15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Jebel Krong wrote...

jtav wrote...
I really really don't want her cured. Let her adopt or create a child the way she was created. There are too many ways to screw up a cure.

don't want to see a cure either, they should just forget the dossiers full-stop. there's nothing wrogn with dropping a bad idea.

The problem is this: if they never mention it again, she's canonically and incurably infertile. I'd hate that. They should at least hint at the different ways around it as proposed here, even if it's nothing more than one optional line in an after-the-end dialogue. You can always avoid taking that option if you don't want to deal with it.

I can understand that you all fear the ultra-cheesy way a solution could be handled. I'm with you on that. But this thing has gotten too big to be simply ignored. A hint at the possibility of having genetically engineered children would avoid most of the cheesy scenarios and present a dramatic opportunity for character development. I'd like that. 

I also think those who would like a cure should not be prevented from imagining a future based on that as well. A hint is really all it takes. Nothing should manifest in the game.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 mai 2011 - 08:40 .

[atheelogos]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

jtav wrote...
I really really don't want her cured. Let her adopt or create a child the way she was created. There are too many ways to screw up a cure.

don't want to see a cure either, they should just forget the dossiers full-stop. there's nothing wrogn with dropping a bad idea.

The problem is this: if they never mention it again, she's canonically and incurably infertile. I'd hate that. They should at least hint at the different ways around it as proposed here, even if it's nothing more than one optional line in an after-the-end dialogue. You can always avoid taking that option if you don't want to deal with it.

I can understand that you all fear the ultra-cheesy way a solution could be handled. I'm with you on that. But this thing has gotten too big to be simply ignored. A hint at the possibility of having genetically engineered children would avoid most of the cheesy scenarios and present a dramatic opportunity for character development. I'd like that. 

I also think those who would like a cure should not be prevented from imagining a future based on that as well. A hint is really all it takes. Nothing should manifest in the game.

I have to say her problem sounds like an easy one to fix. They didn't say anything about her eggs being bad. Just her womb, so all one has to do is take the eggs out inject some with sheps sperm and put it into an artificial womb... problem solved right? sry for any sp errors.... its late. lol

[Jebel Krong]

dlc dossiers are NOT canon. ignoring miranda's half of them were "funny" easter-eggs - legions, zaeed's, kasumi's, grunt's... so it leaves nothing to ignore it.

[Ieldra]

atheelogos wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

jtav wrote...
I really really don't want her cured. Let her adopt or create a child the way she was created. There are too many ways to screw up a cure.

don't want to see a cure either, they should just forget the dossiers full-stop. there's nothing wrogn with dropping a bad idea.

The problem is this: if they never mention it again, she's canonically and incurably infertile. I'd hate that. They should at least hint at the different ways around it as proposed here, even if it's nothing more than one optional line in an after-the-end dialogue. You can always avoid taking that option if you don't want to deal with it.

I can understand that you all fear the ultra-cheesy way a solution could be handled. I'm with you on that. But this thing has gotten too big to be simply ignored. A hint at the possibility of having genetically engineered children would avoid most of the cheesy scenarios and present a dramatic opportunity for character development. I'd like that. 

I also think those who would like a cure should not be prevented from imagining a future based on that as well. A hint is really all it takes. Nothing should manifest in the game.

I have to say her problem sounds like an easy one to fix. They didn't say anything about her eggs being bad. Just her womb, so all one has to do is take the eggs out inject some with sheps sperm and put it into an artificial womb... problem solved right? sry for any sp errors.... its late. lol

The problem is not of a technical nature. Most here agree that it wouldn't be a big thing with the level of biotechnology we have seen in the game, and that that doctor was simply not up to date with the latest developments in his field. Depending on the nature of the problem, anything between IVF and artificial gametogenesis, possibly in combination, could do the job. The concerns are about the storytelling style. I can imagine any number of ways how Bioware could screw a cure scenario up and go way off into traditional-romance cheesy-land and turn Miranda into something unrecognizable. That's why jtav and I prefer the "creating children her father's way" scenario - that way the solution to the problem would avoid that danger *and* present character development opportunities for Miranda.

@Jebel Krong:
That's wishful thinking. The events of LotSB are canon, Liara is the Shadow Broker in ME3. I really wish we could just ignore the dossier, but it is in the game and it is linked to canonical events, so it is canon as well unless someone at Bioware specifically says that it is not. It *cannot* be treated as nonexistent, as much as I would wish that it could. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 mai 2011 - 09:59 .

[Jebel Krong]

@ Ieldra: not really - the events of LoSB are undoubtedly canon, what is on one terminal as an easter-egg at the end on a 2nd "home hub" in the game are certainly not.

