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Miranda Lawson - our favorite woman in the galaxy (III)


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#13101
TomY90

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Saibh wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Saibh wrote...
or accusing sexual harassment in the workplace for liking Miranda.

Technically, the Normandy SR-2 is a civilian ship and Cerberus is a terrorist organization.Posted Image

I didn't say fraternization, I said sexual harrassment in the workplace. Miranda is still Shepard's subordinate.

You can argue that Miranda wouldn't put up with harassment if she didn't want to--and I'd agree. But I was equating it to calling someone a pedophile for liking Tali or Liara's romance. In both cases, the person is wrong.


I do agree with you about the person being wrong about the pedophile comment.

but back to the fraternization against ranks involving miranda and simply their is no rules against it within cerberus (jacob even mentioned this)
and technically your neither cerberus nor alliance and miranda is no way alliance so the rules do not apply to miranda and you

#13102
jtav

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Rules aren't what matters here. Can they make the call if the choice is saving the other or completing the mission? That's why fraternization is such a dumb idea.

Modifié par jtav, 30 avril 2011 - 02:52 .


#13103
Sigyn2011

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Don't s*** where you eat--it is the most logical statement, I'll have to agree with that. However, there were a couple of Shepards of mine that just found her too irresistible. And regarding TIM's relationship with Miranda as discussed before, I think that he may have taken advantage of her (earlier in life). Maybe once or twice. Her real father was such a douche. Perhaps she found a father-like relationship with TIM...and may have lowered her inhibitions.

#13104
PMC65

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Sigyn2011 wrote...

Don't s*** where you eat--it is the most logical statement, I'll have to agree with that. However, there were a couple of Shepards of mine that just found her too irresistible. And regarding TIM's relationship with Miranda as discussed before, I think that he may have taken advantage of her (earlier in life). Maybe once or twice. Her real father was such a douche. Perhaps she found a father-like relationship with TIM...and may have lowered her inhibitions.


I think I like the "Don't get your honey where you bake your bread" better.Posted Image

To be honest, I found Miranda's change of heart on Cerberus odd ... Even if she is not loyal to you she will not agree to stopping you from blowing up the base. Her relationship with Cerberus & TIM has been good up to the end game so I always found it odd that all of a sudden she doesn't trust TIM. I understand that Tali & Garrus may be upset ... but everyone? That felt stupid ... well, except Jack. She never even commented on my choice which I thought felt the most honest - Jack wouldn't give a s$^# one way or the other.

#13105
Sigyn2011

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That's why I kind of argued with the whole sentimental thing versus pragmatism when Miranda had her disagreement with TIM. Not sure if it's just a glitch in the game or not, but one would think that if she never actually had that argument with TIM, she'd most likely still be working for Cerberus. Jack does later on congratulate Shepard for destroying the Collector base if you go speak with her after the main mission is finished, but yeah, she doesn't say anything during the boss fight.

#13106
PMC65

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Sigyn2011 wrote...

That's why I kind of argued with the whole sentimental thing versus pragmatism when Miranda had her disagreement with TIM. Not sure if it's just a glitch in the game or not, but one would think that if she never actually had that argument with TIM, she'd most likely still be working for Cerberus. Jack does later on congratulate Shepard for destroying the Collector base if you go speak with her after the main mission is finished, but yeah, she doesn't say anything during the boss fight.


Jack never comments on my blowing up the base (glitch?). Cerberus has helped Miranda hide her sister ... why would she all of a sudden put her sister at risk? I don't think that Miranda, Jacob, Samara, Grunt or Thane should have reason to doubt giving or blowing up the base. oh well ...

#13107
MsSihaKatieKrios

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I'm sorry for the earlier rant. I just came out of a flame war with a bunch of talimancers on YouTube and I was kinda pissed(and on PMS), so I didn't think before typing. And you know what they can say about every conceivable LI that doesn't wear a helmet 24/7...

Anyways, Miranda wouldve been around 16-17 when she ran and joined Ceberus, so yeah, she wouldve been pretty 'green'.

But how sheltered do you think Miranda was before she ran?

#13108
PMC65

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MsSihaKatieKrios wrote...

I'm sorry for the earlier rant. I just came out of a flame war with a bunch of talimancers on YouTube and I was kinda pissed(and on PMS), so I didn't think before typing. And you know what they can say about every conceivable LI that doesn't wear a helmet 24/7...

Anyways, Miranda wouldve been around 16-17 when she ran and joined Ceberus, so yeah, she wouldve been pretty 'green'.

But how sheltered do you think Miranda was before she ran?


In my game play, Miranda has always been smart. There is a "dark secret" about her father that she won't talk about and that is the main reason that she ran with her baby sister. She didn't want her father to turn his "attention" on her sister. She went to TIM to help her with keeping her sister safe and even though her father donated $$$$ to Cerberus, TIM agreed.

