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[MisterJB]

PMC65 wrote...

I did do her LM but that Jack vs Miranda fight ... oh well. I guess that might show how she can turn on a dime. I help her save her sister but don't side with her in her fight with Jack and all of a sudden she won't talk to Shep anymore. But I can understand that the game is set for certain responses no matter how you play it

So you call grabbing the trust Miranda placed on Shepard (something she rearely does) and throw it at her face a dime? Because that's exactly what you do if you side with Jack during that confrontation.
And you were actually surprised when Miranda returned your relationship to a more professional level?

Modifié par MisterJB, 30 avril 2011 - 06:18 .

[PMC65]

MisterJB wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

I did do her LM but that Jack vs Miranda fight ... oh well. I guess that might show how she can turn on a dime. I help her save her sister but don't side with her in her fight with Jack and all of a sudden she won't talk to Shep anymore. But I can understand that the game is set for certain responses no matter how you play it

So you call grabbing the trust Miranda placed on Shepard (something she rearely does) and throw it at her face a dime? Because that's exactly what you do if you side with Jack during that confrontation.
And you were actually surprised when Miranda returned your relationship to a more professional level?

No, I thought that between the two (Miranda & Jack) it would be easier to have a mature discussion with Miranda later than it would be for Jack, especially since I didn't have a paragon or renegade option ... I wouldn't use the word "mature" and "Jack" in the same sentence by the way.

Here I had just come back with Jack on her loyalty mission where I saw what she had been through, cut to the heated argument where the two women are at each other and yes, I thought Jack was more emotionally on the edge then Miranda at that moment. So for the sake of the mission and to keep crazy Jack from putting a hole in the Normandy, I said "OK Jack you are right ... Miranda back off from crazy Jack" - Between the two women, I felt that Miranda had the maturity and intellect to discuss the issue with Shep later after she cooled down ... Jack, not so much.

My reasoning wasn't wrong since the game will allow you, if you gain enough charm, to make up with Miranda by explaining this but you are SOL if you don't get enough blue man group pre-SM. And she didn't turn it to a more "professional" level. She was pissed and kept telling me to go talk to Jack when I approached her. I really hate the whole blue/red point system thing. So Miranda died during the SM which did not make Shepard happy. I have always hated that Miranda - Jack fight!

[jtav]

Guys, help me out here. Do you think this Shepard is a good fit for Miranda?

Matt was pretty much forced into the Alliance after Mindoir because of his extremely high biotic potential. He's been trained to be a super soldier and ideal Marine, and for the most part he tries to live up to that. Tries being the operative word. He's a person who appears charming, but it's a defense mechanism to keep them from getting close. He's generally and unremarkably Paragon, though his reasoning is about more what should and must be done than any warm and fuzzy feelings. And then Virmire happens. Matt sacrifices Ashley because Kaidan is that technically trained officer. He becomes a man possessed. The only thing that matters to him anymore is stopping the Reapers. Saving the Council has nothing to do with any kind of morality, but is a cold, tactical realization that their deaths would weaken Citadel civilization at a time he cannot afford to be weakened.

ME2 comes. He's livid about being forced to work for Cerberus and takes it out on anyone available, most notably Miranda. On the other hand, what is he supposed to do? Let the colonists die? Again, he's absolutely obsessed with the Reapers. He will do anything to make the galaxy stronger. He even leaves David with Archer on the off chance they really can weaken the geth. He keeps the genophage cure for the same reason. It'll probably be a problem later, but there has to be a later first. Legion is extremely fortunate that he was curious about the talking geth. But once he understood that the geth wanted the Reapers free, he got very drunk, but decided to strengthen the true geth. He doesn't sleep well at night over giving the CB to TIM, but he agrees with TIM's reasoning. He feels horribly guilty over Arrival, wondering if maybe he didn't look hard enough for another way because of his history. He'll sacrifice himself because war with the batarians is a very bad thing right now.

