15168 réponses à ce sujet

[jtav]

Let's hope I'm paranoid. Jack fills the "emotionally rescued by the hero role much better. But Miranda does have something of the Bond girl about her.

[naledgeborn]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Don't remind me. You have no idea how much I hate that quote. I don't want an LI I can change to my specifications. I want one with a strength of personality to match my protagonist. This quote makes me fear how they'll write Miranda in ME3 more than anything else. I like her LM and always do it, but Miranda and Oriana - that's a personal thing where being more emotional is acceptable. In her professional capacity Miranda should retain her pragmatism. Most definitely she should not let her romance with Shepard cloud her judgment about things not pertaining to the romance.

Agreed. I want her exterior to remain unchanged. I want her to keep her "b*tch shield", as I like to call it, up. But in one on one conversations with Shepard I woundn't mind some warmer, almost playful banter if the situation is acceptable. Some teasing from both sides would be nice. She'd be the only one (other than Ashley) who'd dish it out to Shepard without taking it personally. I know she hides her vulnerability (exsitential issues) but being able to embrace them in front of Shepard would be nice change of pace without sacrificing her professionalism.   

[enayasoul]

naledgeborn wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Don't remind me. You have no idea how much I hate that quote. I don't want an LI I can change to my specifications. I want one with a strength of personality to match my protagonist. This quote makes me fear how they'll write Miranda in ME3 more than anything else. I like her LM and always do it, but Miranda and Oriana - that's a personal thing where being more emotional is acceptable. In her professional capacity Miranda should retain her pragmatism. Most definitely she should not let her romance with Shepard cloud her judgment about things not pertaining to the romance.

Agreed. I want her exterior to remain unchanged. I want her to keep her "b*tch shield", as I like to call it, up. But in one on one conversations with Shepard I woundn't mind some warmer, almost playful banter if the situation is acceptable. Some teasing from both sides would be nice. She'd be the only one (other than Ashley) who'd dish it out to Shepard without taking it personally. I know she hides her vulnerability (exsitential issues) but being able to embrace them in front of Shepard would be nice change of pace without sacrificing her professionalism.   

I actually liked what Liara said in LOTSB, I saw it as showing Miranda having grown in character... (not cold and calculated, heartless) and not necessarily because of Shepard's influence... it might be... but I think it's a positive sign of growth in my eyes but maybe that's just my opinion. 

I didn't even have a problem with the engine scene either.  I thought there were tender moments between them both... caring about each other by the touching of their faces.  She seemed fun and adventurous...  Sure, they could have had it done earlier in the romance but it was fine.  I didn't really put that much emphasis on it like you all have. Missing crew etc.  It was a fun scene.   But I'll respect everyone's opinion on what they feel about it.

I do agree with the above statement.  I want to see some playful banter between Shepard and Miranda.  Miranda says she isn't funny... but I have a feeling she might be indeed if given the opportunity.  Teasing is always good.    (They are that way in my fic but they're also very dominate in their alpha qualities with each other.)    

Modifié par enayasoul, 02 mai 2011 - 03:13 .

[enayasoul]

Found this interesting when looking up the meaning of names.

Miranda \\m(i)-ran-da, mir(a)-nda\\ as a girl's name is pronounced mer-ANN-dah. It is of Latin origin, and the meaning of Miranda is "worthy of admiration". In Shakespeare's "The Tempest", Miranda is an innocent girl raised and educated on an isolated island by her magician father. Actress Miranda Richardson.

[Sigyn2011]

naledgeborn wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Don't remind me. You have no idea how much I hate that quote. I don't want an LI I can change to my specifications. I want one with a strength of personality to match my protagonist. This quote makes me fear how they'll write Miranda in ME3 more than anything else. I like her LM and always do it, but Miranda and Oriana - that's a personal thing where being more emotional is acceptable. In her professional capacity Miranda should retain her pragmatism. Most definitely she should not let her romance with Shepard cloud her judgment about things not pertaining to the romance.

Agreed. I want her exterior to remain unchanged. I want her to keep her "b*tch shield", as I like to call it, up. But in one on one conversations with Shepard I woundn't mind some warmer, almost playful banter if the situation is acceptable. Some teasing from both sides would be nice. She'd be the only one (other than Ashley) who'd dish it out to Shepard without taking it personally. I know she hides her vulnerability (exsitential issues) but being able to embrace them in front of Shepard would be nice change of pace without sacrificing her professionalism.   

What if Shepard suddenly went missing?  Do you think she'd lose her cool?  Let's say, hypothetically speaking, that somehow he/she were somehow kidnapped?  I guess one could say that it would depend upon the circumstances in which he went missing.  I also want her to keep the same walls up when someone outside of her heart tries to make an exchange with her.  She could be pretty witty if she actually wanted to be, I just think that up until her loyalty mission in ME2 that she had no reason to do so.

