15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Errol Dnamyx wrote...

Under normal circumstances she wouldn´t say such a line, I agree.
But remember why she has to remind Shepard about it. She probably didn´t expect such a situation to arise in the first place and to make it as clear as possible to him, she says the aforementioned line.

So in the end, Shepards behaviour is the fault here and the reason she has to sound possessive. Don´t hate Miranda, hate Shepard.

Indeed.

But that she is possessive is not the problem. It's how she expresses it in conversation 3. If you get the conflict later, she gets more angry, but her behavior makes more sense in the light of what was going on before. Neither does it clash with other aspects of her, nor does it seem to substantiate certain accusations leveled at her.

[TheSixthghoul]

Nightwriter wrote...

It's just that this seems to confirm the territorial accusations that give birth to such theories as "Miranda banged Shepard in the engine room to rub it in Tali's face".

How is that a bad thing? I like theory,reeks of awesome renegade.

[Ieldra]

Nightwriter wrote...
I think there are certain aspects that would clash with her being possessive.

Like, for instance, her "it's not a competition" comments.

Or her strict professionalism (which felt like it fed into her "it's not a competition" comments).

Miranda seems like she wants to be very professional. She's all business. To the extent she almost didn't want to have a relationship even. Now all the sudden she wants everyone to know she's in one?

Weird.

I think that being possessive in a relationship doesn't necessarily clash with professionalism. For me, it's about the fact that she's reserved to everyone but those very close to her. In that light, I can see her shout at Shepard when there's nobody else around (if their disagreement is about the relationship and not the job, at least), but IMO she wouldn't drag others into it except, by necessity, her rival. Everything regarding their relationship would remain strictly between them.

So "Tell the other you're with me", that's, by necessity, OK, but "tell everyone you're with me", that's weird.

[Caihn]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
I think there are certain aspects that would clash with her being possessive.

Like, for instance, her "it's not a competition" comments.

Or her strict professionalism (which felt like it fed into her "it's not a competition" comments).

Miranda seems like she wants to be very professional. She's all business. To the extent she almost didn't want to have a relationship even. Now all the sudden she wants everyone to know she's in one?

Weird.

I think that being possessive in a relationship doesn't necessarily clash with professionalism. For me, it's about the fact that she's reserved to everyone but those very close to her. In that light, I can see her shout at Shepard when there's nobody else around (if their disagreement is about the relationship and not the job, at least), but IMO she wouldn't drag others into it except, by necessity, her rival. Everything regarding their relationship would remain strictly between them.

So "Tell the other you're with me", that's, by necessity, OK, but "tell everyone you're with me", that's weird.

So it's "everyone" that bother you. I think she says everyone because she wants to be sure no one will try something. Maybe she not only fears jack and tali.

[Jebel Krong]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
I think there are certain aspects that would clash with her being possessive.

Like, for instance, her "it's not a competition" comments.

Or her strict professionalism (which felt like it fed into her "it's not a competition" comments).

Miranda seems like she wants to be very professional. She's all business. To the extent she almost didn't want to have a relationship even. Now all the sudden she wants everyone to know she's in one?

Weird.

I think that being possessive in a relationship doesn't necessarily clash with professionalism. For me, it's about the fact that she's reserved to everyone but those very close to her. In that light, I can see her shout at Shepard when there's nobody else around (if their disagreement is about the relationship and not the job, at least), but IMO she wouldn't drag others into it except, by necessity, her rival. Everything regarding their relationship would remain strictly between them.

So "Tell the other you're with me", that's, by necessity, OK, but "tell everyone you're with me", that's weird.

it's a small ship: given her natural dominance/leadership qualities, it's not out of bounds for her to subconciously "mark her territory." especially given jack's nature...

[TheSixthghoul]

I have to say as a Miranda appreciator, I like her Loyalty Mission. But, as a writer, I find it really contradicts her established character,her dominate renegade side and doesn't logically establish a paragon side. I wanted to no what everyone thinks, if they felt the same way?

