15168 réponses à ce sujet

[lolwut666]

They gotta fix her face for ME3.

Please don't get mad at me, but I think it was a mistake to mold Miranda's face after Yvonne's.

I don't think Yvonne is ugly, but her facial features are more strong than they are pretty.

They should have picked a model with softer facial features. The engine of ME2 can do this type of face better, as you can tell by looking at many of the custom FemSheps.

[Mufasa92]

g54 wrote...

I wish I was good enough to be able to discuss Miranda's character with you guys....

Hey I just got here too and the posts here are a bit
overwhelming. However think of it as a similar process to understanding a
character in a book. If you ever took advanced English classes then you will
have learned some characterization techniques. So without further ado, here's
my outlook on her.



First, the wish list:

I think not only do we wish, but almost expect her to be a dynamic character
shaped by Shepherd's actions in ME2. If she doesn't change then that's just bad
writing



Her pragmatic and morally ambiguous streak is very similar to another of my
favorite characters, Morrigan from DA:O. On top of that she is a strong woman
and any real man would want that



It may just be me, but I kinda like the fact that they made her infertile (here
comes the rage posts). Essentially it is a weakness within a perfect woman that
makes her more relatable. I know people see her perfection as one of the
biggest assets she has, ultimately love I believe comes with love of strengths
and weaknesses. I think it would be a great pivot point for the relationship
grow upon. Now that's not to say it should never be fixed, but I think you
should leave it for the epilogue.



I don't mind her being objectified as a sex object. (Then again I'm a guy and
also naturally a pervert )
But I do see her being excessively shown off. One thing I absolutely agree with
is that love scene needed more depth, it seemed just like some wild escapade.



Finally, I also hated her, but this thread made me understand her and that hate
has been turned to appreciation





Also I'm new, HEY EVERYONE 

[Vertigo_1]

Mufasa92 wrote...

g54 wrote...

I wish I was good enough to be able to discuss Miranda's character with you guys....

Post of awesome

Welcome!
Yeah I took one of those English classes long ago but I've forgotten much of it (it was for my associates degree)

Modifié par g54, 02 mai 2011 - 12:44 .

[MisterJB]

Arijharn wrote...
there was no alternative to Horizon.

Actually, there were myriads of alternatives, telling Shepard what was going to happen before everything went silent is one of them.
Attracting the Collectors to a trap? Very good idea.
Not telling Shepard about said trap until it had already been sprung and then expect him to take out the Collectors with a team of six unloyal squadmates? Not so much.
So, it seems to me that the logical conclusion is that Horizon was never about stopping the Collectors but rather about seeing if they were indeed interested in Shepard personally.
Hence, TIM sacrificed thousands of civilian just to confirm a theory. That's very heartless, something Miranda is not.
Since Miranda never stated what were her toughts were on the matter of Horizon, it's not a proven fact that she started to have some doubts about Cerberus's leadership at that point, just a possibility.
And, even if she rationalized it as necessary at the time, it is also possible that her opinion had changed by the time the Suicide Mission came around. Especially, if she speaks to Oriana, i think. 

The one time I will agree that Miranda see's her trust in TIM dissolving would be on the trap scenario on the Collector Ship, but I think she would be pragmatic afterwards about it (although obviously being less than enthusiastic at the actual situation when she was in it, which is natural imo)

I agree that she could be pragmatic about it afterwards(despite the fact I never believed keeping the truth from Shepard was necessary), even so, trust and loyalty are very important to Miranda and I think that being betrayed by TIM left a mistrust of him on her heart that never truly left and it was one of the decisive factors that led to her resign
 

and she's clearly shocked about Teltin, but to me she makes it pretty clear that she thinks the facility is rogue.

It's obvious that Teltin went well beyond what Miranda considered The Illusive Man would approve, thus they were rogue. However, at one point TIM had to approve that facility, therefore, Cerberus sanctioned the kidnapping of children, if not torture.
That is another thing that could have shaken her faith. After all, in the next conversation with Shepard, she seemed to acknowledge that Cerberus were to blame, at least somewhat, for what happened in Pragia, even if she were not.