[MisterJB]

Sigyn2011: I agree that it would depend on the circunstances. If her father somehow got to Shepard, I think that Miranda would drop everything to save him, despite knowying it would be a trap.
However, if Shepard went missing inside Reaper-controlled space while she was already working on some project to help them win the War, I think she would try to use her old contacts or maybe just warn some of Shepard's influential friends, Admiral Hackett, Liara, etc, and hope they would mount a rescue operation.

Modifié par MisterJB, 02 mai 2011 - 05:15 .

[Lenimph]

Arijharn wrote...

I think it's good too! But now I want to find out what the chrome tab was headed that you blacked out

Tis my schools website. I don't want stalkers 

[MisterJB]

[quote] Arijharn wrote...

Remember that up to Horizon TIM was leading Shephard into making his/her own opinion on whether the Reapers were involved with the Collector's. Also, TIM did tell Shephard what was happening in regards to Horizon. I think you're confusing the issue between the Collector Ship and the planet Horizon.[/quote]

No, I'm not. TIM did tell Shepard what was happening in Horizon, however, he only did so after the Colony had went silent when he could have done so many things to prevent the loss of human life.
I'm going to approach this issue later in this post.





[quote]Their 'loyalty' up to Horizon (and technically speaking at any time) is irrelevant, they would want to live surely, and would want to live regardless of their personal feelings on Shephard.[/quote]
True but, in the end, wanting to live amounts to real little. Wanting to live could lead a squadmate to run for his/her life and screw the mission. What we need is the will to die for the mission and if we want a group of people like the ones Shepard recruited to act as a cohesive military unit, that requires loyalty and comradeship.

[quote]The Collector Ship issue is slightly more contentious I suppose, but at the end of the day I don't think it really matters either. For all his flak in saying that Shephard needed to know whether the Turian's broadcast signal was fake or not, I'm personally not sure whether he (or she) did, because it could have affected their behaviour on the ship for all we know, especially someone like Jack.
[/quote]
I was actually referring to sending Shepard & co to Horizon but anyway, Shepard is not an idiot, he wouldn't go in there guns blazing. And if we are worried about the team, then just take Miranda and Thane with you.





[quote]I would think that Miranda wouldn't accept this as she was 'suffering' at the decision, but afterwards she may agree. [/quote]
Miranda could agree but I doubt she would ever completely trust TIM again.





[quote]I think that it would be relatively 'petty' if she didn't though, considering how much trust and faith she has in the cause (aka what Cerberus supposedly represents). [/quote]
You can be fully devoted to the Cerberus’s cause, protecting and advancing humanity, and still have doubts about The Illusive Man.





[quote]If she distrusts TIM and Cerberus after this, then I think she's slinking dangerously close to hypocrisy (and I say that simply because I doubt she could ever keep her hands clean given her expertise (aka; pretty much anything she has a mind to) and involvement with Cerberus for how long she has been. [/quote]
The only projects we know for certain she was involved in were protecting the Citadel from a bio weapon and the Lazarus Project, none of which are ethically ambiguous.
Matter of fact is, we just don’t know what Miranda did for Cerberus before Shepard’s death and what is her position regarding the sacrifice of civilians. What we do know is that she expressed regret, sadness and even anger at the deaths of the Lazarus personnel. So, I don’t think she would agree with TIM sending his own people into a trap.







[quote]Let’s look at Lazarus for a second, technologically a marvel, rivalling if not exceeding the scientific scope of the Genophage... but, is it ethical to raise someone from the dead?) [/quote]
That’s very debatable. I would say that it is medical advancement, not different from DaVinci opening corpses to see what’s inside. Next stop, achieving Asari lifespan, please.
We can at least agree that raising a hero from the dead while he is still needed is nowhere near as questionable as sacrificing civilians and sending one’s own soldiers, people who are supposed to trust their leaders, to death traps, right?


[quote]
(and would you? Be honest because I'm guessing most wouldn't.) [/quote]
To be honest, it wouldn’t matter to me. Working with the Reapers or not, the Collectors were kidnapping humans and I would work with Cerberus if I had to in order to stop them.





[quote]People were going to be lost either way. More would be lost if Horizon wasn't supplied as the target of choice (aka; the VS and Shephard, and why? Because Shephard stopped the attack half way). If no target was selected, the Collector's could have chosen a target that had more people there and they still wouldn't be any closer to stopping the Collector's. Be sensible. [/quote]
I am reasonable. Had I been in TIM’s shoes, I would have done the same thing. However, I would have also taken precautions to minimize civilian casualties.
Option 1) Warn Shepard about what was going to happen, tell him I intended to attract the Collectors to a trap and have him stand ready near Horizon, possible thanks to the Normandy’s stealth systems, for when the Collectors show up.
Option 2) Warn Shepard and have him convince Kaidan (I’m saying Kaidan because I think Ashley would be too damn unreasonable) to work with Cerberus just this once. Then Shepard would already be ground side when the Collectors showed up and maybe I could even send some Cerberus’s commandos to reinforce him.
In no way would I keep information from Shepard and only warn him after the colony had already gone silent. He is my greatest asset, after all.