TIM has always been good to her and even took her side against her $$$$ father, so I can't understand her "mistrust" of him at the end of the game. That part seemed "untrue" to me, her sudden "Hi Shepard, don't give this man the base. I really have no reason but that the writers are making me say this."

#13109
Collider

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Miranda acts OOC at times. I figure this is because she was written by more than one writer.
I do think that she should have advocated keeping the base. Seems more fitting for her character.

#13110
Spartas Husky

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PMC65 wrote...

MsSihaKatieKrios wrote...

I'm sorry for the earlier rant. I just came out of a flame war with a bunch of talimancers on YouTube and I was kinda pissed(and on PMS), so I didn't think before typing. And you know what they can say about every conceivable LI that doesn't wear a helmet 24/7...

Anyways, Miranda wouldve been around 16-17 when she ran and joined Ceberus, so yeah, she wouldve been pretty 'green'.

But how sheltered do you think Miranda was before she ran?


In my game play, Miranda has always been smart. There is a "dark secret" about her father that she won't talk about and that is the main reason that she ran with her baby sister. She didn't want her father to turn his "attention" on her sister. She went to TIM to help her with keeping her sister safe and even though her father donated $$$$ to Cerberus, TIM agreed.

TIM has always been good to her and even took her side against her $$$$ father, so I can't understand her "mistrust" of him at the end of the game. That part seemed "untrue" to me, her sudden "Hi Shepard, don't give this man the base. I really have no reason but that the writers are making me say this."


Your making TIM sound as an adoptive father who cares about Miri more for the person she is than what an asset she can be to cerberus.

Cerberus is who can be an asset and a liability Miranda knows that. I dont think she ever has trusted anyone but her sister. She probably trusted TIM to do whats best for Cerberus not necessarily what is best for her.

From what I understand she changed during the course of the game. She realized being a totalitarian doesn't always provide the best results.

#13111
aeetos21

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I feel dumber after reading the last page, I mean really? The only thing beneficial was the term "buckethead" - I LOVE THAT!

#13112
wright1978

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I find her actions regarding destroying the base as perfectly in character. All through the game she seems to want to convince you that Cerberus has noble intentions and that its reputation as evil is wrong. I always assume TIM has kept her away from the worst of the operaions as he knew she wasn't a complete zealot. When her boss betrays her and changes the mission parameters right at the end, she is shocked and then is open to accepting Shepherd's call which she finds more morally acceptable.

#13113
Vertigo_1

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Collider wrote...

Miranda acts OOC at times. I figure this is because she was written by more than one writer.
I do think that she should have advocated keeping the base. Seems more fitting for her character.


Two writers actually...there was a post by a dev confirming this long ago but I can't see to find it (may have been in the old forums)
Anyway Patrick Weekes wrote Miranda (except on critpath).
Also he goes into some detail here.

"When the lead writers had to give up some of their followers in order to
tackle more of the critical path of the game (critpath == the main
story sections, analogous to "Eden Prime" or "becoming a Spectre" in
terms of not being a normal planet, but having a ton of focused
attention on it), I finished off the work that they had started on a
couple of other squad members, specifically parts of Miranda and another
unannounced follower."

Modifié par g54, 30 avril 2011 - 07:13 .


#13114
MisterJB

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Spartas Husky wrote...
Cerberus is who can be an asset and a liability Miranda knows that. I dont think she ever has trusted anyone but her sister. She probably trusted TIM to do whats best for Cerberus not necessarily what is best for her.

No, Miranda clearly trusted The Illusive Man on a personal level.
"Whatever else people might say about him, I can assure you he's got humanity's best interests at heart. That includes you and me"

And then on the Collector ship:
"Shepard: That son of a **** sent us rigth into Collector hands!
Miranda: There has to be another explanation. The Illusive Man wouldn't do this to us. He just...wouldn't."

During the course of the mission, TIM betrayed that trust many times; sacrificing civilians to the Collectors, luring them into a trap, sanctioning the kidnapping of children, ordering her to kill Shepard whose only crime had been disobeying an order that she too tought should be disobeyed and I also like to believe Shepard explained to her that Cerberus purposely exposed civilians to the Dragon's Teeth.

Modifié par MisterJB, 30 avril 2011 - 10:30 .


#13115
MsSihaKatieKrios

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It's propaganda at it's finest. TIM shielded and blinded Miranda from and towards the nastier parts of Cerberus so her faith wouldn't waver. But when she did find out, she pretty much lost trust in TIM. and the fact that he sent her along into a deathtrap called the collector ship made her realise TIM saw her as nothing more than a tool. Not to mention Shep pointing that out a few times.