As an aside though; I don't think the notion that Cerberus exposed colonists to Dragon's Teeth to be completely settled. I'd actually like to see some sort of buildup in regards to that in ME3.

It's not an 100% proven fact, I supose. But, taking into account the experiments performed on Toombs and the Rachni, I wouldn't put it past them.

Mufasa92 wrote...
Her pragmatic and morally ambiguous streak is very similar to another of my
favorite characters, Morrigan from DA:O.

C'mon, I love Morrigan, she's my favorite DA character but morally ambiguous she is not. She approves of letting a child be possessed by a Demon for no good reason at all.

One thing I absolutely agree with
is that love scene needed more depth, it seemed just like some wild escapade.

I disagree. Whatever depth the romance scene nedeed is either shown in their body language; for example, the way their faces touch before Shepard turns Miranda to him is very tender and shows just how much they care for each other; the room Miranda chose; the only place on the Normandy where they could have some privacy; or had already happened during the "Love" conversation.
Would it have felt less like "some wilds escapade" had it happened in her quarters? Where The Illusive Man could watch?
The videotape would fund Cerberus's projects for years to come.

Modifié par MisterJB, 02 mai 2011 - 01:52 .

[MisterJB]

sorry for the double post.

Modifié par MisterJB, 02 mai 2011 - 01:22 .

[jtav]

The love scene is terrible. It manages to be less erotic and less tasteful than the one in ME1. The tone is completely inappropriate for the place in the story. It's playful and fun when it should be more serious. The location is associated with three people Tali the rival and the two engineers that have been kidnapped. What should have happened is this: During the last romance convo, Miranda and Shepard agree now isn't the time for a relationship (see "Damn it--you're right"). Pre-SM, Miranda calls Shepard to her room and confesses she doesn't want to wait after all. "Promise" scene occurs here. Miranda smiles weakly, asks him what they're waiting for and pushes him onto the bed. Fade to black.

[Mufasa92]

I don't think Morrigan actually approves of demonic possession of a child. The problem with DA:O was that the game gave you absolutely no reason or reward for being an evil douche bag. The only reason I could find was getting golems (who suck), the reaver specialization (sucks), and so Bioware decided to make Morrigan approve all the evil decisions. However if you strictly look at the dialogue, Morrigan is more pragmatic than anything and therefore is more like Miranda than you think. The Morrigan approves +10 is quite irrelevant story wise.

[Arijharn]

MisterJB wrote...
Actually, there were myriads of alternatives, telling Shepard what was going to happen before everything went silent is one of them.

Remember that up to Horizon TIM was leading Shephard into making his/her own opinion on whether the Reapers were involved with the Collector's. Also, TIM did tell Shephard what was happening in regards to Horizon. I think you're confusing the issue between the Collector Ship and the planet Horizon. 

MisterJB wrote...
Not telling Shepard about said trap until it had already been sprung and then expect him to take out the Collectors with a team of six unloyal squadmates? Not so much.

Their 'loyalty' up to Horizon (and technically speaking at any time) is irrelevant, they would want to live surely, and would want to live regardless of their personal feelings on Shephard. The Collector Ship issue is slightly more contentious I suppose, but at the end of the day I don't think it really matters either. For all his flak in saying that Shephard needed to know whether the Turian's broadcast signal was fake or not, I'm personally not sure whether he (or she) did, because it could have affected their behaviour on the ship for all we know, especially someone like Jack.

I would think that Miranda wouldn't accept this as she was 'suffering' at the decision, but afterwards she may agree. Or she may not.  I think that it would be relatively 'petty' if she didn't though, considering how much trust and faith she has in the cause (aka what Cerberus supposedly represents). If she distrusts TIM and Cerberus after this, then I think she's slinking dangerously close to hypocrisy (and I say that simply because I doubt she could ever keep her hands clean given her expertise (aka; pretty much anything she has a mind to) and involvement with Cerberus for how long she has been. Lets look at Lazarus for a second, technologically a marvel, rivalling if not exceeding the scientific scope of the Genophage... but, is it ethical to raise someone from the dead?)