[quote]Maybe. But we don't know just to what extent the rogue facility went in their rogueness (if that makes sense). Remember that some children didn't come as 'kidnapping victims' for example. I accept that Miranda wouldn't and shouldn't take responsibility for those operations, but it's pretty clear that the operation wasn't Cerberus either for the same reason. [/quote]
At some point, that was a Cerberus operation, even if it is hard to tell at which point it went rogue and what exactly they were keeping from TIM. If we have doubts about it, I’m sure Miranda would have them as well. Again, I think this conversation is very important.
Shepard: What was Cerberus trying to prove by experiment on children like Jack?
Miranda: A mistake. No question. Not mine.
Despite what Miranda says when Jack demands justifications, when it’s Shepard who asks, she does not deny Cerberus was involved.





[quote]For all we know Cerberus was trying to inject serum's that could neutralize the effects of the acid within his veins or whatever (which is somewhat of a miracle that he survived as long as he did... it being acid inside him) but they were having an 'allergic' shock for want of a better word that was equally if not more painful. [/quote]
It’s possible, I suppose. I still don’t buy it, tough.





[quote]I also didn't have ethical concerns about the Thorian Creeper experiments or even Husks. [/quote]
I don’t have ethical concerns regarding experiments with the Creepers and Husks as long as they were not purposely turned into such by Cerberus.
I do have some concerns when it comes to the Rachni, tough. We just don’t know how much sentience there is on an average worker. Honestly, I was happy when Miranda said they stopped the experiments when they realized their sentience. If it’s true, this is very well another thing TIM could have kept from Miranda.

Modifié par MisterJB, 02 mai 2011 - 11:54 .

[Sigyn2011]

MisterJB wrote...

Sigyn2011: I agree that it would depend on the circunstances. If her father somehow got to Shepard, I think that Miranda would drop everything to save him, despite knowying it would be a trap.
However, if Shepard went missing inside Reaper-controlled space while she was already working on some project to help them win the War, I think she would try to use her old contacts or maybe just warn some of Shepard's influential friends, Admiral Hackett, Liara, etc, and hope they would mount a rescue operation.

What if TIM got a hold of Shepard?  If he destroyed the Collector base, she or he'd obviously have broken the Cerberus treaty.  Still think she'd let anyone else handle it?

[Mufasa92]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Mufasa92 wrote...

g54 wrote...
I wish I was good enough to be able to discuss Miranda's character with you guys....

Hey I just got here too and the posts here are a bit overwhelming. However think of it as a similar process to understanding a character in a book. If you ever took advanced English classes then you will have learned some characterization techniques.

I must say it is very nice to see some new people around who like Miranda. As for overwhelming - I wrote my first post about Miranda in one of the old threads in Feb 2011, and a handful of others are here as long, so we've put a lot of thought into Miranda. We're not better at character analysis, we simply have a lot more experience.

I think not only do we wish, but almost expect her to be a dynamic character shaped by Shepherd's actions in ME2. If she doesn't change then that's just bad writing

While I agree that Miranda should have some character development, I think the extent to which Shepard shapes her should be very limited and most specifically not include personality aspects. I would like her to keep her moral ambiguity and pragmatism, for instance. Without it she would not be Miranda Lawson anymore. Topics with possible character development are her coming to terms with her origins, her views about Cerberus and her infertiliy.

It may just be me, but I kinda like the fact that they made her infertile (here comes the rage posts). Essentially it is a weakness within a perfect woman that makes her more relatable. I know people see her perfection as one of the biggest assets she has, ultimately love I believe comes with love of strengths and weaknesses. I think it would be a great pivot point for the relationship grow upon. Now that's not to say it should never be fixed, but I think you should leave it for the epilogue.

I do not subscribe to the school of thought that only by having permanent biological flaws and medical conditions an otherwise strong character becomes relatable. Her life has left enough mental scars as it is, and that most people can't relate to them is their fault, not hers. I happen to admire someone who's in some ways better than I could ever be in RL, someone I only can relate to through a protagonist who's also larger-than-life, and I thoroughly despise the tendency to load strong and uniquely talented characters with flaws until they are - on average - like everyone else. That's like playing a tabletop RPG and force everyone to play a character with a point balance of zero.

Having said that, I agree the solution to her infertility should be a part of the epilogue, not of the main game. In a post some time ago, I'd like to have a little character interaction in the epilogue, like in DAO, where the infertility comes up for a Shepard who romances Miranda and he gets to say one of these options:

Option 1: I never wanted children anyway, and I can't see you as a mother.
Option 2: You brought me back from the dead. Curing you shouldn't be a big problem now that we've got the time.
Option 3: We'll have to live with it - but humanity owes you for that sacrifice, and I won't let them forget it.

