed by Shepard and the other team member, and she knows this. Should Miranda not follow that order, she'll have refused a direct order from her superior and the boss of the organization she's working for. To refuse an order in a strategically important matter like this usually means you're fired. In case of Cerberus, it might mean you're to be hunted down and killed. In any case her loyalty to TIM would be compromised. So, you can see her resigning as pre-empting the inevitable.

I guess she could have tried to reason with TIM or with Shepard, depending on what she thinks about the matter, but that would have incurred additional problems for the writers by removing ambiguity from Miranda, and she needs some ambiguity to be acceptable for a wider range of players. In the end, we all know TIM wouldn't have relented and she would have faced the choice to obey or.....pre-empt the inevitable and resign, throwing her fate in with Shepard. The writers just skipped the reasoning part.

If you see her resignation as thusly pragmatic, it ceases to be a problem. She'll retain some Cerberus connections anyway, but I find it hard to imagine that she could retain her status as a high-ranking Cerberus operative after not following TIMs orders at the base. Even if not following his orders was the only way for her to survive.

So I have no problems with her resignation as such. I do think her supporting the destruction of the base is out of character, but since debates about that inevitably lead to flame wars, I'll not go into this more deeply unless asked to do so.

Edit:
Just read Jebel Krong's answer below. While there is also this - that Miranda may have developed doubts about Cerberus while working with Shepard - the signs are very subtle, situational and open to interpretation. I do not think they support her resignation at the end without the conundrum I mentioned above. Her loyalty to Cerberus is a trademark, such traits aren't sacrificed lightly. I do not think her end game choice is obvious. But as it is, she is forced into a choice, and her doubts are at least strong enough to make sacrificing her life to TIM's ambitions a doubtful course of action.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 avril 2011 - 10:26 .

[Jebel Krong]

Sylvianus wrote...

*snip*

miranda changes quite noticeably yet naturally throughout the game. of course it helps if you take her on certain missions *cough* collector vessel *cough* and doing her loyalty mission, making her end-game choice very obvious. there are some pronounced "jumps" in behaviour (most noticeable at the start) but that is a byproduct of lack of time/story-driving forward.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 19 avril 2011 - 10:11 .

[Sylvianus]

Thank you for the reply. I understand better.

@ Ieldra Ah, but I'm totally agree to say that it is in the character of Miranda that she has chosen to destroy the base. Unlike TIM, she has limits, even if it is not a pure paragon. But the scene gives the impression that she is angry and she responds with anger. That this sentence is more challenging temporary, impulsive, and does not reflect a conscious decision, but final and so radical.

Now it is true that with TIM, it's either you obey me, or you learned. I am ready to accept this.

But precisely what I was thinking it might have been thinking that he would punish her career, because Miranda is too important for this entity.

What saddens me with this scene is that it seems that everything she said about Cerberus before, her loyalty to an entity that has more than once saved her, has no meaning anymore.

Looks like she had no difficulty leaving the group. And in the end not even a word about her decision after the suicide's mission on the fact that she left Cerberus.

She expressed support for our decision, that TIM would be furious, adding he has not seen what they had seen. Which adds to my confusion, because it gives the impression of speaking as if she always referred to him somehow.

But you're right, to disobey TIM is knowledge that can be hunted.

Anyway, I hope that in M3, they will give more substance to this resignation, the more reason to think there was a real break, a real separation. Between her and Cerberus.

As the willingness to go after her, her sister or another.

@Jebel :  Yeah, you''re right.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 19 avril 2011 - 10:38 .

[Ieldra]

@Sylvianus:
I agree with you in this: resigning from Cerberus is a big step for Miranda, and it should not have been treated by the writers as casually as it was. I also think Mac Walters - who wrote this - lacks insight into Miranda and in general, IMO they didn't really think a lot about this decision except that they wanted to make Miranda more palatable to Paragon players and that the scene had to be dramatic. "Consider this my resignation" is more dramatically satisfying than "Sorry, to go against Shepard would be suicide at this point", which would've also made her appear weak. I wouldn't have liked that. In the end, her resignation was probably the best solution out of a set of generally unsatisfying ones. At least the majority of her fans likes her resignation.

