15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Some things never get old.... I hope

[Melra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Some things never get old.... I hope

You're correct. 

[JonDoe297]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Rather not exciting, it seems. I'll post another question for you to ponder:

Miranda said Oriana was made to replace her. But why would Miranda's father do that? It seems he had everything he wanted in Miranda - she's very competent, she's a strong biotic, she's physically perfect, and a few things more. So...why? Or was Oriana grown after Miranda ran away?

I thought that Miri's father made Oriana after Miri ran away, so her father decided to make another doughter. Then Miri found out about her and decided to go back.

@Andaius20:
I'd rather ignore that scene - Miranda saying such a thing has always seemed out of character to me.

I think she changes after seeing hundreds of thousands of people being abducted and killed to make a human reaper. Its character development over the course of the game, spending time with Shepard and seeing how he operates in contrast with how the Illusive man operates. Miri is only reallly loyal to Cerberus because they sheltered her from her father and let her proove herself through her actions, instead of through her genes. Then when Shepard shows her that the only reason Cerberus needs her is because of her genes, and that they use her like tool, just like her father did she relaizes that maybe its not the best place and being on Shepard's crew is a better option; where she is apreciated as a person rather than as a object.

[Ieldra]

JonDoe297 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I'd rather ignore that scene - Miranda saying such a thing has always seemed out of character to me.

I think she changes after seeing hundreds of thousands of people being abducted and killed to make a human reaper. Its character development over the course of the game, spending time with Shepard and seeing how he operates in contrast with how the Illusive man operates. Miri is only reallly loyal to Cerberus because they sheltered her from her father and let her proove herself through her actions, instead of through her genes. Then when Shepard shows her that the only reason Cerberus needs her is because of her genes, and that they use her like tool, just like her father did she relaizes that maybe its not the best place and being on Shepard's crew is a better option; where she is apreciated as a person rather than as a object.

No. Miranda is loyal to Cerberus because she believes in the agenda of "preservation and advancement of humanity". She makes that very clear in the various conversations with Shepard. If she becomes dissatisfied with TIM, it's not for the goals but the methods, and - here you may be correct - because being used as a tool may not be enough for her anymore. 

Still, her support for destroying the base comes across as character derailment. Miranda may not trust TIM as much as before, but she'd not turn from stalwart supporter to enemy in the space of two conversations with Shepard. She also has a practical mind who would not fail to see the merit of keeping the base, independently from the problem of TIM. I can see her having doubts, yes, but not more. There are two aspects to this:

(1) The minor annoyance: If you destroy the base, she resigns from Cerberus. There is some foreshadowing of that on the Collector Ship, but her change of mind still comes very suddenly. Too suddenly to be seen as character development. She didn't even speak with Shepard about it. The only time we can speak to her about Cerberus, she is still the Cerberus loyalist. How she acts at the base does not convince me and looks like character derailment, it's just a mechanism to make the end of the game compatible with a Miranda romance for Paragon players. I don't mind the attempt, but it absolutely needed more previous character development on-screen to be convincing.

(2) The major annoyance: when talking about the base, the reason she gives in favor of destroying it is:: "Using anything from this base seems like a betrayal". Regardless how you view her change of loyalty away from Cerberus, regardless of how ruthless you think she can be or not, she never expressed even a hint of a personality aspect that would support her seeing such an irrational statement as a valid reason to destroy the base. If anything, she'd give a practical reason. Or a reason showing her increasing dissatisfaction with TIM.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 26 juin 2010 - 08:11 .

[TheSixthghoul]

Well @Ieldra2, what can you expect? This isn't the first time Bioware has done this. If you've played Jade Empire and romanced both Silk Fox and Dawn Star at the same time and got the both on closed fist, Dawn Star would revert back to open palm and friend, following the the three way and latest plot closed fist choice. Perfect example, of Bioware character what the f**k, how does that make any sense moments.

Modifié par Sixth Goul, 26 juin 2010 - 11:53 .

[Caihn]

Ieldra2 wrote...

JonDoe297 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I'd rather ignore that scene - Miranda saying such a thing has always seemed out of character to me.