[xelander]

@Ieldra

Sidestepping her infertility by creating children the same way she was created would make her closer to a Reaper than to a human, IMO.

I like the angle they introduced with the SB dossier, as heartbreaking as it is. I'd have liked it more if the language wasn't so definitive, i.e. if the chances of her conceiving normally would be astronomically high ... (and since I'm one for happy endings she'd get pregnant as it is well known that one-in-a-million chances happen seven out of eight times)

Anyway, it seems very fitting for me that there would be some repercussions from messing with humanity on such a basic level.

OT: This topic reminds me of a film I liked - Gattaca; deals with much of the same issues. Any other fans out there?

[Ieldra]

xelander wrote...
@Ieldra

Sidestepping her infertility by creating children the same way she was created would make her closer to a Reaper than to a human, IMO.

I'm sorry, but you need to explain this. What the hell is so damnably inhuman about artificially creating a human genome if you can't create one the natural way? The only difference is the element of random chance inherent in the latter. And it's not that I'd even suggest more improvements, though I'd not be against that. It's just a way to create with technology what you can't create the natural way. You can even re-introduce the random chance element if you want.

Closer to a Reaper? I don't think I've heard many things more offensive on this thread in the last year.

Anyway, it seems very fitting for me that there would be some repercussions from messing with humanity on such a basic level.

No I don't find it fitting at all. I think there is no particular advantage to the natural way except that sex feels better and we don't *need* technology for it. Miranda's father did not "mess with humanity", he improved on the basic model in every possible way. I can't see anything particularly bad about it except practical considerations. The bad part in Miranda's history is her upbringing, the psychological abuse she experienced at her father's hands, not her genetics.

So no, those repercussions are exactly what I do NOT want. In fact, they're about the only thing I do not want with regard to Miranda and her genetic engineering. I fully appreciate Miranda's genetic engineering as a way to improve on the messy human biology, and I don't want to be told by Bioware that genetic engineering a human is bad. I don't want to be told a lesson in doubtful morals I'm so vehemently against that it would spoil the whole game if it became canonical.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 mai 2011 - 11:49 .

[jtav]

I don't like Miranda's creation. I'm opposed in the strongest possible terms to what she represents, though I'm willing to suspend that for the character development her using the tech would offer--ME already does a lot of things I don't like and so does Miranda. I even came up with a physical flaw to subvert it months before LOTSB. But the infertility has nothing to do with anything. It's just "See, she's not perfect. Feel sorry for her."  They feel back on a cliche gender stereotype.

[naledgeborn]

xelander wrote...
OT: This topic reminds me of a film I liked - Gattaca; deals with much of the same issues. Any other fans out there?

Good movie. "Your spirit and personality is what makes you great." Is basically the moral of that movie.

[MisterJB]

Jebel Krong wrote...

@ Ieldra: not really - the events of LoSB are undoubtedly canon, what is on one terminal as an easter-egg at the end on a 2nd "home hub" in the game are certainly not.

Nonsense. If you are going to claim Miranda has no fertility problem, then we migth as well say that Garrus's mother is a very healthy Turian.
The dossiers are not Easter Eggs, they are hints to the character's storyline in ME3.
Miranda wants a baby but she's sterile.
Garrus's mother is dying and his sister thinks he doesn't care.
Thane's lifespan could be increased with a lung transplant.
Jack's parents migth still be alive.

Now, Grunt searching for "Tirannosaurus-Wrex", that's an Easter Egg.

xelander wrote...
I like the angle they introduced with the SB dossier, as heartbreaking as it is. I'd have liked it more if the language wasn't so definitive, i.e. if the chances of her conceiving normally would be astronomically high ... (and since I'm one for happy endings she'd get pregnant as it is well known that one-in-a-million chances happen seven out of eight times)
 

I do not subscribe to the line of tought that Miranda creating a child the way she was created makes her or the baby abominations to be put to the torch.
However, I would like that the option for Miranda to conceive normally to be present in ME3. If done rigth, it would not be cheesy and it would lead to character development, unlike a cure.
If it comes down to a cure, I hope there will be a great price to pay, instead of "Here's a vaccine, go makes babies."

Ieldra2 wrote...

I think there is no particular advantage to the natural way except that sex feels better and we don't *need* technology for it.

Well, to be completely honest, women say being pregnant is an amazing experience.

The bad part in Miranda's history is her upbringing, the psychological abuse she experienced at her father's hands, not her genetics.