Prior relationship with Liara, who he loved very much. If I did romance Miranda, nothing would happen until after he and Liara broke up. I just can't decide.

[MisterJB]

PMC65 wrote...
 I said "OK Jack you are right ... Miranda back off from crazy Jack"

Except that's not what Shepard says. It's much more agressive and one sided.

Between the two women, I felt that Miranda had the maturity and intellect to discuss the issue with Shep later after she cooled down ... Jack, not so much.

And she has. You just need to have enough Paragon points to explain to Miranda your reasoning. If you don't, Miranda is not a mind reader and from her point of view, Shepard betrayed her after she had placed her trust on him, thus her two only friends turned on her when she needed them. That's certainly not a "dime"

And she didn't turn it to a more "professional" level. She was pissed and kept telling me to go talk to Jack when I approached her.

Yes, she did. Miranda stays civil and professional on the field and on the debriefing after missions.
When you approach someone on their private room, obviously you want to talk about something personal.

Modifié par MisterJB, 30 avril 2011 - 07:01 .

[PMC65]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]PMC65 wrote...
 I said "OK Jack you are right ... Miranda back off from crazy Jack"[/quote]

Except that's not what Shepard says. It's much more agressive and one sided.

 [quote- Between the two women, I felt that Miranda had the maturity and intellect to discuss the issue with Shep later after she cooled down ... Jack, not so much.
[/quote]

And she has. You just need to have enough Paragon points to explain to Miranda your reasoning. If you don't, Miranda is not a mind reader and from her point of view, Shepard betrayed her after she had placed her trust on him, thus her two only friends turned on her when she needed them. That's certainly not a "dime"


[quote]And she didn't turn it to a more "professional" level. She was pissed and kept telling me to go talk to Jack when I approached her. [/quote]
Yes, she did. Miranda stays civil and professional on the field and on the debriefing after missions.
When you approach someone on their private room, obviously you want to talk about something personal.
[/quote]

As I said, I hated that fight and was sad to see Miranda die in that game. I almost pushed Jack off the side out of anger but ... oh, well. She lived in the next game.

[xelander]

jtav wrote...

Guys, help me out here. Do you think this Shepard is a good fit for Miranda?

snip

.

Ultimately, if you wish him to get together with Miranda, you'll be able to justify it; there are myriads of strange couplings in our world, and different degrees to which they work..

Personally, I believe that Miri needs someone with a strong personality, whom she deicdedly knows she can't squash underfoot and who can be strong and accepting enough that she can be vulnerable. And second, someone who is patient and insightful enough to pierce her crusty defensive shell and will know to cherish all the sweetness beneath. She won't proactively go searching for a relationship and intimate "connectedness". Probably also someone with whom she can meet on a purely intellectual level, given that this is a defining trait in her characterization. A "badboy" stereotype might also be applicable, especially given her low self-esteem issues, but at 35 I'd suspect she would've already "been there, done that" and we all know she learns fast

Sounds like your Shep is a good guy who lost his way and is on a downward spiral. She might be attracted by his sheer emotional vulnerabilty, but she is far too possessed and intelligent to recognize this as just a momentary impulse. It seems you are going for a tortured hero, and you've got the tortured part right down (the negative force), but you need to establish for yourself the hero part (i.e. the positive driving force in him) and it will determine whether they are a good fit.

To put it simply, if Shep is primarily defined by the negative, the most they can have is a short fling, but Miranda is too smart and focused for that. If at some point he recovers the positive in him, then, who knows...

Note: she can't be the sole reason for that recovery, though.

[Ieldra]

LOL, xelander, your interpretation of jtav's Shepard and Miranda's being attracted to him differs considerably from my own:

In fact, he has not lost his way - he just noticed, at great personal pain, that sometimes there is no path to your goal without sacrifices. This has made his decision-making more pragmatic, and without that element Miranda would not be attracted to him. When before he was strongly Paragon, he is now less so. That does not prevent him from being "generally a good guy", and is by no means a "downward spiral" but the result of a learning process.