I think she changes after seeing hundreds of thousands of people being abducted and killed to make a human reaper. Its character development over the course of the game, spending time with Shepard and seeing how he operates in contrast with how the Illusive man operates. Miri is only reallly loyal to Cerberus because they sheltered her from her father and let her proove herself through her actions, instead of through her genes. Then when Shepard shows her that the only reason Cerberus needs her is because of her genes, and that they use her like tool, just like her father did she relaizes that maybe its not the best place and being on Shepard's crew is a better option; where she is apreciated as a person rather than as a object.

No. Miranda is loyal to Cerberus because she believes in the agenda of "preservation and advancement of humanity". She makes that very clear in the various conversations with Shepard. If she becomes dissatisfied with TIM, it's not for the goals but the methods, and - here you may be correct - because being used as a tool may not be enough for her anymore. 

Still, her support for destroying the base comes across as character derailment. Miranda may not trust TIM as much as before, but she'd not turn from stalwart supporter to enemy in the space of two conversations with Shepard. She also has a practical mind who would not fail to see the merit of keeping the base, independently from the problem of TIM. I can see her having doubts, yes, but not more. There are two aspects to this:

(1) The minor annoyance: If you destroy the base, she resigns from Cerberus. There is some foreshadowing of that on the Collector Ship, but her change of mind still comes very suddenly. Too suddenly to be seen as character development. She didn't even speak with Shepard about it. The only time we can speak to her about Cerberus, she is still the Cerberus loyalist. How she acts at the base does not convince me and looks like character derailment, it's just a mechanism to make the end of the game compatible with a Miranda romance for Paragon players. I don't mind the attempt, but it absolutely needed more previous character development on-screen to be convincing.

(2) The major annoyance: when talking about the base, the reason she gives in favor of destroying it is:: "Using anything from this base seems like a betrayal". Regardless how you view her change of loyalty away from Cerberus, regardless of how ruthless you think she can be or not, she never expressed even a hint of a personality aspect that would support her seeing such an irrational statement as a valid reason to destroy the base. If anything, she'd give a practical reason. Or a reason showing her increasing dissatisfaction with TIM.

We will never agree on that.

Besides, this scene is one of the scenes I liked the most. It should have been in my last video, you're lucky.

Modifié par Yannkee, 26 juin 2010 - 11:19 .

[Andaius20]

[Caihn]

I don't think it is necessary to post these pictures so many times.

[Pwnisher]

Agreed, I think we've all see these pics before.

[Chimervera]

Hello Miri fans! Just dropping in to show my support for Miranda; she's one of my favourite characters in the series. Plus a little shameless plugging:

Are any of you interested in joining a Mass Effect RP? If so, a friend of mine and I have created a Play-by-Email Mass Effect roleplay/SIM called the Myrmidon Cell

In it, you play as a Cerberus operative. You are given a mission every month, and need to complete a 'mission log' detailing your actions. You can also write 'personal logs' to detail non-mission activities and flesh out your character.

The cell is based on Illium, but there will be missions in a variety of locations. The missions can range from collecting valuable intel from an informant to removing an individual
that is getting in the way.

Theres a few logs up already, though so far they're all recruiting/arriving logs. It should get more exciting once we get recruitment out of the way.

For more information, please visit the site or the group.

[TheSixthghoul]

Not to activate at the moment, I see. I guess, everyone is waiting for Ieldra2 to return, before bring up the good questions. So,what is you're prefer Miranda/Shepard combination? You know combat, class, background,personalty to mix it up. What would be her best match to balance her out. No need to go into great detail, an example is my Shepard being optimistic at the Collector Base and Miranda being pessimistic.




Anyways, here's a song goes great with those solo romances transferring to Mass Effect 2 and romancing Miranda this Air Supply - Every Woman In the World

[AndroLeonidas]

We also have to take into account... ME2 takes place over a period of several months at least. Who is to say that she and shepard don't have talks or conversations that the game does not let us see?

Who is to say that her distrust of Cerberus and TIM did not begin at an earlier time and we just don't see it?

I try to look at it in that context... yes it takes us twenty-thirty hours to play the game... but it happens over several months for the characters. To be honest... I think her questioning of Cerberus really took a turn after Shep helped her to relocate her sister. At that moment I think Miranda's eyes were opened to a whole lot of different possibilities that her life could be. We just don't see this development for obvious reasons of time constraints.

[Ieldra]

Vulgus Presencia wrote...
To be fair, I think she saw the woman getting turned into reaper paste....that could be a reason to act OOC (for the moment anyway) It would make me make hasty, irrational decisions...but I don't know really.

