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Miranda Lawson - our favorite woman in the galaxy (III)


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#1601
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RollaWarden wrote...

And here's another thought:

I want a moment in ME3 when Miranda at last reveals just why she devoted every waking moment of the last two years of her life to bringing Shepard back.

We know that Cerberus had been closely monitoring Shepard ever since he became a Spectre and started his mission to defeat Saren and Sovereign.  Maybe Cerberus was monitoring Shepard before that, even.  Maybe throughout his whole Alliance career before his Spectre appointment.


I think it's not a matter of love but a matter of a scientific accomplishment.  Reasons why I think she spent that much time bringing back Shep.

1.She's loyal to Cerberus at the time, she'll most likey follow orders.
2.Probably likes a good challenge.
2.Wants to achieve something great.  Bringing somebody back from the dead who was in tubes will fit the bill.
3.At the beginning of the game Illusive man and her talk about Shep being an icon that humanity can't lose.

#1602
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jtav wrote...

I want it to be nice and vague. I can imagine the happy ending for myself. I just want her to go on being a ruthless superspy, regardless of romance. And I don't wan the romance to dominate her character development. She's just as interesting without the romance, which, as I've said, I'm not a huge fan of. I prefer her with Kaidan, Thane, Jacob, or Liara. Mostly because they aren't canon and I can create them out of whole cloth.


Well if you play renegade then yeah you may feel that way.  But since I can't bring myself to play renegade or evil in ANY game then I'd want this ending.  I think most paragon players would want this ending.  I don't see romance dominating her character developmont.  If you play.......

renegade + romance= She'll sort of change.  She was a renegade in the beginning of the game but this time she'll show more emotion.
renegade + no romance = In my opinion no change at all.  Still a renegade and all business just like when you first meet her.

Paragon + romance =  I think this will have the biggest change and development.

#1603
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Maybe Bioware should make multiple LI endings depending if your paragon or renegade.

Modifié par ShadowJ20, 02 juillet 2010 - 01:53 .


#1604
jtav

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I actually play paragons/paragades. But if she stops being the coldly pragmatic woman who does what she must for the greater good, she stops being the character I love. There are lines she won't cross, but she is a Renegade regardless of whether she resigns. I like her that way. She's just less damaged and has more people she feels safe opening up to if you play Paragon.

#1605
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jtav wrote...

I actually play paragons/paragades. But if she stops being the coldly pragmatic woman who does what she must for the greater good, she stops being the character I love. There are lines she won't cross, but she is a Renegade regardless of whether she resigns. I like her that way. She's just less damaged and has more people she feels safe opening up to if you play Paragon.


Well I guess we have different views....I somewhat disagree with your statement but I respect it.  And I really don't want to get into a debate if whether a character is more good or evil. Or how they turn out...topics like that for some reasons makes me want to stop posting in the forums.

Modifié par ShadowJ20, 02 juillet 2010 - 02:19 .


#1606
TheSixthghoul

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I play renegade, her still being ruthless yes. Super spy,uh..no. Not that being a spy would be a bad thing, I don't see much of a future for a spy following renegade path. At least, until human dominance is secured and all aliens are serfs that is. Maybe, she could try politics?

Modifié par Sixth Goul, 02 juillet 2010 - 02:33 .


#1607
TheSixthghoul

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Here's a tribute to the renegade aspects of Miranda this from Kittie Cut Throat.:devil:



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#1608
Ieldra

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ShadowJ20 wrote...

jtav wrote...
I actually play paragons/paragades. But if she stops being the coldly pragmatic woman who does what she must for the greater good, she stops being the character I love. There are lines she won't cross, but she is a Renegade regardless of whether she resigns. I like her that way. She's just less damaged and has more people she feels safe opening up to if you play Paragon.


Well I guess we have different views....I somewhat disagree with your statement but I respect it.  And I really don't want to get into a debate if whether a character is more good or evil. Or how they turn out...topics like that for some reasons makes me want to stop posting in the forums.

I should mention - again - that "Renegade" does not equal "evil". It can be, but there are many Renegade decisions you can see as moral obligations, though often based on different moral domains than those usually presented as "good" in fiction. As opposed to many, I think being flexible in which moral domains to apply is desirable, and to be inflexible is pathological. Miranda is an example of that flexibiliy, and it's one of the things that makes her interesting.