Had Miranda been treated like a princess by her father, her self esteem issues would most likely still be there, just not as accentuated. Her achievements would still only be possible due to her genetic egineering, which could make her question wether or not she should feel any pride for them, independently of how she was brougth up.

This is the only reasonable argument that makes me think twice about Miranda creating her baby like she was created. Wouldn't the child eventually suffer from the same doubts that plague Miranda?

jtav wrote...
But the infertility has nothing to do with anything. It's just "See, she's not perfect. Feel sorry for her."  They feel back on a cliche gender stereotype.

Agreed. I think it was because most fans tend to discount psychological scars over physical ones.

Modifié par MisterJB, 10 mai 2011 - 01:50 .

[jtav]

I got around to watching the rejection scenario. I think it's actually hotter than the engine room scene because you can tell she plans to rip his clothes off as soon as she can. The engine room scene is too tasteless to be truly erotic and the anticipation usually ends up being more arousing.

[naledgeborn]

Ieldra2 wrote...
So no, those repercussions are exactly what I do NOT want. In fact, they're about the only thing I do not want with regard to Miranda and her genetic engineering. I fully appreciate Miranda's genetic engineering as a way to improve on the messy human biology, and I don't want to be told by Bioware that genetic engineering a human is bad. I don't want to be told a lesson in doubtful morals I'm so vehemently against that it would spoil the whole game if it became canonical.

Well genetic enhacments is pretty much the standard of Systems Alliance Navy so I don't think Bioware pulling a 180 and saying "LOLZ SCIENCE IZ EBIL!!" is likely. Also I got the impression that Miranda looked upon her genetic tailoring as both a gift AND a curse. Granted Mr. Lawson's fanaticism may have helped, but I don't think it's the only contributor to her grapples existentialism..

[naledgeborn]

MisterJB wrote...

The bad part in Miranda's history is her upbringing, the psychological abuse she experienced at her father's hands, not her genetics.

Had Miranda been treated like a princess by her father, her self esteem issues would most likely still be there, just not as accentuated. Her achievements would still only be possible due to her genetic egineering, which could make her question wether or not she should feel any pride for them, independently of how she was brougth up.

This is the only reasonable argument that makes me think twice about Miranda creating her baby like she was created. Wouldn't the child eventually suffer from the same doubts that plague Miranda?

That's basically what I said. I got ninja'd 

Modifié par naledgeborn, 10 mai 2011 - 01:58 .

[Vertigo_1]

So...when I read those dossiers and saw that she was infertile I kinda felt bad for her...it actually made me like her more(?)

Also...I'm curious what everyone thinks about the recent twitter posts from Casey Hudson?
The part about heels, space boobs, and breathing masks making a return but they are also adding in more armor and helmets?
Plus: A final resolution to all Romances in ME3

[xelander]

jtav wrote...

... But the infertility has nothing to do with anything. It's just "See, she's not perfect. Feel sorry for her."  They feel (I assume you mean fell?) back on a cliche gender stereotype.

I don't think they intentended to make us feel sorry for her, as cliche as the situation may be. I believe  that everything has its price and consequences and there is no piece of paper that is one-sided (just take the metaphor for what it is and let's not go into the whole Moebius surface thing). Humanity (or sapient life in ME, if you will) is able to understand and use and abuse natural laws to an ever understanding degree. The problem is that there are always unforeseen consequences and unknown quantities, because if there weren't, we'd be able to comprehend the universe as a whole and that would make us equal to God on our own, which is not possible in any of the monotheistic religions you might confess (or for the atheists among us - comprehending the Universe in its entire complexity would require the same complexity; whether you believe a sapient being is capable of that is a personal choice, but at least I hope we can agree that it is very improbable)

One of the main themes of the ME universe (and in sci-fi in general) is the conflict between organic life and artificial life; genetic diversity and chaos and "human" spirit and soul versus AI, the possibility to have control over every aspect of your creation/existence (I'd add "without being guided by some kind of morals", but we still know next to nothing about the Reapers' motivation). I do not think gene modding in itself is a bad thing, rather it's the extent to which it is applied. If it can prevent a life threatening disease - sure, why not, but to juggle humanity on such basic level would have catastrophic results, IMO.

As Shepard can say, "It's you spirit and personality that define you". To me, if Miranda starts procreating by artificial means, it would lead at the end to a situation that fits Mordins description: "No soul, replaced by tech". Society in which such methods have become normal would judge its members by the perfection of their genes.

Heh, you see how this "cliche" adds even more depth to an already controversial charatcer?

Ieldra2 wrote...