As for the CB decision, we'd have to establish what exactly is so bad about keeping it before we can say anything about Miranda's reaction. "She has limits", that's easy to say, but please, what are the horrible limits that would be exceeded by that simple act? TIM building his own Reaper makes no sense, and whatever happened there is in the past and should - for a pragmatic mind like Miranda - not have a great influence on her decision. OK......I'll stop here before I write yet another wall of text about this.

While we're at it, here's another question that has been asked about Miranda's resignation: should her resignation have depended on her loyalty? Should she, if not loyal, have tried to oppose Shepard (possibly resulting in her death at Shepard's hands) instead of resigning? Everyone else already has an opinion about this, but since you're new I'm asking again.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 avril 2011 - 10:58 .

[Ieldra]

Very nice Miranda fan art:



If anyone can tell me who the artist is....

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 avril 2011 - 11:10 .

[Ieldra]

And........I couldn't believe my eyes, but: Miranda won one of the oldest romance polls! Almost 1000 participants.

http://social.biowar...00&poll_id=1994

[Sylvianus]

@Ieldra

As for the CB decision, we'd have to establish what exactly is so bad about keeping it before we can say anything about Miranda's reaction. "She has limits", that's easy to say, but please, what are the horrible limits that would be exceeded by that simple act? TIM building his own Reaper makes no sense, and whatever happened there is in the past and should - for a pragmatic mind like Miranda - not have a great influence on her decision. OK......I'll stop here before I write yet another wall of text about this. 

I didn't see it that way.. You're right. It is true that even someone as pragmatic as can be seen TIM loses his head and that his decision doesn't appear make sense. This is probably true to think that.

Also, Very good questions :

If you want my own thinking, Miranda chose this way to challenge TIM, in fact, because it's her way, she has her own beliefs, not because she was loyal to shepard. She is too independent for me to only rely on the decision by Shepard regarding this issue. Her thoughts were just in perfect harmony with his own at the time. She listened to the conversation and decided that TIM rambled. Besides, if we keep the base, Miranda disagrees qith shepard. So I do not think that her choice had anything to do with Shepard at the time.

Now if she did not agree, no, she should not oppose him. Shepard and Cerberus have the same desire to save humanity. Because of a difference in strategy, we decided to kill a potential ally, considered as the best way to stop the reapers ? (That is why the project Lazare was created ) It's crazy ! The TIm's orders didn't make sense and goes beyond the measure. It's not just a matter of life or death. Moreover it is doubtful of his reasoning, because he is not on the field, it is far away, sitting on a chair. Besides Miranda is also loyal to Shepard, loyalty supppose it also disagree without necessarily clash.

Then quite frankly, in this kind of radical situation, where everything happens very quickly, and may be confused, it's very difficult to reach such an extreme in her thoughts, especially to its allies on the ground.

That's how I think all this !

Modifié par Sylvianus, 19 avril 2011 - 11:46 .

[Jebel Krong]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Very nice Miranda fan art:



If anyone can tell me who the artist is....

wow that's great. i've never seen it and the part name on the filename @ imageshack must be incomplete because i can't find anything on it - where did you find it?

EDIT: nvm found it: mehdic

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 19 avril 2011 - 11:53 .

[Ieldra]

Thanks, JK.

Changed the OP. Set mehdic's fantastic Miranda fan art as the new thread title picture. Also, the old embedding method for videos doesn't appear to work anymore, *and* youtube has apparently removed the service of creating embedding code for you. So how can I do this now? I'd like Yannkees video to remain embedded in the OP.

[jtav]

That's fantastic art. Regarding the Illusive Woman ideal, Miranda may just be what Cerberus needs in the aftermath of ME3. The primary task of humanity is going to be rebuilding and recovery after the Reaper war, and Miranda's administrative talents would be ideal for that. Her working as Liara's immediate subordinate is still my preferred ending (sorry Ieldra). You'd probably hear my cheering halfway around the world if that's what happened.

[jtav]

Go over and talk to her? It's an RPG. You talk to anything and everything you can, especially party members. As for what intrigued me, she had me from the moment she shot the incredibly obvious traitor and saved me from carrying around the Idiot Ball for the next fifteen hours. I love Lazarus Station Miranda so much. It's a pity she largely vanished once the prologue was over.