MisterJB wrote...
So, it seems to me that the logical conclusion is that Horizon was never about stopping the Collectors but rather about seeing if they were indeed interested in Shepard personally.
Hence, TIM sacrificed thousands of civilian just to confirm a theory. That's very heartless, something Miranda is not.

Bit of both to be honest I think. Obviously they wanted to stop the attacks, but I'm sure they were interested in finding out whether Shephard had more influence than what would initially be expected (remember; Horizon was the place that confirmed the connection between the Reapers and the Collectors, before this though it was all just guesswork -- unless TIM knew otherwise, but if so TIM needed Shephard to see it, not just accept his word at face value (and would you? Be honest because I'm guessing most wouldn't.)

People were going to be lost either way. More would be lost if Horizon wasn't supplied as the target of choice (aka; the VS and Shephard, and why? Because Shephard stopped the attack half way). If no target was selected, the Collector's could have chosen a target that had more people there and they still wouldn't be any closer to stopping the Collector's. Be sensible.

MisterJB wrote...
Especially, if she speaks to Oriana, i think. 

Maybe Oriana will filter things through a glass that Miranda didn't know about before, who knows (ME3?). I doubt Miranda will completely change though; especially since there was an option that Miranda not speak to her and things still had to remain coherent as part of the overall story -- therefore, I doubt Oriana will change her overmuch (if at all).

MisterJB wrote...
I agree that she could be pragmatic about it afterwards(despite the fact I never believed keeping the truth from Shepard was necessary), even so, trust and loyalty are very important to Miranda and I think that being betrayed by TIM left a mistrust of him on her heart that never truly left and it was one of the decisive factors that led to her resign

People obviously act differently when they know of certain things. The principles of the mission remain unchanged and I think it's safe to assume that people are as observant of the situation (aka; because it's unknown how many if any Collector's are still alive etc, etc) as ever. In other words; walk softly and carry a big gun. That's what I think TIM means when he said: 'could of tipped them off in any number of ways.' The reason why TIM probably didn't tell Cmdr. Shephard is to ensure that Shephard would act appropriately in the situation regardless, and to not force the hand of the Collectors (via some underhanded trick -- if anybody let the cat out the bag, who knows what could have happened?). Basically, I think it came down to compartmentalization of the situation as well, if the Collector's learnt that their playback of the Turian distress signal was insufficient, then they could become more suspicious down the line and close out any possible options in terms of Collector operations.

Shephard is important, but he may not necessarily be the only operation Cerberus has in dealing with the Collectors etc.
 

MisterJB wrote...
It's obvious that Teltin went well beyond what Miranda considered The Illusive Man would approve, thus they were rogue. However, at one point TIM had to approve that facility, therefore, Cerberus sanctioned the kidnapping of children, if not torture.
That is another thing that could have shaken her faith. After all, in the next conversation with Shepard, she seemed to acknowledge that Cerberus were to blame, at least somewhat, for what happened in Pragia, even if she were not.

Maybe. But we don't know just to what extent the rogue facility went in their rogueness (if that makes sense). Remember that some children didn't come as 'kidnapping victims' for example. I accept that Miranda wouldn't and shouldn't take responsibility for those operations, but it's pretty clear that the operation wasn't Cerberus either for the same reason.

MisterJB wrote...
It's not an 100% proven fact, I supose. But, taking into account the experiments performed on Toombs and the Rachni, I wouldn't put it past them.

I don't agree that Toombs was in the position to know the full truth while he was incarcerated and to be trusted as a reliable source as that to be honest (simply because he was the subject). It's clear that he was traumatized but that's it. For all we know Cerberus was trying to inject serum's that could neutralize the effects of the acid within his veins or whatever (which is somewhat of a miracle that he survived as long as he did... it being acid inside him) but they were having an 'allergic' shock for want of a better word that was equally if not more painful.

As to the Rachni, personally I don't have ethical concerns with it to much. If Miranda said that the experiments were on going I probably wouldn't have so much as shrugged. Rachni Queen, different story, but not Rachni soldiers or whatever. I also didn't have ethical concerns about the Thorian Creeper experiments or even Husks.

[Sigyn2011]

jtav wrote...