I'm also concerned of those paragon purist, who romance Miranda based off her loyalty, instead of personalty.

Modifié par Sixth Goul, 06 juillet 2010 - 12:18 .

[Caihn]

Sixth Goul wrote...

I have to say as a Miranda appreciator, I like her Loyalty Mission. But, as a writer, I find it really contradicts her established character,her dominate renegade side and doesn't logically establish a paragon side. I wanted to no what everyone thinks, if they felt the same way?

I'm also concerned of those paragon purist, who romance Miranda based off her loyalty, instead of personalty.

To me Miri is paragade. Her paragon and renegade side are logically established. Her character is not easy to understand the first time, but playing paragon with her help a lot.
But I prefer my paragade shep, they are perfect together.

I don't understand your question about romancing her for her loyalty or her personality. I always romance miri for her personnality. If you refer to the resignation, it has nothing to do with the romance, non romanced miranda resign too.

[Ieldra]

Sixth Goul wrote...
I have to say as a Miranda appreciator, I like her Loyalty Mission. But, as a writer, I find it really contradicts her established character,her dominate renegade side and doesn't logically establish a paragon side. I wanted to no what everyone thinks, if they felt the same way?

I don't think it goes against her established character. Being mainly Renegade doesn't prevent you from having strong personal loyalties and empathy, it only means you often overrule your empathy and personal loyalties for the mission, the greater good etc..In Miranda's loyalty mission, there is no other priority Oriana's safety can be sacrificed for.
You're correct, however, when you say her loyalty mission doesn't necessarily establish a Paragon side. Her loyalty mission is about a personal connection she has, not about her attitude to people and morality in general.

I'm also concerned of those paragon purist, who romance Miranda based off her loyalty, instead of personalty.

Paragon and Renegade Shepards alike can establish a personal connection to Miranda through her loyalty mission. I don't think the interpretation that Miranda moves to the Paragon side during her loyalty mission, even if you make her speak with Oriana, has much substance, but it leaves an interpretation loophole for Paragon players who want to romance her - reasonably Paragon players should have to wait until the end of the suicide mission if they really want to restrict themselves to LIs with compatible outlooks. 

[jtav]

Anyone ever get the sense that Miranda's romance was written by two different people, one of whom was chasing the lowest common denominator? There are aspects of the romance that I like (the hug, her lines post-loyalty mission) and stuff I hate (jealousy dialogues, engine room scene, "Oh, I'm definitely interested). The question is: which aspect will dominate in ME3?

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Anyone ever get the sense that Miranda's romance was written by two different people, one of whom was chasing the lowest common denominator? There are aspects of the romance that I like (the hug, her lines post-loyalty mission) and stuff I hate (jealousy dialogues, engine room scene, "Oh, I'm definitely interested). The question is: which aspect will dominate in ME3?

I think Miranda's character has been compromised by two aspects: the fanservice elements (might as well call it the lowest common denominator) and the need to make her romanceable for Paragon Shepards. All in all, though, considering that they only had a few conversations to create and develop her character, I think she's rather well-made.
I also think her character concept changed during development to make her more approachable and make her less of a femme fatale (with whom romance usually doesn't end well - I guess they didn't want that). Mostly, I appreciate that. Mostly.

[jtav]

Speaking as someone who plays squeaky clean paragons, I like her personality. She isn't malicious or sadistic, just pragmatic. She provides a check on boundless idealism. In the "real world" doing things like opening Grunt's pod or doing the suicide mission with even one disloyal member could be disastrous. Legion might try to kill you. She's the type of person who'll be worrying about logistics and supply lines when the hero wants to raise an army to crush the Dark Lord. The ME series is heavily idealistic, so I've figured out that I'm not going to pay for doing "the right thing." She'd fit better in DAO.

[jtav]

As for their differing outlooks and loyalties, I see that as a feature and not a bug. There's pitential for good, serious conflict there. It's conflict that drives stories. I've always imagined that Miranda was responsible for terminating Shep if s/he became problematic. Think of what the relationship would have been like if they'd made it explicit.