Implied in the last option is that Miranda's condition was a progressive one and that she could have had children had her job not been so important for humanity's survival.

I don't mind her being objectified as a sex object. (Then again I'm a guy and also naturally a pervert )
But I do see her being excessively shown off. One thing I absolutely agree with is that love scene needed more depth, it seemed just like some wild escapade.

Most of us here like that she's sexy - and unabashedly sexual - and looks it at times. What we mind is the rather crude way the game pushes that fact into our faces, as in those two infamous ass shots, and the glaring inconsistency between her job, which would often include being inconspicuous and on Shepard's mission includes fighting, and her outfit which draws eyes everywhere and looks as if it was painted on her skin in certain parts. A sexy outfit (but stylishly sexy please) on the Normandy, and a practical one on missions, that's what I want for ME3. It needn't be heavy armor, but it should look as if could protect at least a little from natural hazards - we wouldn't want her perfect skin to to marred, would we? Of course, you could say that bullets are a natural hazard on Shepard's missions, LOL. Also, no exposed skin in space.

Finally, I also hated her, but this thread made me understand her and that hate has been turned to appreciation

Just for curiosity's sake - why did you not like her?

Also I'm new, HEY EVERYONE

Welcome! As I said, it's nice seeing new people after all that time. Did you come to play ME2 only recently or are you a long-time-player who just found this thread?

Sorry for quoting the whole thing, editing it was a pain.
So why did I not like her first? Probably a gut reaction to the love scene, everything else about her was awesome but since that's one of the last things I remember it kinda stuck with me. However her pretty much saying FU to TIM at the collecter base was pretty awesome.

Also I just recently played ME2 on the PS3. I've only finished it once through as a Paragon, soldier, Miranda-lover. So I'm not as familiar with the other characters yet. Once I play the games a couple times more then I'll move on to some of the other threads.

[MisterJB]

Sigyn2011 wrote...
What if TIM got a hold of Shepard?  If he destroyed the Collector base, she or he'd obviously have broken the Cerberus treaty.  Still think she'd let anyone else handle it?

I have already speculated on this thread that Miranda's plotline in ME3 will mostly involve taking down Cerberus. So, I could definitively see Miranda saving Shepard in ME3.
However, for argument's sake, let's pretend that Miranda was on the Citadel/Arcturus Station/Whatever when terrible news arrive, Shepard has been captured by Cerberus. I think it is only logical for Miranda to be the leader of any group that migth be sent to rescue him.
If the Alliance doesn't want to spend resources searching for Shepard or have simply forsaken him completely due to the events of "Arrival", it is my belief that Miranda would try to form her own team to rescue him.

Modifié par MisterJB, 03 mai 2011 - 12:08 .

[Arijharn]

Lenimph wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

I think it's good too! But now I want to find out what the chrome tab was headed that you blacked out

Tis my schools website. I don't want stalkers 

Damn, that's kinda disappointing in a way, I had a whole porn zing thing lined up but alas

[Arijharn]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...
No, I'm not. TIM did tell Shepard what was happening in Horizon, however, he only did so after the Colony had went silent when he could have done so many things to prevent the loss of human life.
I'm going to approach this issue later in this post.
[/quote]
But how? Any tip off to try and save some citizens beforehand could tip off the Collector's that Horizon is going to be a trap, and thus necessitate a 'change of venue.' No matter my disagreements with Cerberus, in the end he did the right thing here to minimize the losses (which would be unavoidable eitherway). Shephard is a highly trained individual, a certain amount of faith is given to our hero to accomplish the mission. 

[quote]MisterJB wrote...
Miranda could agree but I doubt she would ever completely trust TIM again.
[/quote]
True, honestly though considering The Illusive Man and what he represents, I wouldn't completely trust him at all anyway. It's kinda hard for me to find sympathy for those people who do. In a nutshell, the only extent I have in trust of the Illusive Man is the trust in him to help stop the Reapers and thats it. I do find value in some if not most of Cerberus' experiments however, and very few do I outright reject.

I don't think Miranda is too stupid to realise that Cerberus has done 'bad things' though, and judging from the fact that she's been with the 'company' for probably like 19 years(?) (and new about it before even this) I find it really hard to believe that she has never been involved with more than just the Batarian attack on the Council and Lazarus. It defies belief in my opinion, given that she's one of the few who not only regularly converses with the Illusive Man, but also physically is in his presence (and all the 'security vetting' such a proximity must entail).