He has the kind of personality Miranda can respect, that is one of the prerequisites for her being attracted to him. How he deals with her is as yet undefined. I can see him take the path to the kiss in the romance conversations. Miranda will not be attracted by a too pronounced emotional vulnerability, nor is "sweetness" a primary hidden attribute of her, as I see it. She will not often be emotionally vulnerable herself in the relationship, but will appreciate that she could be if she wanted. More often she will be demanding, and their relationship will have a competitive element. Times of quiet will be rare but appreciated.

[xelander]

Heh , fair enough
The "sweetness" was intended as more of a tongue-in-cheek thing, but I guess I'm too sleepy to convey well what I mean.

Anyway, I feel this is all about to degrade into a discussion about things which are very much in the eye of the beholder. The in-game characterization is vague enough to let us fill in details of our own and they may vary greatly from person to person. So let me just say, it's a great game and a great character and a good night to all in the appropriate timezones. )

[jtav]

Ieldra, you do realize Matt is a perfect Broken Ace, dont you? I do think they're pretty good together, providing I can mentally substitute "Damn it--you're right" for the actual last romance scene and replace the engine room scene with the "promise" scene. They kind of mesh because they're both emotionally guarded people who aren't going to be spouting declarations of love. Deflect, deflect, deflect. Saying what he really feels might jinx the relationship.

Well, it took a year, but I finally found a Shepard who would suit her.

I really ****** the Plath quote, and it does suit her.

[Ieldra]

Nyoka wrote...
Perfection is terrible, it cannot have children.
Cold as snow breath, it tamps the womb

Where the yew tress blow like hydras,
The tree of life and the tree of life

Unloosing their moons, month after month, to no purpose.

--from "The Munich Mannequins". I can't post the whole thing, it would be a copyright infringement. Whoa, you'd think someone over at Bioware was reading Plath while writing Miranda. She's perfect, she's cold, and the snow breath reminds me of her white outfit and pale skin. As fot the other thing... you get it. The rest of the piece is as fitting as these first lines.

Interesting. Miranda does indeed appear to be the embodiment of that outward perfection, and while she is not exactly trapped in anyone's expectations but rather limited by her own feelings of being trapped by her genetic improvements, her father did create her to fit these expectations. On the other hand,. against this image, she is very much the opposite of mindless, and in her mind the opposite of the stereotype referred to in the poem (I've read the rest). Also, while she is certainly cold at the start, she does not remain so, showing a dynamic one would not expect from a lifeless statue. And lastly, I do not agree to the suggestion that perfection implies lifelessness, mostly because the term itself is a figure of speech and doesn't exist in the real world.

@jtav:
No, I didn't realize that. Possibly because the image of what he would be without the changes wrought by his obsession doesn't really appeal to me. The obsession is bad, but because of it he learned other things.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 avril 2011 - 10:53 .

[Vertigo_1]

I wish I was good enough to be able to discuss Miranda's character with you guys....

Modifié par g54, 01 mai 2011 - 01:07 .

[SuperistSquirrel]

g54 wrote...

I wish I was good enough to be able to discuss Miranda's character with you guys....

I know right? lol. I just got here, but Miranda is definitely the best romance option in ME2.

[PMC65]

xelander wrote...

Heh , fair enough
The "sweetness" was intended as more of a tongue-in-cheek thing, but I guess I'm too sleepy to convey well what I mean.

Anyway, I feel this is all about to degrade into a discussion about things which are very much in the eye of the beholder. The in-game characterization is vague enough to let us fill in details of our own and they may vary greatly from person to person. So let me just say, it's a great game and a great character and a good night to all in the appropriate timezones. )

I like to call that taking a character hostage. You know, where you add your own layers to the characters and then make it the "bible". I try and say "My Shepard" or "I think/felt" to keep the ownership on what I am saying about the character, but sometimes I forget or it gets lost in the discussion ... so I just call it a day, lower my head and walk away. 