[Pacifien]

I think they could have made Miranda romanceable for Paragon Shepards without compromising her own ideals and personality. Look at Garrus. He's always leaned a bit toward the Renegade, but people will romance him regardless of their Shepard's Paragon/Renegade status. It's the classic gut reaction that Renegade = Slightly Evil for many people. Miranda gets the job done, she's a Renegade, but she's not some loose cannon Renegade or racist Renegade or the various other varieties of Renegade that Shepards can be. You can play Shepard as a pragmatic and focused Renegade as well -- that's the kind of Renegade Miranda happens to be.

So what's so hard about making that kind of Miranda appealing to a Paragon Shepard? It's not like she is incapable of caring or showing that she is more than just the person you see focused on the mission.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Speaking as someone who plays squeaky clean paragons, I like her personality. She isn't malicious or sadistic, just pragmatic. She provides a check on boundless idealism. In the "real world" doing things like opening Grunt's pod or doing the suicide mission with even one disloyal member could be disastrous. Legion might try to kill you. She's the type of person who'll be worrying about logistics and supply lines when the hero wants to raise an army to crush the Dark Lord. The ME series is heavily idealistic, so I've figured out that I'm not going to pay for doing "the right thing." She'd fit better in DAO.

Yeah, that's bothering me about ME3 - I foresee that Renegade players won't get a satisfying outcome. My own Shepards tend to be mixed slightly leaning to Paragon, but I'm one of those who tend to make Renegade decisions at the big main plot junctions even if I make none anywhere else, because where, if not there, does the end justify the means.
I find Miranda's mix very compatible with my own preference, and as for the conflict potential you mentioned in the other post: I'm quite appreciative of the fact that with Miranda, there is an LI character where I can foresee no fundamental conflicts with my preferred way of doing things. That's unique. That Cyrus Shepard and Miranda will, for instance, have a debate about the merits of keeping or destroying the Collector base at some time, or about the ethics of control chips with switched roles, doesn't change that fundamental compatibility.

[jtav]

I figure the Renegade end will be humanity grinding the galaxy under his heel. Drew's fascination with Star Wars is really quite obvious. What annoys me most is that pure Renegades get less content. I've lost the will to play Renegade in ME because I get almost the same bare bones ME2 game as I would not importing.

[Pacifien]

I still wish that instead of using the Paragon/Renegade system simply as a reflection of choice that instead it actually altered how people responded to Shepard and what options present themselves to Shepard in resolving a mission. I always thought a Paragon should succeed in working around Illium with some sort of fake charm while a Renegade should succeed better around Tuchanka.

[TheSixthghoul]

Wow, I made a mistake. I meant what she say's (if you talk to her before about, before her loyalty mission) about Cerberus the mission summary pretty much contradicts that. Would it be to far to say it comes off as a last minute add on mission summary?



Another correction,I shouldn't have called it her paragon side, instead her redeemable quality. Which makes it easier for the masses to relate to, instead of a smaller minority, who's willing to look pass her work with Cerberus.



To keep this short, I see to different views points.



A. Miranda enjoys working with Cerberus and pretty much advocates everything they do.

Who would have Join regardless.



B. Miranda is a victim,tricked into joining Cerberus and offering her services in exchange for protection from her father.



Nether one is even truly address at any point after the loyalty mission,which in fact should have been addressed at least before the suicide mission.

[jtav]

There's a third option:



C. Miranda believes in Cerberus and enjoys her work with them. However, things like Teltin and Akuze are repellent to her. She resigns because she can no longer pass those off as rogue cells and she's come to understand just how expendable she is.



That's my view.

[Pacifien]

Sometimes I wonder just how much Miranda knew about the Illusive Man's other Cerberus operations. She helps Jacob curb a batarian threat to the Council. She's used to obtain Shepard's body and bringing it back to life. She's used to combat the Collector threat. All jobs that are for a greater purpose not just for humanity, but the galaxy as a whole.