[quote]MisterJB wrote...
You can be fully devoted to the Cerberus’s cause, protecting and advancing humanity, and still have doubts about The Illusive Man.
[/quote]
True, but I think she would swallow misgivings about the situation especially since TIM is functionally Cerberus anyway. Sort of 'better the devil you know' I guess.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...
The only projects we know for certain she was involved in were protecting the Citadel from a bio weapon and the Lazarus Project, none of which are ethically ambiguous.
Matter of fact is, we just don’t know what Miranda did for Cerberus before Shepard’s death and what is her position regarding the sacrifice of civilians. What we do know is that she expressed regret, sadness and even anger at the deaths of the Lazarus personnel. So, I don’t think she would agree with TIM sending his own people into a trap.
[/quote]
First; I think resurrecting someone from the dead is somewhat morally or ethically ambiguous, it being essentially necromancy I think.

I think she's quite happy to accept risking people by sending them into a trap if she can be reasonably sure that success would follow. I think she has a degree of ruthlessness, even if it isn't as acute as say TIM's. This I think is her 'cold-hearted ****' personae that only Shephard that I know of really managed to crack (and even then only in romance?)

[quote]MisterJB wrote...
That’s very debatable. I would say that it is medical advancement, not different from DaVinci opening corpses to see what’s inside. Next stop, achieving Asari lifespan, please.
[/quote]
DaVinci opening corpses was ethically debatable then. I challenge you actually to go to your local cemetary and dig one up to 'open up' (seek a court order first of course!)
[quote]MisterJB wrote...
We can at least agree that raising a hero from the dead while he is still needed is nowhere near as questionable as sacrificing civilians and sending one’s own soldiers, people who are supposed to trust their leaders, to death traps, right?
[/quote]
Absolutely!

[quote]MisterJB wrote...
I am reasonable. Had I been in TIM’s shoes, I would have done the same thing. However, I would have also taken precautions to minimize civilian casualties.
Option 1) Warn Shepard about what was going to happen, tell him I intended to attract the Collectors to a trap and have him stand ready near Horizon, possible thanks to the Normandy’s stealth systems, for when the Collectors show up.
[/quote]
I think Shephard doesn't need to be 'warned' as such as TIM probably expects him to exercise due caution anyway. It would be like warning someone to wear oven mitts before taking somethign really hot out of the oven. It's common sense?
[quote]MisterJB wrote...
Option 2) Warn Shepard and have him convince Kaidan (I’m saying Kaidan because I think Ashley would be too damn unreasonable) to work with Cerberus just this once. Then Shepard would already be ground side when the Collectors showed up and maybe I could even send some Cerberus’s commandos to reinforce him.
[/quote]
IIRC he did say the VS was on the planet beforehand. It was up to Shephard to have the necessary linguist skills to convince him/her (and he promptly failed)
[quote]MisterJB wrote...
In no way would I keep information from Shepard and only warn him after the colony had already gone silent. He is my greatest asset, after all.
[/quote]
Maybe, but I think Shephard was pretty busy and in any case, Shephard was essentially TIM's subordinate the entire game (although admittedly he had pretty vast discretionary powers). I guess the metagame answer as well is that it's a game and they wanted to surprise us a bit.


[quote]MisterJB wrote...
At some point, that was a Cerberus operation, even if it is hard to tell at which point it went rogue and what exactly they were keeping from TIM. If we have doubts about it, I’m sure Miranda would have them as well. Again, I think this conversation is very important.
Shepard: What was Cerberus trying to prove by experiment on children like Jack?
Miranda: A mistake. No question. Not mine.
Despite what Miranda says when Jack demands justifications, when it’s Shepard who asks, she does not deny Cerberus was involved.
[/quote]
It was a Cerberus facility, the team was given a brief into what they were going to achieve (or attempt), but actual operating procedures I should imagine was pretty self-supplied and controlled. If you hire a microbiologist to do cell biology type tests, I don't think you'd presume to tell the microbiologist on how to do his job (because... what's the point of hiring a microbiologist?) Same thing as with Lazarus imho. Miranda was the head of the project, Cerberus and TIM told her what to do (Resurrect Shephard) but the how was left purely up to Miranda and her team.
I can't fault Miranda for her doubts about Teltin (I have them too!), but iirc the only way to test for biotic ability is during childhood anyway (albeit, you can safely psychologically profile and test children without obviously resorting to barbarity)

[quote]MisterJB wrote...
I do have some concerns when it comes to the Rachni, tough. We just don’t know how much sentience there is on an average worker. Honestly, I was happy when Miranda said they stopped the experiments when they realized their sentience. If it’s true, this is very well another thing TIM could have kept from Miranda.
[/quote]
I'm sure TIM keeps a lot of things from Miranda (and other heads). Why? because it goes into the codex entry (I think) about keeping cell's alienated from each other to preserve overall operational security. I still don't think Miranda's a saint though, with her intellect, I'm sure she's tackled many 'technically demanding jobs.'

[snfonseka]

MisterJB wrote...