I'm
sorry, but you need to explain this. What the hell is so damnably
inhuman about artificially creating a human genome if you can't create
one the natural way?

Closer to a Reaper? I don't think I've heard many things more offensive on this thread in the last year.

Think of it as a scale of natural/artificial. Procreating the "artificial" way (and heavily modifying genetic traits along the way) would bring you closer to the artificial end of the scale. So you'll be one step closer to the Reapers (No soul, replaced by genes, if you will) than to humans/organics. Whether that's one step too much, it's in the eye of the beholder and this is where our opinions differ.

I did not mean to offend you or anyone personally, If I did so, please tell me how, so that I may correct myself if I'm at fault. I seek only to share, explain and defend my views (or modify them, if I'm persuaded by someone else's arguments).

The more I write, the more I realize that we
can't continue this without getting into a discussion of what it means
to be human, and this in turn would lead to questions about morals, and
good and bad and the existence of God and so on. I'm happy to continue this, but
it would need to be in another thread, as it is bound to soon get OT and stay too OT for a Miranda appreciation thread.

EDIT: @ Naledgeborn
Saying that her achievements were only possible due to her genetic modifications is playing a what-if scenario  with no basis for comparison. There is no way to know whether she would have achieved the same or even more, were she not created the way she was.

Modifié par xelander, 10 mai 2011 - 03:12 .

[Jebel Krong]

MisterJB wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

@ Ieldra: not really - the events of LoSB are undoubtedly canon, what is on one terminal as an easter-egg at the end on a 2nd "home hub" in the game are certainly not.

Nonsense. If you are going to claim Miranda has no fertility problem, then we migth as well say that Garrus's mother is a very healthy Turian.
The dossiers are not Easter Eggs, they are hints to the character's storyline in ME3.
Miranda wants a baby but she's sterile.
Garrus's mother is dying and his sister thinks he doesn't care.
Thane's lifespan could be increased with a lung transplant.
Jack's parents migth still be alive.

Now, Grunt searching for "Tirannosaurus-Wrex", that's an Easter Egg.

wait, so one thing in the dossiers is canon and another is an easter-egg?! <_<

the dossiers may well provide some hints that potentially could be leveraged for further character development, but DLCs themselves are rarely canon at all because of the inherent problems in making sure everyone has them (even if free). i fail to see the logic in assuming something that is only presented on a terminal at the end of a dlc as the starting point of the next phase of anyone's character or an ongoing thing meant to be taken seriously into the next game.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 10 mai 2011 - 03:34 .

[MisterJB]

Jebel Kong: Look up the definition of Easter Egg.
"A virtual Easter egg is an intentional hidden message, in-joke or feature in a work such as a computer program, web page, video game, movie, book or crossword. "

Being an Easter Egg does not make something non-canon.

[MisterJB]

Jebel Krong wrote...
DLCs themselves are rarely canon at all because of the inherent problems in making sure everyone has them (even if free).

There is no inherent problem. Why do you think you can't tell Liara to not become the Shadow Broker? Why do you think you can't find another solution to prevent the Reaper's Arrival besides destroying the Bahak system?
Because these are canonical events, even if you do no play the DLCs, they still happened.
Liara is the Shadow Broker, Shepard killed over 300,000 Batarians and Miranda is sterile. To claim anything else in ME3 is a retcon.
They can ignore it, of course, but Miranda will still remain sterile so I would prefer if they approached the issue.

Modifié par MisterJB, 10 mai 2011 - 03:50 .

[Ieldra]

@xelander:

Here are the main points of the position I'm arguing from:

(1) "Artificial" is not inherently better than "natural". In fact, that is a false dichotomy, because nature is nothing more than artifice that came about on its own. Imagine the same organism twice, once created by intention, once grown without intention. I can see no support for the position that the latter is better than the former.

(2) There is no such thing as an "abomination", because there are no valid objective judgments of what should exist and what should not that are independent from the viewpoint and preconceptions of an individual or a society. There are no built-in ethics in nature. Nature is what is. What comes about through the workings of nature is also, by definition, natural, regardless of whether intention - since that is also a part of nature - has played a role in its design.

(3) If it can be said that the Reapers are evil - and I will challenge even that in another place - it is not because of what they represent. It is because of what they do: force intelligent organic lifeforms into new shapes against their will.

(4) The assumption that meddling with human genes will always lead to catastrophic results is the wishful thinking of those who find the mere idea undesirable. If - and only if - you know enough about the subject matter, catastrophic results will likely be rare, as in any technology. It may stand to question if the ME universe's humanity has sufficient knowledge, but the idea of improving the human gene pool through technology cannot be judged a priori.