I agree with jtav on the statement I've set in bold above.

#1609
Ieldra

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jtav wrote...
I promised my thoughts on the engine room scene:

--There's a tiny moment before she steps out of the elevator where she appears to be composing herself and trying to block out her "we're all gonna die" feelings.  That adds a bit of shading I find very welcome.

I didn't notice that. Nice.

--The engine room is probably the worst place they could have picked. I can't stop thinking that the room is empty because of the kidnapping, not because Miranda cleared it. Except for Tali and that just makes Miranda come off as thoughtless or even cruel.

That thought has crossed my mind, too. I wonder if there was a coordination problem between the people who designed the romance and the people who made the main plot. I manage to forget those thoughts while I play...

--I liked the actual sex scene up until she started removing her clothes. They do seem like longtime lovers.
--The dry humping, however, is ridiculous. I much prefer ME's close ups. There's something almost juvenile abou this.

QFT. ME1 did the love scenes better. It bears repeating until whoever decided on the dry-humping has it pounded into his thick skull.

--Some pre or post-coital dialogue would have really sold me on the relationship. Something that cconfirms that this isn't just a one night stand, but the start of a relationship.

Hmm. Perhaps the dialogue at the elevator could be extended a bit. In the engine room any more words would seem out of place.

And, yes, I did get both of them saving each other on the suicide mission.

Nice. I only had that luck once. Maybe I'll have it again tonight....

#1610
awpdevil

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I never understood the dry humping either lol. That was just awkward to me. The simple naked crawl and roll over kiss in me1 was intimate in nature, and to the point. Was probably the best choice without having two people mocap the sex scenes lol. Maybe they'll hire Jenna Jameson or something for 3, to help direct those situations. =P

#1611
Ieldra

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Collider wrote...
I'm not really sure I understand the alleged power imbalance in Tali's romance. She's 24, and he's only five years older. I suppose it's a matter of interpretation, but I didn't find any power imbalance when there is an open display of mutual attraction. Jtav, have you done Jack's romance? I was wondering why you felt there was a popular imbalance there too.

There is a power imbalance. And it's not because of Tali's age. It's because of her *apparent* age. When we meet her first, she comes across as a competent, self-assured woman, but in the romance she acts like a young girl with a crush who Shepard can roll over with his own self-assured demeanor (if we had an option to let him act in a less self-assured way, things could be different). As opposed to that, Miranda retains her own power even when, for instance, she's flustered for a moment from Shepard's unexpected kiss and her own unexpected response. Her half-amused response "And stop smiling, damn it", given with a smile, says she understands what's been going on and because she likes the result - even though that fact surprises her - she appreciates it.
With Jack it's even worse: she doesn't know herself and she's mentally unstable. To go for a romance feels like exploitation to me because she's so easily manipulated by what she doesn't know of herself. Jack's romance would need more time - a lot more time - to be convincing, and it would need a considerable time without sex. The first three scenes (she has one scene more than the others, but they're shorter) are very much OK, but the sex just feels wrong.

@Raizo:
I just noticed you said pretty much the same thing, LOL.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 02 juillet 2010 - 08:33 .


#1612
Ieldra

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jtav wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

The scene is not useless. There would be no sense to remove it, it's the logical conclusion of the romance.

The only thing I regret is that they should stop the scene just before she removes her clothes,


Or just do what the did in ME. What they have now feels like it was intended for immature teens who are going to go crazy over a bra shot.

QFT. I know I have already repeated it a few posts above, but the ME1 scenes were better. I wonder what they thought when designing the ME2 love scenes. I highly suspect it's anticipatory self-censorship. I don't know about the rest of the world, but where I live this won't do BioWare's reputation the least bit of good.

#1613
Spornicus

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Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

The scene is not useless. There would be no sense to remove it, it's the logical conclusion of the romance.

The only thing I regret is that they should stop the scene just before she removes her clothes,


Or just do what the did in ME. What they have now feels like it was intended for immature teens who are going to go crazy over a bra shot.

QFT. I know I have already repeated it a few posts above, but the ME1 scenes were better. I wonder what they thought when designing the ME2 love scenes. I highly suspect it's anticipatory self-censorship. I don't know about the rest of the world, but where I live this won't do BioWare's reputation the least bit of good.