Sigyn2011 wrote...
What if TIM got a hold of Shepard?  If he destroyed the Collector base, she or he'd obviously have broken the Cerberus treaty.  Still think she'd let anyone else handle it?

I have already speculated on this thread that Miranda's plotline in ME3 will mostly involve taking down Cerberus. So, I could definitively see Miranda saving Shepard in ME3.
However, for argument's sake, let's pretend that Miranda was on the Citadel/Arcturus Station/Whatever when terrible news arrive, Shepard has been captured by Cerberus. I think it is only logical for Miranda to be the leader of any group that migth be sent to rescue him.
If the Alliance doesn't want to spend resources searching for Shepard or have simply forsaken him completely due to the events of "Arrival", it is my belief that Miranda would try to form her own team to rescue him.

Don't forget the it is possible to Miranda to die in ME2. So BW won't make a main plot that depends on a character that can be dead in ME2.

[Ieldra]

enayasoul wrote...

Found this interesting when looking up the meaning of names.

Miranda m(i)-ran-da, mir(a)-nda as a girl's name is pronounced mer-ANN-dah. It is of Latin origin, and the meaning of Miranda is "worthy of admiration". In Shakespeare's "The Tempest", Miranda is an innocent girl raised and educated on an isolated island by her magician father.

I made a reference to Shakespeare in my fanfic "Promethean Legacy". The scene is 16-year old Miranda making preparations to leave everything she knows behind. The tower referred to is the HQ of the corporation Miranda's father owns and two kilometres high:

Her quarters greeted her with darkness and silence. Only the moonlight made the walls and furnishings visible. She let her eyes wander over the familiar outlines. This would be her last night in what had, despite everything, been her home. It looked like the safe haven a home was supposed to be. With the penthouse located at the corner of the tower, both the big lounge and her office ****** study had completely transparent walls on one side. Often, there was nothing but clouds and sky to see outside, giving life up here an unreal, dream-like atmosphere, as removed from the Earth as her father's ambitions.

Sometimes she'd wondered if this life would turn out to be a dream, if this 'cloud-capped tower' she was living in would some day reveal itself to be an illusion and dissolve into thin air like the towers in Shakespeare's play. Her father would never relinquish his powers, that was for sure, and unlike the original Miranda, she'd grab them from him if she could. Her namesake had been naïve and idealistic, and for all her courage she'd fought with the means her culture would allow her. She'd not make that mistake; she couldn't afford to with her father as her enemy. Strange, however, that the classics and the even older mythology therein could echo the present so well, with her having powers and abilities which would seem magical to those who didn't know better.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 mai 2011 - 07:43 .

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...
Sigyn2011: I agree that it would depend on the circunstances. If her father somehow got to Shepard, I think that Miranda would drop everything to save him, despite knowying it would be a trap.
However, if Shepard went missing inside Reaper-controlled space while she was already working on some project to help them win the War, I think she would try to use her old contacts or maybe just warn some of Shepard's influential friends, Admiral Hackett, Liara, etc, and hope they would mount a rescue operation.

What's important here is Miranda's "The mission comes first" attitude. If, say, a loved one had been captured and she on a very important mission, she won't interrupt it if that meant the mission fails. If she's not on a mission or it's not as important, knowing that the kidnapping is a trap for her wouldn't prevent her from attepting a rescue.

It is a matter of profession pride. In her job, she does things right and doesn't let personal feelings interfere. And even the fact that a loved one is captured would not prevent her from planning the rescue operation with her mind on tactics, logistics etc.. This might make her appear cold, but as her LM shows, she's anything but that where her loved ones are concerned. It's just that she has her emotions under control.


 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 mai 2011 - 08:02 .

[Prudii Aden]

In my estimation, there are only two things worse than Shepard getting hacked off - one is Miranda when she's hacked off, the other is both of them getting that angry. Which one is worse is likely a matter for discussion. Survival chances in either scenario are asymtotic.

Also, welcome to the new people! I'm one of the 'Old Timers' Ieldra mentioned, even if I do lurk most of the time. We have gone through and analysed a lot of stuff, but there's nothing to say we've got everything. Everyone's perspective is different after all!

Modifié par Prudii Aden, 03 mai 2011 - 09:57 .

[jtav]

About Miranda's work for Cerberus: there's something of a disconnect between what must be true because of her background and the lore and how she's presented post-Lazarus. She is presented as almost naïve or deluded. She talks a good game, but the writers are very careful that she keep her hands clean and be horrified at any dodgy Cerberus projects. And yet, she's one of only a half-dozen Cerberus operatives to see TIM in person (per Retribution). People who are naïve and deluded don't rise that high in a terrorist organization. She has almost certainly committed cold-blooded murder, torture, and various other crimes in the pursuit of her duties. But we don't see any of that, because their precious poster girl might be seen as unsympathetic. I wish they had had the courage to follow through with her original characterization in the prologue. I love that Miranda to pieces.. Certainly, I don't want her to be completely ruthless all the time, but I thought I was signing up for a superspy in the vein of Black Widow, not a relative innocent who almost only seems to be with Cerberus because of her self-esteem issues and simply gravitates the most charismatic figure she can find to give her purpose.