I've always imagined the Illusive Man to be incredibly savvy and smart, able to size up Miranda's character from the moment he recruited her. Knowing just where her moral limits are and finding missions that best suited her because of that. Could Miranda ever have done Project Overlord? No, never. Instead, the Illusive Man picks a scientist he knew would push the limits of ethics and beyond.

Anyway, that's how I figure Miranda could actually be taken by surprise by the Collector ship trap. She's finally been sent on a mission where she can see just how much of a pawn she is to the Illusive Man, much like she was to her father. Actually, that in itself would be enough to rattle her belief to its core -- she ran away from her father because the idea of being that pawn was so distasteful to her.

Modifié par Pacifien, 06 juillet 2010 - 03:27 .

[Ieldra]

Pacifien wrote...
Sometimes I wonder just how much Miranda knew about the Illusive Man's other Cerberus operations. She helps Jacob curb a batarian threat to the Council. She's used to obtain Shepard's body and bringing it back to life. She's used to combat the Collector threat. All jobs that are for a greater purpose not just for humanity, but the galaxy as a whole.

I've always imagined the Illusive Man to be incredibly savvy and smart, able to size up Miranda's character from the moment he recruited her. Knowing just where her moral limits are and finding missions that best suited her because of that. Could Miranda ever have done Project Overlord? No, never. Instead, the Illusive Man picks a scientist he knew would push the limits of ethics and beyond.

Anyway, that's how I figure Miranda could actually be taken by surprise by the Collector ship trap. She's finally been sent on a mission where she can see just how much of a pawn she is to the Illusive Man, much like she was to her father. Actually, that in itself would be enough to rattle her belief to its core -- she ran away from her father because the idea of being that pawn was so distasteful to her.

While I agree with your assessment of TIM, your estimation of Miranda's motives contradicts what Miranda herself says: she pretty much admits she's a tool and says it helps her find meaning in how she was created. So being a tool won't bother her too much, as long as it's for a worthwile goal. She says that, too, when she contrasts her father's goals with those of Cerberus.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 juillet 2010 - 03:42 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...

There's a third option:

C. Miranda believes in Cerberus and enjoys her work with them. However, things like Teltin and Akuze are repellent to her. She resigns because she can no longer pass those off as rogue cells and she's come to understand just how expendable she is.

That's my view.

Signed.

[RollaWarden]

When Miranda explains Cerberus experiments, it's almost like she "drank the Blue Kool-Aid"; she responds to Shepard's questions like someone who's made herself believe the Cerberus company line. Yvonne Strahovski's a skilled enough actor that she can convey intent through intonation and pitch. Miranda has spouted the "company line" so many times that she quickly responds to Shepard's questions like she's heard them a thousand times before. Nicely done, I thought.

[Pacifien]

Ieldra2 wrote...
While I agree with your assessment of TIM, your estimation of Miranda's motives contradicts what Miranda herself says: she pretty much admits she's a tool and says it helps her find meaning in how she was created. So being a tool won't bother her too much, as long as it's for a worthwile goal. She says that, too, when she contrasts her father's goals with those of Cerberus.

Ah, true. Still, something about the trap the Illusive Man set on the Collector ship went contrary to everything she ever knew about him. Maybe because she had always been treated as a valuable asset to him and suddenly she's realized he'd cast her aside as easily as any other if he needed to.

I just thought of the Bride's comment to Bill in Kill Bill when she said she knew he was a ruthless bastard but she never thought he'd be that way to her. Same with Miranda.

[TheSixthghoul]

Hm.. Its that everyone has a sort of different view.



I wonder can we agree Mirandas ethic's should have been addressed before the collector base, if they were ever truly addressed at all ?

[Ieldra]

Sixth Goul wrote...

Hm.. Its that everyone has a sort of different view.

I wonder can we agree Mirandas ethic's should have been addressed before the collector base, if they were ever truly addressed at all ?

I like the fact that by interpreting her actions differently, her ethic has degrees of freedom. So, no, I don't think this should have been addressed more than it has.