Maybe they wanted to mix them up more, since the ME1 sex scene was the same for all three (with the exception of Liara's extra melding thing). That, and, as you stated, self-censorship. I don't think Bioware so much bad press like they got for ME1.

#1614
Ieldra

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ShadowJ20 wrote...
As for the engine room scene I personally thought it was great. It was really unique in my opinion because it wasn't on the typical king sized bed. Jack and Tali's romance scenes were in the Caps Quarter. If Miranda's romance scene was in the caps quarter then Miranda wouldn't really separate herself from Jack/Tali. Out of the 3 I think Miranda is the most confident one. She tells Shep where to go and when rather than waiting for Shep in the Caps Quarter. Also in the engine room it has some things that are unique..like that globe like thing and those blue lights. I think it suppose to represent imagery. When Shep and Miranda "do it" it's a a more "wondrous" place making it extra special. That's just my opinion.

I liked the scene itself as far as ME2 scenes go and apart from the location being uncomfortable. I agree their romance needed a more special location than the captain's quarter, but an observation deck with a window to open space would have been 500% more romantic and very special, too. Add a blue or red giant star in the background and it would have been even better. Perhaps something with a mood similar to the scene I posted on page 117 of thread 2.

#1615
netwitbrian

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I don't know if you guys or gals remember, but in the last Miranda thread that was set up, Miranda came on and stated that she chose the engine room because it was close to the mass effect core which heighten the "pleasure" of the "act". Even though the scene panned out and moved away, I bet when she and shep got all "worked up", they were not on the floor for long...they were floating in mid-air in a mass effect field that was intensifying the senses and making it the greatest moment ever!! lol or something like that...

#1616
TheSixthghoul

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Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

The scene is not useless. There would be no sense to remove it, it's the logical conclusion of the romance.

The only thing I regret is that they should stop the scene just before she removes her clothes,


Or just do what the did in ME. What they have now feels like it was intended for immature teens who are going to go crazy over a bra shot.

QFT. I know I have already repeated it a few posts above, but the ME1 scenes were better. I wonder what they thought when designing the ME2 love scenes. I highly suspect it's anticipatory self-censorship. I don't know about the rest of the world, but where I live this won't do BioWare's reputation the least bit of good.


Better scenes, yeah. But, they really failed when it came to establishing the relationship. Back in the naive day's before ME2, during my first playthrough of Mass Effect, I couldn't help to wonder every time I talked to Ash, when does romance? As a gamer its kind of concerning, if the romance isn't clear indicated.

I also, felt a foreshadowing concern for an Ashley's mental health. That I didn't notice until a few months. If anyone didn't know, I set up a thread a few months ago called ME 1 it one reason it shouldn't be cheating or Ripping the Cheating theory (these are before I developed my fully arguments). The reason I made it was because, I was really upset  at romanced locked. That happens when you barely say hello to ether Ash or Liara. Your in a romance with both of them and sense you barley talked to ether, you don't get a confrontation(after Virmire).

To some this up I tried everything,but on one try, Ash said the most disturbing thing. I got the mini confrontation by Ash, about Liara, so I gave it a try to break it off(still was romance locked couldn't break off with Liara),saying it was none business.I don't remember what she said but it was insane. It was something about being nice to her, that they were getting along well. There is something wrong, if the bases of a relationship is just someone being nice to you.

Yeah ME1 has better scenes<_<, ME 2 gets to the point:wub:.

#1617
Nightwriter

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RollaWarden wrote...

And here's another thought:

I want a moment in ME3 when Miranda at last reveals just why she devoted every waking moment of the last two years of her life to bringing Shepard back.

We know that Cerberus had been closely monitoring Shepard ever since he became a Spectre and started his mission to defeat Saren and Sovereign.  Maybe Cerberus was monitoring Shepard before that, even.  Maybe throughout his whole Alliance career before his Spectre appointment.


This is an incredibly good thing you've touched upon and something I think really needs to be addressed.

Not exactly why she spent her time on Shepard - that's easily explained. It was because the Illusive Man gave her an assignment. I honestly don't think there was any other reason, other than the drive of professional excellence and the longing to make the impossible possible.