[MisterJB]

jtav wrote...
 She is presented as almost naïve or deluded. She talks a good game, but the writers are very careful that she keep her hands clean and be horrified at any dodgy Cerberus projects. She has almost certainly committed cold-blooded murder, torture, and various other crimes in the pursuit of her duties. 

I think there is a very important distinction you are failing to make here regarding the subjects of said torture and murder.
Could I see Miranda torturing some batarian terrorist like Balak? Definitively. Could I see her seducing and then murdering a politician like Udina? Yes.
However, the dodgy project she was horrified at involved the torture of innocent children in order to develop Biotic potential, the exact same thing her father did to her.
Really, just because Miranda does not condone the torture of children, you think that means she will never use it, no matter the circumstances?
Tough I do agree with one thing, I was surprised by her naivety regarding The Illusive Man. Even so, we should remember that Cerberus is divided by Cells and so, the only information she would receive from the other Cerberus projects would either come from TIM (who would filter it) or from Extranet and Alliance Reports, none which Miranda would find reliable.

gravitates the most charismatic figure she can find to give her purpose.

I got the impression what gave her purpose was the cause of Cerberus and not necessarely it's leader.

Arijharn wrote...
But how? Any tip off to try and save some citizens beforehand could tip off the Collector's that Horizon is going to be a trap, and thus necessitate a 'change of venue.

I already presented two options to minimize the risk to the civilians and none of them involved tipping them off.

Shephard is a highly trained individual, a certain amount of faith is given to our hero to accomplish the mission.

Except when he has to infiltrate a Collector ship. In such circumstances, Shepard becomes a trigger happy idiot in the eyes of The Illusive Man. 

[

I don't think Miranda is too stupid to realise that Cerberus has done 'bad things' though, and judging from the fact that she's been with the 'company' for probably like 19 years(?) (and new about it before even this) I find it really hard to believe that she has never been involved with more than just the Batarian attack on the Council and Lazarus. It defies belief in my opinion, given that she's one of the few who not only regularly converses with the Illusive Man, but also physically is in his presence (and all the 'security vetting' such a proximity must entail).

I was also surprised by this. Sure, Miranda knew that Cerberus was ethically ambiguous but I think The Illusive Man hid the darkest parts of Cerberus from her and we should remember that Cerberus is divided by Cells and so, the only information she would receive from the other Cerberus projects would either come from TIM (who would filter it) or from Extranet and Alliance Reports, none which Miranda would find reliable.
Sure, it's naive and not what I would have expected from her but... there it is.
BTW, I didn't say that Miranda was involved with only two projects in 19 years, that's...impossible. However, it is possible that TIM kept her away from the most ethically ambigous ones. Say, kdinap colonists, place them on Dragon's Teeth, see what happens?

First; I think resurrecting someone from the dead is somewhat morally or ethically ambiguous, it being essentially necromancy I think.

Necromancy is magic. What Miranda did was science. Shepard is not an undead, he sleeps, eats, drinks and ****s.

I think she's quite happy to accept risking people by sending them into a trap if she can be reasonably sure that success would follow. I think she has a degree of ruthlessness, even if it isn't as acute as say TIM's.

I'm going to disagree with you there, Miranda has proven to be willing to sacrifice Cerberus staff in order to achieve the missions goals, not once but twice. However, she would not sent them unknowingly into a trap, she would not lie to them.
She did not lie to Shepard about wanting to put a control chip in his brain.

DaVinci opening corpses was ethically debatable then. I challenge you actually to go to your local cemetary and dig one up to 'open up' (seek a court order first of course!)

Not ethically debatable, outrigth forbidden by the church, actually. What I mean is that if nowadays we accept tranplants and dissections, why should we disaprove of bringing someone back to life? As far as we know, no one suffered because of it.

I think Shephard doesn't need to be 'warned' as such as TIM probably expects him to exercise due caution anyway. It would be like warning someone to wear oven mitts before taking somethign really hot out of the oven. It's common sense?

You are still not understanding what I mean. Think of it this way:
Let's say that there's a dangerous bear (the Collectors) preying on your hometown. So, you (The Illusive Man) hire an hunter (Shepard) to kill the bear, however, you suspect that this bear is personally interested in the hunter (hey, according toJAWS IV, animals can hold grudges) and so, you grab the son of the hunter (Virmire Survivor) and you take him to a town near your own to see what happens.
And then, you actually wait until the bear has already tore through half of the town's population before warning the hunter about what's going on.
This is more or less what TIM did. What I wanted him to do was to warn Shepard about the trap before it was set in motion, before the Collectors showed up or even before spreading rumors that Shepard was alive and Horizon could be the next colony to get hit.
The way he did it makes me think that it was not a trap at all, TIM wanted to verify if the Collectors were indeed insterested in Shepard and when he was proven rigth, he sent Shepard to Horizon in order to minimize the damage.
This is not setting a trap, this is sacrificing civilians.