#13116
TomY90

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MsSihaKatieKrios wrote...

It's propaganda at it's finest. TIM shielded and blinded Miranda from and towards the nastier parts of Cerberus so her faith wouldn't waver. But when she did find out, she pretty much lost trust in TIM. and the fact that he sent her along into a deathtrap called the collector ship made her realise TIM saw her as nothing more than a tool. Not to mention Shep pointing that out a few times.


yeah I do agree with you cerberus were strange with her like that they tended to put her on more noble missions like stop Bartarian Extremist's, find shepherds body, bring shepherd to life, support shepherd throughout his/her mission

instead of the more 'evil' jobs they do like kill alliance men, experiment on children, enslave rachni, thorian creepers, from what we can tell she did not get ordered to go out just to murder someone for cerberus either.

I do think though it was a good move them to show her changing with her time away from cerberus cold calculating missions

#13117
Sigyn2011

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And though I hate to say it, no matter what kind of relationship you have with someone, being in it is definitely harder than being outside of it. TIM gave her everything she ever wanted or needed up until she met Shepard. Why else would she have a reason to leave him?

#13118
xelander

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PMC65 wrote..
...To be honest, I found Miranda's change of heart on Cerberus odd ...  Her relationship with Cerberus & TIM has been good up to the end game so I always found it odd that all of a sudden she doesn't trust TIM. ...


Not so odd. At the end of her LM she makes the distinction that everyone she trusts "works for Cerberus... or you". So this is where her ideological loyalty (Cerberus) starts do diverge from her personal loyalty (Shep). Moreover, Shep is a "lead by example" type and thus loyalty to him personally would almost always trump loyalty to TIM personally.

Then there's the Collector ship where you can hear the doubt in her voice when considering that TIM wouldn't betray the team (trust is undermined). Also, the stratagem of luring the Collectors to Horizon was pretty harsh and heartless, even if it might be justifiable by some (I tend to this group most of the time). Miranda is far along the scale of "ends justify the means", but she still draws lines (e.g. her convo where she defends Cerberus for the rachni and thorian research, but condemns Teltin).

There is Jack's LM when you can hear the revulsion in her voice "God, they kept children here?" She still defends Cerberus but she is bound to be wondering by now whether the source (TIM and his policies) isn't poisoning the fruit.

Sadly, there are no comments by the squaddies in Overlord but that was utterly revolting by almost any standards and I doubt MIranda would've approved.

All these things accumulate and fill the cup, readying it for that final drop.

And so, at the end, she is forced to pick sides - choose Shep, who has just done the impossible, whose opinion on destroying the base she shares, and to whom her personal loyalty goes (regardless of romance and assuming that you've most likely done her LM) , or TIM, who is absolutely ruthless and is ready to destroy the one, who he himself defined as humanity's best chance not so long ago; to whom trust, loyalty, compassion, brotherhood (which are virtues to which humanity aspires and is therefore defined by) mean nothing. As Shep can say in some dialogue choices: "I won't let fear compromise who I am" and "We'll win win this war without sacrificing the soul of our species"

So, when put in all this context, I don't find her change of heart irrational and out of the blue. Of course, it's not as good as the more detailed ME1 story/char development, but that's another discussion.

#13119
TomY90

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xelander spot on and great description of mirandas time with cerberus and time with shepherd

Ok I feel really dumb asking this but can someone tell me how to get a banner to work on the signature on the forums I am trying to get one of the miranda banners to work but all that pops up is a question mark where it is meant to be.

I would very much appreciate it if someone could tell me how to get it to work thank you.

and sorry for it being so out of the blue on here

Modifié par TomY90, 30 avril 2011 - 02:10 .


#13120
PMC65

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xelander wrote...

PMC65 wrote..
...To be honest, I found Miranda's change of heart on Cerberus odd ...  Her relationship with Cerberus & TIM has been good up to the end game so I always found it odd that all of a sudden she doesn't trust TIM. ...


Not so odd. At the end of her LM she makes the distinction that everyone she trusts "works for Cerberus... or you". So this is where her ideological loyalty (Cerberus) starts do diverge from her personal loyalty (Shep). Moreover, Shep is a "lead by example" type and thus loyalty to him personally would almost always trump loyalty to TIM personally.


If she is loyal or LI with Shep I could see where she would stand down, although the "take this job & shove it" line just falls flat for me. Miranda wasn't loyal to Shep nor did she go on many missions after the debacle "Ash meet Miranda" Horizon event so all I heard were the cabin "Cerberus is good" speeches. Cut to "TIM, take this job .... " Jack and Shep stopped what they were doing and looked at her confused. I guess non-loyal Miranda had her own reasons, won't know because she didn't make it.  Posted Image

#13121
xelander

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hehe, when you don't do her LM, don't take her on missions and don't talk to her in between, you can't expect to have much insight into her character now, can you? :P

I don't have playthroughs like that, but I get how this can be sudden in your case. It's due to your own choices though..