(5) There is no inherent wrongness in any entity or action. It's always the circumstances that make something wrong or right. If you create an artificial human with improved genes, and traits that almost all humans would count as desirable, there are no grounds to judge that action undesirable except ideology.

More in a PM, since this will otherwise get seriously OT.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 mai 2011 - 04:29 .

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...

The bad part in Miranda's history is her upbringing, the psychological abuse she experienced at her father's hands, not her genetics.

Had Miranda been treated like a princess by her father, her self esteem issues would most likely still be there, just not as accentuated. Her achievements would still only be possible due to her genetic egineering, which could make her question wether or not she should feel any pride for them, independently of how she was brougth up.

This is the only reasonable argument that makes me think twice about Miranda creating her baby like she was created. Wouldn't the child eventually suffer from the same doubts that plague Miranda?

I see the process of accepting an artificial origin as equivalent as a necessary adaption to humanity's technological progress. We have adapted to various circumstances in our lives, some worse than a mere artificial origin. Death, for instance? Why must people die? It's an insult of fate, you could say. Still, we cannot avoid it and must adapt. Everyone of us must adapt.

If through genetic engineering you get is a longer life, drastically improved health and various other kinds of improved traits, isn't that worth some mental effort? Had Miranda been treated as a princess by her father, perhaps her existential problems would not have compeltely disappeared. But very likely, making peace with her origins would have been quite a bit easier than making peace with the inevitability of death.

Edit:
To add to that: there is the additional consideration that even if Miranda creates her (and possibly Shepard's) children with the help of biotechnology, there will not be some sinister purpose of a genetic dynasty behind it. That will also count against any possible existential problems.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 mai 2011 - 04:56 .

[xelander]

So, to prevent this from spinning into OT, here's a different question:
Assuming that Miri gets to have a child (in whichever way each thinks best), how do you think she'll be as a mother?

We have some funny snippets from the chats with Oriana

[Jebel Krong]

MisterJB wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...
DLCs themselves are rarely canon at all because of the inherent problems in making sure everyone has them (even if free).

There is no inherent problem. Why do you think you can't tell Liara to not become the Shadow Broker? Why do you think you can't find another solution to prevent the Reaper's Arrival besides destroying the Bahak system?
Because these are canonical events, even if you do no play the DLCs, they still happened.
Liara is the Shadow Broker, Shepard killed over 300,000 Batarians and Miranda is sterile. To claim anything else in ME3 is a retcon.
They can ignore it, of course, but Miranda will still remain sterile so I would prefer if they approached the issue.

er, CH has already stated they have an alternative for people that didn't do arrival - that alone should tell you how wrong you are. and there is a world of difference between arrival or LoSB and a few easter-eggs or semi-humourous asides on a random terminal. the writers probably thought it was a clever little throwaway thing that wouldn't be taken seriously. more fool us.

anyway i don't wanna get hung up on this topic.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 10 mai 2011 - 08:39 .

[Td1984]

xelander wrote...

So, to prevent this from spinning into OT, here's a different question:
Assuming that Miri gets to have a child (in whichever way each thinks best), how do you think she'll be as a mother?

We have some funny snippets from the chats with Oriana

Extremely protective, possibly even too protective.

[Clonedzero]

xelander wrote...

So, to prevent this from spinning into OT, here's a different question:
Assuming that Miri gets to have a child (in whichever way each thinks best), how do you think she'll be as a mother?

We have some funny snippets from the chats with Oriana

she'd be one of those "tiger mothers"

[MisterJB]

The problem is that Miranda not only has existencial doubts due to why she was created; her child would have none no such problems; but she also has self-esteem issues due to the knowledge that none of her skills are actually hers, they were all put there by scientists and it's almost inevitable that any child created by genetic engineering will suffer from this problem. Can it be overcomed? Maybe but I would certainly find it harder than accepting that one day I will die.
I'm not against Miranda genetically engineering her child but I have my doubts. If she does it, I think she should keep the truth from the child. I also expect Miranda to never tell Oriana the truth as to why she is smarter than the rest of her class.

Jebel Krong wrote...

CH has already stated they have an alternative for people that didn't do arrival

Link?
Not that I don't believe you but I would like to see the context. Perhaps he is refering to the Oh so important decision of warning or not the Batarian colony.

and there is a world of difference between arrival or LoSB and a few easter-eggs or semi-humourous asides on a random terminal.

Except that we are not talking about semi-humourous asides but rather a serious medical condition that can lead to clinical depression.

Modifié par MisterJB, 10 mai 2011 - 09:55 .