If you hire a microbiologist to do cell biology type tests, I don't think you'd presume to tell the microbiologist on how to do his job (because... what's the point of hiring a microbiologist?) Same thing as with Lazarus imho. Miranda was the head of the project, Cerberus and TIM told her what to do (Resurrect Shephard) but the how was left purely up to Miranda and her team.

EDI told us that The Illusive Man personally supervises each of Cerberus's projects and we do know that at least once, TIM intervined to stop Miranda from putting a control chip in Shepard's brain.
So, it's really hard to say just how much TIM knew and approved of what happened in the Teltin facility.

Modifié par MisterJB, 03 mai 2011 - 02:31 .

[jtav]

Oh, I agree that most, if not all, unsavory acts she performs would be directed at those she could rationalize as deserving it. But that doesn't change the fact that we don't see her doing anything. We don't see her doing much in the way of being a good operative or project lead. We do see misjudgment after misjudgment and her almost pleading insistence that TIM couldn't have betray her. I'd like to believe that the cause gives her purpose, but I can't shake the feeling that she's one of those basically decent characters that falls in with the bad guys because of her issues and joins the hero because he fixes her. It's like having double vision. Two Mirandas, only one of which I like.

[MisterJB]

snfonseka wrote...
Don't forget the it is possible to Miranda to die in ME2. So BW won't make a main plot that depends on a character that can be dead in ME2.

1-Miranda is extremely hard to kill by accident, you pretty much have to be trying to.
Bioware gave her plot armor that thick for a reason.
2-If she died, it will be what happens if Wrex dies. She'll be replaced by someone with a similar role, it will be harder to take down Cerberus and you migth even be unable to choose the best option, preserve Cerberus and use it's resources to help humanity.

jtav wrote...
 But that doesn't change the fact that we don't see her doing anything. We don't see her doing much in the way of being a good operative or project lead.

She didn't have many opportunities to show it. In the end, the game is about Shepard and his decisions. We also don't see Grunt showying any signs of superiority when compared to other Krogans despite the fact he is supossed to be perfect.
And Miranda did show that she is a good project lead, Shepard is her project, after all, and it was a sucess. And we could even say that by leading the Fire Team so sucessfully, she has proven to be a good operative or at least, an amazing leader when on the field.

We do see misjudgment after misjudgment and her almost pleading insistence that TIM couldn't have betray her.

Because one of her major plotlines in ME2 is all about Shepard showying Miranda that she is human and can make mistakes like the rest of us. I mean, it's like Jack claiming that she was the only victim of the Teltin facility. People makes mistakes.
Frankly, I'm ok with it, I genuinely liked what Bioware did. Your mileage may vary, of course.

Have you tried Mass Effect: Galaxy?

Ieldra2 wrote...
What's important here is Miranda's "The mission comes first" attitude. If, say, a loved one had been captured and she on a very important mission, she won't interrupt it if that meant the mission fails.

An extract from Miranda's chat with Oriana:
"Miranda: There isn't a point to saving the world if I can't even talk to my sister."
To me, this quote seems to imply that Oriana's safety woud take precedence over any mission.
If romanced, would Miranda extend the same courtesy to Shepard? Who knows.
The situations are very different, of course. Shepard can take care of himself.
Stil, personally, I believe that if confirmed that Shepard had indeed been kidnapped by her father, Miranda would be unable to let Mr.Lawson take anything else away from her and she wouldn't want to involve anyone else in something so personal.

And even the fact that a loved one is captured would not prevent her from planning the rescue operation with her mind on tactics, logistics etc..  

Well, I didn't say that Miranda would burst through the front door and shoot everything that stood between her and her loved one.

Modifié par MisterJB, 03 mai 2011 - 03:22 .

[SatanicStyle]

a quick question. will she be in me3 squad as a teammate? Because i love yvonne strahovski

Modifié par SatanicStyle, 03 mai 2011 - 05:31 .

[naledgeborn]

Am I the only one that doesn't like this TIW role fans are attaching to Miri? It's almost like we're saying "let's make her Liara 2.0." TIW is too similar to the SB. She needs her own story not a carbon copy of someone else's just because she was introduced in Act II. We're more creative than that, and I can only hope the writers are too.

[MisterJB]

Miranda will take over Cerberus and then steal all of her father's money. That way Liara will be half the criminal mastermind Miranda is.

Modifié par MisterJB, 03 mai 2011 - 06:14 .

[jtav]

Well, considering Liara became what I thought Miranda was...