Even if the fate of humanity may depend on your decision. I don't know, but I very much suspect I'd detach myself from the immediate experience to weigh the consequences. The decision can then go either way, but at least it would be based on valid reasons.

Could just be she resigns because the writer thought it would be cool to have the loyalist change loyalties..

As I said, I think it's because they wanted a satisfying ending for Paragon players who romanced Miranda. If Miranda had stayed loyal to Cerberus, that would endanger the romance. I guess I'm in the minority saying that conflicting loyalties in a romance would have been interesting. But at least her resigning will make it easier for Miranda to stay with Shepard in ME3. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 juin 2010 - 06:52 .

[kraidy1117]

Ah the old OOC conversation *gets popcorn" I kid I kid. It's OOC because of what she says. If Bioware wanted her to quit Cerberus at this choice, they should have made it more believable. Hell saying "How do I know we can trust you." would have fricken worked then saying this feels like a betrayal. I thought like saying where is the Miri I know?

[Ieldra]

AndroLeonidas wrote...
We also have to take into account... ME2 takes place over a period of several months at least. Who is to say that she and shepard don't have talks or conversations that the game does not let us see?
Who is to say that her distrust of Cerberus and TIM did not begin at an earlier time and we just don't see it?
I try to look at it in that context... yes it takes us twenty-thirty hours to play the game... but it happens over several months for the characters. To be honest... I think her questioning of Cerberus really took a turn after Shep helped her to relocate her sister. At that moment I think Miranda's eyes were opened to a whole lot of different possibilities that her life could be. We just don't see this development for obvious reasons of time constraints.

How then is it that when she speaks with Shepard after her loyalty mission, she's still very much the Cerberus loyalist (Check conversation 3 in gutty47's Miranda dialogue tree)? It's all very nice to speculate that she started to question Cerberus earlier, but the single hint we have of such a thing is on the Collector ship mission when it becomes clear that TIM had knowingly sent them into a trap. And even then it's doubt of TIM, not of Cerberus as a whole. Weigh that against the conversation after her loyalty mission.

@kraidy:
Yeah, we've been over that several times. But it seems there are some people who still haven't seen it, and anyway I haven't given up. I don't mind the popcorn btw...

kraidy1117 wrote...
I thought like saying where is the Miri I know?

Yes, exactly that was my reaction as well.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 juin 2010 - 07:10 .

[kraidy1117]

*passes Ieldra popcorn* enjoy. This in my thought on the matter and you know it. It is poseable to make Miri argue and quit Cerberus without making it look OOC. However Miri would never say it feels like a betrayal. That is something Jacob would say, not Miri. Meh Bioware is making me too bitter.....

[LuxDragon]

Heya people. I thought I should let you know that I posted Miranda's loyalty mission on my fic. Let me know what you think.



http://www.fanfictio...t/s/5750868/20/

[Caihn]

kraidy1117 wrote...

*passes Ieldra popcorn* enjoy. This in my thought on the matter and you know it. It is poseable to make Miri argue and quit Cerberus without making it look OOC. However Miri would never say it feels like a betrayal. That is something Jacob would say, not Miri. Meh Bioware is making me too bitter.....

I won't argue more, but I won't change my mind. To me, the resign and the reasons why she wants destroy the base are not out of character at all, it's even logical considering the character development.

[kraidy1117]

Yannkee wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

*passes Ieldra popcorn* enjoy. This in my thought on the matter and you know it. It is poseable to make Miri argue and quit Cerberus without making it look OOC. However Miri would never say it feels like a betrayal. That is something Jacob would say, not Miri. Meh Bioware is making me too bitter.....

I won't argue more, but I won't change my mind. To me, the resign and the reasons why she wants destroy the base are not out of character at all, it's even logical considering the character development.

It's not OOC, it's how she says it that feels OOC. I am all for her quiting and showing her trust for Shepard, it's how she syas it that bugs me alot.

[Caihn]

You said she would never say it feels like a betrayal. I do not agree.
But this conversation will be endless, so I won't go further.

Time to go back to my ME1 game. See ya

Modifié par Yannkee, 27 juin 2010 - 09:25 .

[Ieldra]

LuxDragon wrote...