However what they do need to talk about is that Miranda spent two years with nothing to do but Shepard. I always found it strange that despite the fact that he was the constant focus of two years of her time she does not treat him especially different. He is just a colleague. Even if you're playing female Shepard, Miranda has intimate familiarity with just about everything about you now and you've been a big, close part of her life for a considerable time.

#1618
Ieldra

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Sixth Goul wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

The scene is not useless. There would be no sense to remove it, it's the logical conclusion of the romance.

The only thing I regret is that they should stop the scene just before she removes her clothes,


Or just do what the did in ME. What they have now feels like it was intended for immature teens who are going to go crazy over a bra shot.

QFT. I know I have already repeated it a few posts above, but the ME1 scenes were better. I wonder what they thought when designing the ME2 love scenes. I highly suspect it's anticipatory self-censorship. I don't know about the rest of the world, but where I live this won't do BioWare's reputation the least bit of good.


Better scenes, yeah. But, they really failed when it came to establishing the relationship. Back in the naive day's before ME2, during my first playthrough of Mass Effect, I couldn't help to wonder every time I talked to Ash, when does romance? As a gamer its kind of concerning, if the romance isn't clear indicated.

Perhaps I should have specified: better love scenes. ME2 has better scenes leading up to the love scenes -  mostly because ME1 limited itself to standard conversations - but the love scenes of ME1 were better than ME2's.

#1619
TheSixthghoul

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Oh,thank you for explaining it,I agree about 90% of what you just said (excluding Miranda) about love scenes.

Question do you feel the lack of movement when talking to the characters in Mass Effect one, also hindered them, compared to Mass Effect 2?

#1620
Ieldra

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Sixth Goul wrote...
Question do you feel the lack of movement when talking to the characters in Mass Effect one, also hindered them, compared to Mass Effect 2?

I don't know what you mean by "hindered them", but I my guess is correct then yes, the fact that ME1 romance conversations involved no movement, weren't real scenes at all, made it difficult to interpret them and sometimes sent you into a romance unwillingly. That can also happen in ME2, but less easily. In ME1, if you wanted to avoid a romance, it was best not to speak with the character in question at all. Aspecially for Ashley. Liara had a "not interested that way" option that was clearly recognizeable. Don't recall how it was with Kaidan.

My main complaint about the ME2 scenes is the dry-humping. That's just silly. And the spin about "artistic choice" they tried to give it made it even sillier. I wish they'd hold games to the same standards as movies. Here we have an M-rated game with all sorts of violence, even torture scenes, but when it comes to sex even a T-rated movie shows more. Damn FoxNews - and damn Bioware for being cowards.

#1621
jtav

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I think the movement helped tremendously. My favorite moment of the romance is when she touches his chest and that would have been impossible.



I agree with 99% of what Ieldra has posted, particularly his thoughts on Miranda vis a vis the other romances and Bioware's cowardice. There are days I don't think we can agree on anything and days we seem perfectly in-sync.



I absolutely agree that the engine room scene isn't the place for talking, at least until the relationship has been consummated. I would have faded to black as she started removing her clothes and cut to them lying beside each other (ignore the floor--Bioware did) or getting dressed. That's where I'd put the conversation, though I'd have to think for a bit about the substance of it.



Anyone else wish she had more to say to/about Grunt and Okeer? Okeer sounds like her father--wanted the perfect speciman of his species and killed or disposed of his failures without remorse. Grunt is to the krogan what she is to humanity.

#1622
RollaWarden

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Nightwriter wrote...

RollaWarden wrote...

And here's another thought:

I want a moment in ME3 when Miranda at last reveals just why she devoted every waking moment of the last two years of her life to bringing Shepard back.

We know that Cerberus had been closely monitoring Shepard ever since he became a Spectre and started his mission to defeat Saren and Sovereign.  Maybe Cerberus was monitoring Shepard before that, even.  Maybe throughout his whole Alliance career before his Spectre appointment.


This is an incredibly good thing you've touched upon and something I think really needs to be addressed.

Not exactly why she spent her time on Shepard - that's easily explained. It was because the Illusive Man gave her an assignment. I honestly don't think there was any other reason, other than the drive of professional excellence and the longing to make the impossible possible.

However what they do need to talk about is that Miranda spent two years with nothing to do but Shepard. I always found it strange that despite the fact that he was the constant focus of two years of her time she does not treat him especially different. He is just a colleague. Even if you're playing female Shepard, Miranda has intimate familiarity with just about everything about you now and you've been a big, close part of her life for a considerable time.