The love scene is terrible. It manages to be less erotic and less tasteful than the one in ME1. The tone is completely inappropriate for the place in the story. It's playful and fun when it should be more serious. The location is associated with three people Tali the rival and the two engineers that have been kidnapped. What should have happened is this: During the last romance convo, Miranda and Shepard agree now isn't the time for a relationship (see "Damn it--you're right"). Pre-SM, Miranda calls Shepard to her room and confesses she doesn't want to wait after all. "Promise" scene occurs here. Miranda smiles weakly, asks him what they're waiting for and pushes him onto the bed. Fade to black.

Yes, it could've used some work.  Perhaps they ran out of time.  Location, hmm...considering Miranda's personality (at least for the first time)...I think it works.  She wants (A) everyone else that is able to see the two of them, ( possible privacy from Cerberus bugs, © and ahem...sensory stimulus.  Besides, it made a good joke.  Here's hoping that they do better in the 3rd game.  What I would've liked but probably would've been difficult was that they had different music for everyone's romantic scene.  Although I liked that track, they could have at least differentiated the scores.  For instance, if you stayed true to your ME1 romance, then you would've heard that 'reflections' track.  If you didn't, then you'd get something else completely different.  And it could've made a cheap scene like that even more humorous.  I'm sure many of us have found far more appropriate songs.

[naledgeborn]

jtav wrote...

The love scene is terrible. It manages to be less erotic and less tasteful than the one in ME1. The tone is completely inappropriate for the place in the story. It's playful and fun when it should be more serious. The location is associated with three people Tali the rival and the two engineers that have been kidnapped. What should have happened is this: During the last romance convo, Miranda and Shepard agree now isn't the time for a relationship (see "Damn it--you're right"). Pre-SM, Miranda calls Shepard to her room and confesses she doesn't want to wait after all. "Promise" scene occurs here. Miranda smiles weakly, asks him what they're waiting for and pushes him onto the bed. Fade to black.

This post is on point. 

[Lenimph]

 For my fellow chrome users

[Space Sweeper]

Amazing work, Lenimph! Thank you!

[Lenimph]

Oi make sure you downloaded the latest version. Something was wrong with the last one I uploaded and it had her centered instead of towards to the right and her face got eaten on bigger screens.

Edit: Had to fix it again 
Should be ok now.

Modifié par Lenimph, 02 mai 2011 - 07:31 .

[Arijharn]

I think it's good too! But now I want to find out what the chrome tab was headed that you blacked out

[TomY90]

lolwut666 wrote...

They gotta fix her face for ME3.

Please don't get mad at me, but I think it was a mistake to mold Miranda's face after Yvonne's.

I don't think Yvonne is ugly, but her facial features are more strong than they are pretty.

They should have picked a model with softer facial features. The engine of ME2 can do this type of face better, as you can tell by looking at many of the custom FemSheps.

I disagree with you on this one yvonne facial features actual suits the character because of her being a strong character and if you have an actress as talented and attractive as yvonne might as well use it.

(i know what your on about the strong facial features but she does get in the top 100 most attractive women in the US)

[lolwut666]

TomY90 wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

They gotta fix her face for ME3.

Please don't get mad at me, but I think it was a mistake to mold Miranda's face after Yvonne's.

I don't think Yvonne is ugly, but her facial features are more strong than they are pretty.

They should have picked a model with softer facial features. The engine of ME2 can do this type of face better, as you can tell by looking at many of the custom FemSheps.

I disagree with you on this one yvonne facial features actual suits the character because of her being a strong character and if you have an actress as talented and attractive as yvonne might as well use it.

(i know what your on about the strong facial features but she does get in the top 100 most attractive women in the US)

Good point.

I think I'm just a little hung up on the fact that she is not attractive to me, even though she is supposed to be the "perfect woman".

[TomY90]

lolwut666 wrote...

TomY90 wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

They gotta fix her face for ME3.

Please don't get mad at me, but I think it was a mistake to mold Miranda's face after Yvonne's.

I don't think Yvonne is ugly, but her facial features are more strong than they are pretty.

They should have picked a model with softer facial features. The engine of ME2 can do this type of face better, as you can tell by looking at many of the custom FemSheps.