#13122
PMC65

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xelander wrote...

hehe, when you don't do her LM, don't take her on missions and don't talk to her in between, you can't expect to have much insight into her character now, can you? :P

I don't have playthroughs like that, but I get how this can be sudden in your case. It's due to your own choices though..


I did do her LM but that Jack vs Miranda fight ... oh well. I guess that might show how she can turn on a dime. I help her save her sister but don't side with her in her fight with Jack and all of a sudden she won't talk to Shep anymore. But I can understand that the game is set for certain responses no matter how you play it

The game where my Shep does romance her I had him save the collector base since she was so Cerberus (she was not with him at that moment). I thought that at least she would have supported his decision when he was back on the ship ... but no. Isn't that like real life, you try and do something for someone and whack! Posted Image

#13123
jtav

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Actually, PMC has a point. I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but her resignation should have been loyalty dependent. And when you have something that major for a character arc, the build up cannot be hidden away in optional dialogue.

#13124
Spartas Husky

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MisterJB wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...
Cerberus is who can be an asset and a liability Miranda knows that. I dont think she ever has trusted anyone but her sister. She probably trusted TIM to do whats best for Cerberus not necessarily what is best for her.

No, Miranda clearly trusted The Illusive Man on a personal level.
"Whatever else people might say about him, I can assure you he's got humanity's best interests at heart. That includes you and me"

And then on the Collector ship:
"Shepard: That son of a **** sent us rigth into Collector hands!
Miranda: There has to be another explanation. The Illusive Man wouldn't do this to us. He just...wouldn't."

During the course of the mission, TIM betrayed that trust many times; sacrificing civilians to the Collectors, luring them into a trap, sanctioning the kidnapping of children, ordering her to kill Shepard whose only crime had been disobeying an order that she too tought should be disobeyed and I also like to believe Shepard explained to her that Cerberus purposely exposed civilians to the Dragon's Teeth.


Oh right. I forgot about the derelict ship part.

Well proves even more miranda had more than enough reason to flick him off by the time she did.

#13125
Ieldra

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Here's my take on it:

(1) Loyalty is important for Miranda. Her loyalty to Cerberus is - or was - a defining character trait. She won't change her loyalty lightly. But up to the second romance conversation, she still speaks as the "Cerberus loyalist", and there is never any indication that she doubts TIM, expect in one optional dialogue on the Collector ship. Thus, that she resigns is decidedly odd.

(2) My explanation for that is: had she tried to stop Shepard from destroying the base, she would have been killed - she can't go against Shepard and the other team member and expect to win. So at this point she had the option to either die for TIM and his cause or throw in her lot with Shepard. Caught between a rock and a hard place, she decided to live.

(3) Her recommendation to destroy the Collector base is out of character. Most especially, the way she does it in that optional dialogue is. Miranda has been TIMs most competent operative and would not have recommended to destroy the base before getting everything out of it that might help against the Reapers. Most especially, she would not have recommended to do it for sentimental reasons.

(4) Personal loyalty is less important for Miranda than loyalty to a cause. Thus, her personal loyalty to Shepard and the trust that has been established between them plays a lesser part in her professional decisions. Thus, I see her resignation ruled by practical concerns primarily (see (2), and that explains that her decision is not loyalty-dependent.

(5) The following elements may also be secondary factors in her decision:
(a) Shepard has proven that he acts - at least in part - in the spirit of what she believes in - the protection of humanity. I do not think she would support destroying the base because of that, but it may give her a little added push towards the resignation, once it is established that Shepard will not back down from his decision.
(B) It was she who brought Shepard back. He is, in some way, her creation. She would not like to see him sacrificed.

I might mention that this scenario does not appear in my games. I always keep the base, and so Miranda never resigns. That she might not trust TIM any more is still possible. I would have liked her to resign, but it's not worth making a decision over that I think is stupid. In this case, the strategic reasoning must overrule personal considerations.

The reason why she acts out of character sometimes has been provided by Collider above: she was written by two different persons, and the person who wrote her on the "critical path" (i.e. in important main plot situations) was more concerned about how she'd fit into the plot than keeping her in character. In this case, I think they wanted to avoid a possible falling-out between Miranda and Shepard in the case they are in a relationship.

@Spartas Husky:
That proves nothing. This is an optional dialogue that only appears if you jump to the conclusion that TIM has betrayed you. If you are more careful in your judgment, she doesn't say that. Above all, this is the *only* place where Miranda expresses doubt in TIM. Doubt - not disagreement and anger.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 avril 2011 - 06:03 .