Thanks, Nightwriter.  I should have earlier seen the parallels between Miranda/The Lazarus Project and Victor Frankenstein/his creature.  Allusions--especially in the absence of the writer's confirmation of them--are a bit of a slippery slope, but this hallmark western motif is certainly present in ME2.  If we understand the Byronic hero and Shelley's concept of him in her character Victor Frankenstein, we can understand, somewhat, Miranda's work on Shepard a bit better.

Perhaps like Victor in Frankenstein, Miranda was obsessed with achievement.  Her motives are open to speculation--here she was very nearly doing what her father did.  Like Victor Frankenstein, Miranda was driven--for whatever the reason--to complete her work, and bring it to perfection.  She achieved it.  This project, it seems to me, was much more than a simple order.  Simple orders just don't come like this one did.  Such an obsession, if we understand what Shelley might be trying to tell us, the work of a genius, borders on, and sometimes crosses over into madness.  That hyperfocus is often a quality of high intelligence or genius.

Shelley understood the line between madness and genius all too well.  Her father, William Godwin, and her husband, Percy Shelley, were both mad geniuses of a kind.  And perhaps Mary was terrified herself of her own talent.

Of course, too close a parallell/allusion won't work in any motif or archetype; it doesn't have to fit exactly.  Miranda is certainly not mad, nor is Shepard a "Frankenstein's monster."  If we try to fit an allusion to closely to the original, we find that the peg we're trying to fit into that square hole is just a little too round.

Still, an understanding of the Frankenstein myth might help us understand, a little, Miranda's work, to borrow the title from Dave Egger's book--The Lazarus Project is A Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Genius.

#1623
Ieldra

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jtav wrote...
I absolutely agree that the engine room scene isn't the place for talking, at least until the relationship has been consummated. I would have faded to black as she started removing her clothes and cut to them lying beside each other (ignore the floor--Bioware did) or getting dressed. That's where I'd put the conversation, though I'd have to think for a bit about the substance of it.

I agree that would have been better than what we've got. I'd still prefer a more ME1-style scene, but as long as Bioware continues its self-censorship, this is the best we can hope for. I don't need a sex scene, but if there is one, it should be convincing...

Anyone else wish she had more to say to/about Grunt and Okeer? Okeer sounds like her father--wanted the perfect speciman of his species and killed or disposed of his failures without remorse. Grunt is to the krogan what she is to humanity.

Very much so. Strange to think she has this in common with a krogan. It should have been something they talk about. It's also the main reason I don't let Grunt die in the suicide mission.

#1624
Ieldra

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So, I have now finished my "perfect" playthrough with my main maleShep. The only thing I couldn't do was to let someone die. This Shepard knows his squadmates and doesn't make stupid mistakes when assigning roles. Also, it's nice to watch the aftermath scene and to see Shepard walk past everyone.
Otherwise, perfect - I got to rescue Miranda on the platform and was pulled by her into the airlock. I managed to avoid her saying that "it feels like a betrayal" and even avoided having to say the line about the soul of the species. Shutting TIM off was not the best alternative - my Shepard isn't usually rude - but sometimes you can't have everything.

BTW, it's interesting to note Miranda doesn't say keeping the base was the wrong decision. She only expresses doubts and says "I hope we made the right decision". I like that - my Shepard couldn't make any other decision, but he does think about its possible unpleasant side-effects. Who wouldn't? Legion's reaction was also interesting: he noted we now had the knowledge to gain the "unity and transcendence" the Old Machines offered the heretics, and expresses its hopes that humanity doesn't use it. I also like that - having that knowledge is a precondition for making a decision about how to use it or not.

Now it remains to be seen how it will go with Miranda in ME3. I'm not sure if I should look forward to it or dread it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 02 juillet 2010 - 03:04 .


#1625
jtav

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I'm dreading it. I've seen my favorite characters butchered by their creators too many times to be anything but cynical. The number of people who want Miranda to be a softer character doesn't help. I'll probably create another MaleShep to romance her that saved the Council and Wrex. I'm a bit insane when it comes to Miranda. I know the actual romance leaves me lukewarm but she's so compelling that I feel the urge to do so anyway, as if I'll magically get the romance I wanted instead of what I have.