I disagree with you on this one yvonne facial features actual suits the character because of her being a strong character and if you have an actress as talented and attractive as yvonne might as well use it.

(i know what your on about the strong facial features but she does get in the top 100 most attractive women in the US)

Good point.

I think I'm just a little hung up on the fact that she is not attractive to me, even though she is supposed to be the "perfect woman".

she is meant to be perfect but I think they mean more in terms of her body, intelligence and the biotics.

her face is one of those that some really like or some like you do not like thats is why the body is so much different to other characters and why she wears what she does to make her look more perfect because they know some people will not consider the face as beautiful as other people

[Ieldra]

Mufasa92 wrote...

g54 wrote...
I wish I was good enough to be able to discuss Miranda's character with you guys....

Hey I just got here too and the posts here are a bit overwhelming. However think of it as a similar process to understanding a character in a book. If you ever took advanced English classes then you will have learned some characterization techniques.

I must say it is very nice to see some new people around who like Miranda. As for overwhelming - I wrote my first post about Miranda in one of the old threads in Feb 2011, and a handful of others are here as long, so we've put a lot of thought into Miranda. We're not better at character analysis, we simply have a lot more experience.

I think not only do we wish, but almost expect her to be a dynamic character shaped by Shepherd's actions in ME2. If she doesn't change then that's just bad writing

While I agree that Miranda should have some character development, I think the extent to which Shepard shapes her should be very limited and most specifically not include personality aspects. I would like her to keep her moral ambiguity and pragmatism, for instance. Without it she would not be Miranda Lawson anymore. Topics with possible character development are her coming to terms with her origins, her views about Cerberus and her infertiliy.

It may just be me, but I kinda like the fact that they made her infertile (here comes the rage posts). Essentially it is a weakness within a perfect woman that makes her more relatable. I know people see her perfection as one of the biggest assets she has, ultimately love I believe comes with love of strengths and weaknesses. I think it would be a great pivot point for the relationship grow upon. Now that's not to say it should never be fixed, but I think you should leave it for the epilogue.

I do not subscribe to the school of thought that only by having permanent biological flaws and medical conditions an otherwise strong character becomes relatable. Her life has left enough mental scars as it is, and that most people can't relate to them is their fault, not hers. I happen to admire someone who's in some ways better than I could ever be in RL, someone I only can relate to through a protagonist who's also larger-than-life, and I thoroughly despise the tendency to load strong and uniquely talented characters with flaws until they are - on average - like everyone else. That's like playing a tabletop RPG and force everyone to play a character with a point balance of zero.

Having said that, I agree the solution to her infertility should be a part of the epilogue, not of the main game. In a post some time ago, I'd like to have a little character interaction in the epilogue, like in DAO, where the infertility comes up for a Shepard who romances Miranda and he gets to say one of these options:

Option 1: I never wanted children anyway, and I can't see you as a mother.
Option 2: You brought me back from the dead. Curing you shouldn't be a big problem now that we've got the time.
Option 3: We'll have to live with it - but humanity owes you for that sacrifice, and I won't let them forget it.

Implied in the last option is that Miranda's condition was a progressive one and that she could have had children had her job not been so important for humanity's survival.

I don't mind her being objectified as a sex object. (Then again I'm a guy and also naturally a pervert )
But I do see her being excessively shown off. One thing I absolutely agree with is that love scene needed more depth, it seemed just like some wild escapade.

Most of us here like that she's sexy - and unabashedly sexual - and looks it at times. What we mind is the rather crude way the game pushes that fact into our faces, as in those two infamous ass shots, and the glaring inconsistency between her job, which would often include being inconspicuous and on Shepard's mission includes fighting, and her outfit which draws eyes everywhere and looks as if it was painted on her skin in certain parts. A sexy outfit (but stylishly sexy please) on the Normandy, and a practical one on missions, that's what I want for ME3. It needn't be heavy armor, but it should look as if could protect at least a little from natural hazards - we wouldn't want her perfect skin to to marred, would we? Of course, you could say that bullets are a natural hazard on Shepard's missions, LOL. Also, no exposed skin in space.

Finally, I also hated her, but this thread made me understand her and that hate has been turned to appreciation

Just for curiosity's sake - why did you not like her?