Heya people. I thought I should let you know that I posted Miranda's loyalty mission on my fic. Let me know what you think.

http://www.fanfictio...t/s/5750868/20/

Still at it, LuxDragon? I've submitted a very short review, mostly about how Miranda appears in your story. Mostly OK, but a few flaws IMO.

[Ieldra]

Yannkee wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

*passes Ieldra popcorn* enjoy. This in my thought on the matter and you know it. It is poseable to make Miri argue and quit Cerberus without making it look OOC. However Miri would never say it feels like a betrayal. That is something Jacob would say, not Miri. Meh Bioware is making me too bitter.....

I won't argue more, but I won't change my mind. To me, the resign and the reasons why she wants destroy the base are not out of character at all, it's even logical considering the character development.

I know I won't convince you, but perhaps you could tell me the steps you see in her character development that in your opinion logically end in her resignation and her given reason for destroying the base. Most of all, why would she think of keeping the base as a betrayal?

[Darrekx2]

*sneakin*   well from my point of view, i think the betrayel comment is fine.
1. Cerberus stands for the "advancement of humanity" and a base that produces human reapers doesn't feel right when u have this goal. I mean, if my crew was so close to be smoothied by a base to build a Reaper, i would pretty feel it like a betrayal to humanity or atleast my Crew.

2. look at the base its serves only the purpose of scanning DNA samples and try to create a Reaper with it.

In my playthrough, i like to believe that my shepard had influence on her - she was on every mission with him and on top of that, she has studied shepard to rebuilt him very close, so she can understand the decisions i make/made are for the good of humanity. I mean look at it, shepard saw a problem in saren (ME1), he doenst give up until he killed Saren and Souverign, in ME2 he "quits" beeing a Spectre/Alliance military and "joins" Cerberus only to help humanity and defeat its greatest threat (Collectors/Reapers). She knows that Shepard would do all he can to defeat the Reapers. She says hes a natural leader - a bloody icon, she has saw him in combat, his passion for humanity and if u play the "paragon" Card all time in ME2 it should influence her, that she questions TIMs methods - because she saw how it can be done without beeing a "Terrorist". Its peak is on the Collectorbase, they are close to destroy the Collectors, she saw again that Shepard got the job done his way, so the change in her mind isn't so surprising for me.
I have a conversation in my memory with her about leadership, i don't remember the right wording of it but i think the outcome is, that she is jealous on you because you inspire the people, well maybe i have inspired her so much, that she believes the base isnt necessary to defeat the Reapers.

Modifié par Darrekx2, 27 juin 2010 - 10:32 .

[AndroLeonidas]

Ieldra2 wrote...

AndroLeonidas wrote...
We also have to take into account... ME2 takes place over a period of several months at least. Who is to say that she and shepard don't have talks or conversations that the game does not let us see?
Who is to say that her distrust of Cerberus and TIM did not begin at an earlier time and we just don't see it?
I try to look at it in that context... yes it takes us twenty-thirty hours to play the game... but it happens over several months for the characters. To be honest... I think her questioning of Cerberus really took a turn after Shep helped her to relocate her sister. At that moment I think Miranda's eyes were opened to a whole lot of different possibilities that her life could be. We just don't see this development for obvious reasons of time constraints.

How then is it that when she speaks with Shepard after her loyalty mission, she's still very much the Cerberus loyalist (Check conversation 3 in gutty47's Miranda dialogue tree)? It's all very nice to speculate that she started to question Cerberus earlier, but the single hint we have of such a thing is on the Collector ship mission when it becomes clear that TIM had knowingly sent them into a trap. And even then it's doubt of TIM, not of Cerberus as a whole. Weigh that against the conversation after her loyalty mission.

@kraidy:
Yeah, we've been over that several times. But it seems there are some people who still haven't seen it, and anyway I haven't given up. I don't mind the popcorn btw...

kraidy1117 wrote...
I thought like saying where is the Miri I know?

Yes, exactly that was my reaction as well.

Again I will state that time within the game is relative. Months could pass between her loyalty mission and the end mission, especcially if you are like me and do her loyalty mission first after Horizon. What she says one month or week might not be the same six weeks or three months down the road. Nothing is shown of the interaction of her and Shepard during these times so it is all subjective and speculative. I think people are focusing too much in terms of real time playing the game. Her development seems quite normal to me and her statement at the end very believable. As with the other gentlemen I'm not going to go back and forth over this. Everyone has their own opinion and reasons.