Coming to this forum allows me to get different view points on the character ... I don't always understand how people see the character in a certain light but there are no right or wrongs to me. If it works in your game play .. then Opah! 

What's funny, is how each of my Shepards will impact the characters as well .. Am I the only one that sees the characters shift and relationships change based on the type of Shepard in play?  Or Is your Miranda a constant across the board?

Shepard Male/Paragon - Shep found her to be intelligent, sexy and insecure. May have left Ash for her but she wanted nothing to do with him after he sided with Jack. She died and he is now drinking heavily on Omega. Hell, Ash may not want him when she sees him.

Shepard Female/Renegade - Shep & Miranda are both closet "disco" junkies and love champagne. Shep discovered that whenever Miranda has had a couple glasses of the bubbly, she not only does have a sense of humor but can also do killer impersonations. Some evenings to let off steam and with champagne in hand, they blare disco in Shep's cabin and dance. Once, with the soundtrack to Saturday Night Fever blasting, Shep & Miranda tried to teach Tali the "4 corners", "bump" and "hustle". 

Shepard Female/Paragon - Shep really likes talking with Miranda about astrology, greek mythology and  feng shui .. The two also play mahjong with Samara & Dr. Chakwas every Wednesday.

Shepard Male/Renegade - He won't talk to her and refuses to do her loyalty mission. If she dies ... he gets deleted!

[Ieldra]

@g54:
Just say what you think..... as xelander has said, Miranda's writing leaves a lot of room for interpretation. As evidenced by PMC's post above.

@pmc:
So you have no game where Shepard romances Miranda? That's sad.... I cannot stay away from Miranda if I play maleShep, and I usually defuse the fight or side with Miranda. But then, I have no real Paragon Shepard.

[Prudii Aden]

I can't do pure Paragon, it just grates too much, just like pure Renegade. They're too much like Lawful Stupid or Stupid Evil. All of my Shepards are varying degrees of Paragade or Renegon.
Initially, I defused the fight, but more recently I sided with Miranda for the simple reason that Jack was trying to start something.

[MisterJB]

Prudii: Allow me to disagree with you there. I have actually tried to play a Lawful Stupid Shepard (Miranda would teach him that there are shades of grey everywhere) and it was harder than I predicted. The Pure Paragon does not act in a Lawful manner, he bends the law in order to achieve the best results.
The Pure Paragon will convince Helena Blake to disband her criminal organization and let her go, he will give Kolyat Community service, will disobey Council's orders, will threaten a racist C-Officer and will even let Shiala live and stay on Feros to help the colonists. Not very Lawful.
Sure, you can claim that the Pure Paragon's sentimentalism will eventually lead him to a bad decision like letting Balak go but is there really any situation in both games where, if you want to be Paragon, you absolutely have to act in a Lawful Stupid manner? The only one I can think of rigth now is refusing to give the Cerberus's data to the Shadow Broker.
You can create a Lawful Stupid Shepard, no doubt about it. What I'm saying is that the Paragon Path will most of the time offer you a better option.
Pure Renegade is a bit of an idiot, tough. Refusing Spectre Status or throw a guy off the window when what you want from him is information? Nice going.

Modifié par MisterJB, 01 mai 2011 - 06:52 .

[naledgeborn]

How is it that, with the exception of handing Ish over to Anto, I've taken EVERY single Paragon decision in both games and my Renegade bar is damn near full? Seriously, in my "unaltered" canon playthrough I checked my Renegade points with gibbed's and it was almost 900. Council Alive, Rachni Alive, Wrex Alive, Genophage Cure Preserved, Heretics Rewritten, Base Destroyed, ect. Only two Renegade checks I failed were with Vasir and Legion vs Tali and I passed those with Charm. This is my canon Shepard that dumped Liara for Miranda by the way. You think "lore" wise she'd like my Shepard?

[SuperistSquirrel]

MisterJB wrote...
Pure Renegade is a bit of an idiot, tough. Refusing Spectre Status or throw a guy off the window when what you want from his is information? Nice going.