Also I'm new, HEY EVERYONE

Welcome! As I said, it's nice seeing new people after all that time. Did you come to play ME2 only recently or are you a long-time-player who just found this thread?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 02 mai 2011 - 11:04 .

[Arijharn]

I'm hoping I can buy a good whip to crack at Elyvern so she can hurry up and get Chapter 14 out. I mean, suspense and all is almost killing me.

[Ieldra]

Arijharn wrote...
I'm hoping I can buy a good whip to crack at Elyvern so she can hurry up and get Chapter 14 out. I mean, suspense and all is almost killing me.

I think she'll still publish in the original 15-20K-word-sized chunks, only segmented into shorter chapters. In my estimation It will be a few weeks before chapters 14-18 or so.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 02 mai 2011 - 12:32 .

[naledgeborn]

Ieldra2 wrote...
While I agree that Miranda should have some character development, I think the extent to which Shepard shapes her should be very limited and most specifically not include personality aspects. I would like her to keep her moral ambiguity and pragmatism, for instance. Without it she would not be Miranda Lawson anymore. Topics with possible character development are her coming to terms with her origins, her views about Cerberus and her infertiliy.

What about what Liara says after LotSB?

She was so cold when I first met her. Completely focused on her duty....... She has. Believe me. You have no idea how much you've changed her....

The writers were pretty clear there that Shepard did have a strong effect on her. What I think the writers are going for (CRPG mechanics included) is that ultimately her LM decision will be the catalyst in her character development. If she spoke to Oriana she'll be less pragmatic and be warmer than she's used to being. Other wise she'll be more or less the same Miranda if Oriana doesn't know about her exisitence. Much like pushing Garrus towards Paragon/Renegade in ME1 & 2 respectivley.  

[Venix117]

I want Miranda as a LI and team mate in ME 3!

[Ieldra]

naledgeborn wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
While I agree that Miranda should have some character development, I think the extent to which Shepard shapes her should be very limited and most specifically not include personality aspects. I would like her to keep her moral ambiguity and pragmatism, for instance. Without it she would not be Miranda Lawson anymore. Topics with possible character development are her coming to terms with her origins, her views about Cerberus and her infertiliy.

What about what Liara says after LotSB?

She was so cold when I first met her. Completely focused on her duty....... She has. Believe me. You have no idea how much you've changed her....

The writers were pretty clear there that Shepard did have a strong effect on her. What I think the writers are going for (CRPG mechanics included) is that ultimately her LM decision will be the catalyst in her character development. If she spoke to Oriana she'll be less pragmatic and be warmer than she's used to being. Other wise she'll be more or less the same Miranda if Oriana doesn't know about her exisitence. Much like pushing Garrus towards Paragon/Renegade in ME1 & 2 respectivley. 

Don't remind me. You have no idea how much I hate that quote. I don't want an LI I can change to my specifications. I want one with a strength of personality to match my protagonist. This quote makes me fear how they'll write Miranda in ME3 more than anything else. I like her LM and always do it, but Miranda and Oriana - that's a personal thing where being more emotional is acceptable. In her professional capacity Miranda should retain her pragmatism. Most definitely she should not let her romance with Shepard cloud her judgment about things not pertaining to the romance.

[jtav]

Can I just go on record with how much I hate the LOTSB scene? I do fear that it is indeed an indicator of future character development. In which case I'm dropping her like a hot rock. They did a great job writing romances where the woman felt like a good partner for Shepard with Ash and LOTSB Liara. But it's very easy for me to see Miranda's strength as illusory. I choose not to. That she is becoming more personally warm, but that this wasn't a woman who needed to be saved emotionally by Shepard and who can offer him nothing in return.

Er, what Ieldra said. I finally have a Shepard I like. She has to be worthy of him just as much as he is of her. Liara can maintain that balance. I want Miranda to do it to.

Modifié par jtav, 02 mai 2011 - 02:04 .

[MisterJB]

Ieldra: I wouldn't worry about it. The way I'm reading it, that quote doesn't imply that Miranda will suddenly become less pragmatic, only that she will now have a life beyond her work.