Haha, pushing that guy out of the window is one of the highlights of the game for me. I look forward to it everytime. :innocent:

[naledgeborn]

SuperistSquirrel wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
Pure Renegade is a bit of an idiot, tough. Refusing Spectre Status or throw a guy off the window when what you want from his is information? Nice going.

Haha, pushing that guy out of the window is one of the highlights of the game for me. I look forward to it everytime. :innocent:

I prefer pushing him up against a cracking window. "What sound will you make when you hit the ground? Think you'll hear it before you die?" A lot better than pushing him out IMO.

[PMC65]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@g54:
Just say what you think..... as xelander has said, Miranda's writing leaves a lot of room for interpretation. As evidenced by PMC's post above.

@pmc:
So you have no game where Shepard romances Miranda? That's sad.... I cannot stay away from Miranda if I play maleShep, and I usually defuse the fight or side with Miranda. But then, I have no real Paragon Shepard.

I was hoping this latest Shep would romance her but he isn't biting. It probably sounds weird, but once the Shepard is created and the game starts ... I start to make choices based on what I think they would do. Doing the game this way I have found them make surprising choices. 

My own Main Shep, which I played as me and treated as the "real world" wasn't as surprising but the choices were harder because they were more honest, personal and less Paragon or PC than I care to admit.    

[PMC65]

naledgeborn wrote...

SuperistSquirrel wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
Pure Renegade is a bit of an idiot, tough. Refusing Spectre Status or throw a guy off the window when what you want from his is information? Nice going.

Haha, pushing that guy out of the window is one of the highlights of the game for me. I look forward to it everytime. :innocent:

I prefer pushing him up against a cracking window. "What sound will you make when you hit the ground? Think you'll hear it before you die?" A lot better than pushing him out IMO.

That's what happens if you don't push him? I gotta try that out!

[PMC65]

Prudii Aden wrote...

I can't do pure Paragon, it just grates too much, just like pure Renegade. They're too much like Lawful Stupid or Stupid Evil. All of my Shepards are varying degrees of Paragade or Renegon.
Initially, I defused the fight, but more recently I sided with Miranda for the simple reason that Jack was trying to start something.

I don't have a "pure" Shepard but I do find the characters go 70/30 approx .... So if it is 70% intimidate then that is a renegade to me. Can you even do a 100/0 in the game?

[jtav]

I'm just going to leave this here.

About Last Night
Summary: Miranda deals with the consequences of her relationship with Liara and her doubts about Cerberus. Sequel to Last Night of the World. (Miranda/Liara)

Modifié par jtav, 01 mai 2011 - 07:54 .

[Arijharn]

MisterJB wrote...
During the course of the mission, TIM betrayed that trust many times; sacrificing civilians to the Collectors, luring them into a trap, sanctioning the kidnapping of children, ordering her to kill Shepard whose only crime had been disobeying an order that she too tought should be disobeyed and I also like to believe Shepard explained to her that Cerberus purposely exposed civilians to the Dragon's Teeth.

What civvies did TIM sacrifice to the Collectors? I think Horizon was strategically brilliant (and I think Miranda being who she is would be pragmatic enough to know that a) This would be probably the one chance they'll get, and that Losses will probably not be avoided, but can be mitigated somewhat). Horizon I would imagine would squarely fall into the area where Miranda still has full trust in TIM and like it or lump it, there was no alternative to Horizon.

The one time I will agree that Miranda see's her trust in TIM dissolving would be on the trap scenario on the Collector Ship, but I think she would be pragmatic afterwards about it (although obviously being less than enthusiastic at the actual situation when she was in it, which is natural imo) and she's clearly shocked about Teltin, but to me she makes it pretty clear that she thinks the facility is rogue.

As an aside though; I don't think the notion that Cerberus exposed colonists to Dragon's Teeth to be completely settled. I'd actually like to see some sort of buildup in regards to that in ME3.