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[TheSixthghoul]

Here's a thought, what if were looking at this the wrong way? The way it seems, we all have valid points that can be proven by game play or lack there of. What if its less of what her moral values are and more on what she values? Consider this (sense it seems to always come back to this), how different is the Collector Base from the Reaper Iff ?

[Caihn]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
Sometimes I wonder just how much Miranda knew about the Illusive Man's other Cerberus operations. She helps Jacob curb a batarian threat to the Council. She's used to obtain Shepard's body and bringing it back to life. She's used to combat the Collector threat. All jobs that are for a greater purpose not just for humanity, but the galaxy as a whole.

I've always imagined the Illusive Man to be incredibly savvy and smart, able to size up Miranda's character from the moment he recruited her. Knowing just where her moral limits are and finding missions that best suited her because of that. Could Miranda ever have done Project Overlord? No, never. Instead, the Illusive Man picks a scientist he knew would push the limits of ethics and beyond.

Anyway, that's how I figure Miranda could actually be taken by surprise by the Collector ship trap. She's finally been sent on a mission where she can see just how much of a pawn she is to the Illusive Man, much like she was to her father. Actually, that in itself would be enough to rattle her belief to its core -- she ran away from her father because the idea of being that pawn was so distasteful to her.

While I agree with your assessment of TIM, your estimation of Miranda's motives contradicts what Miranda herself says: she pretty much admits she's a tool and says it helps her find meaning in how she was created. So being a tool won't bother her too much, as long as it's for a worthwile goal. She says that, too, when she contrasts her father's goals with those of Cerberus.

To me, at the end Miranda doesn't want to be a tool anymore.
I think it's one of the reasons of her resignation.

[Pacifien]

Yannkee wrote...
To me, at the end Miranda doesn't want to be a tool anymore.
I think it's one of the reasons of her resignation.

That's a good point. Some of the other romances are about Shepard showing the love interest that they can be more than what they are. The same could be said for the romance with Miranda: her time with Shepard has shown she can be more than a tool to be used.

[Caihn]

Pacifien wrote...

Yannkee wrote...
To me, at the end Miranda doesn't want to be a tool anymore.
I think it's one of the reasons of her resignation.

That's a good point. Some of the other romances are about Shepard showing the love interest that they can be more than what they are. The same could be said for the romance with Miranda: her time with Shepard has shown she can be more than a tool to be used.

Yes but I think it's only true if you play mostly paragon with her.

[TheSixthghoul]

Not that I have a problem with Miranda resigning,but because she doesn't want to be a tool is silly.Isn't that what an employee is?

[Ieldra]

Yannkee wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Yannkee wrote...
To me, at the end Miranda doesn't want to be a tool anymore.
I think it's one of the reasons of her resignation.

That's a good point. Some of the other romances are about Shepard showing the love interest that they can be more than what they are. The same could be said for the romance with Miranda: her time with Shepard has shown she can be more than a tool to be used.

Yes but I think it's only true if you play mostly paragon with her.

What does it depend on except what you say in the second (non-romance) conversation? I don't see any particular connection between her developing a wish to be more than an expendable tool and Paragon-ning her romance.

[jtav]

The only thing her romance has to do with her being seen as more than a tool is the "You give your father too much credit" is romance exclusive (my one great regret). I don't think that counts as Paragon-ing her romance. The overwhelming majority of her character development isn't even romance exclusive. Heck, you get a special scene with her if you have no romance in either game.

I'm not sure of this, but I think she may be the character whose development is most divorced from her romance. Words cannot describe how refreshing I find that. I can romance other people and still experience most of her character. I can play a FemShep (though I'm having trouble for other reasons). Her romance is a luxury--a treat--not the only way I can help her.

Modifié par jtav, 06 juillet 2010 - 05:39 .

[Caihn]

Sixth Goul wrote...

Not that I have a problem with Miranda resigning,but because she doesn't want to be a tool is silly.Isn't that what an employee is?

Maybe for you, not for me and not for my shepards.
And I said I think it's ONE OF THE REASONS.

[Caihn]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Yannkee wrote...
To me, at the end Miranda doesn't want to be a tool anymore.
I think it's one of the reasons of her resignation.

That's a good point. Some of the other romances are about Shepard showing the love interest that they can be more than what they are. The same could be said for the romance with Miranda: her time with Shepard has shown she can be more than a tool to be used.

Yes but I think it's only true if you play mostly paragon with her.

What does it depend on except what you say in the second (non-romance) conversation? I don't see any particular connection between her developing a wish to be more than an expendable tool and Paragon-ning her romance.

How Shepard make her feel she's not a tool but a human above all :

Shepard: Even with all your upgrades, you're human just like the rest of us.

Shepard: You are who you are, Miranda. You don't need to make excuses for it.

Shepard: Your spirit and personality are what make you great. It's what makes anyone great.

Shepard: I can't admire your body or your mind? You give your father too much credit. Yeah, he gave you gifts, but you can be proud of what you've done with them.

These lines are not renegade I think.

Modifié par Yannkee, 06 juillet 2010 - 06:04 .

[TheKillerAngel]

Regarding the "Everybody on this ship needs to know that you're mine" thing, perhaps I should be clearer on how to get her to say that.

1. After you do her loyalty mission, go to her and talk. She thanks you. The dialogue choices you select in this conversation have no impact on future events.

2. Converse with her again. This should be the conversation in which she apologizes for underestimating you; it is also the conversation in which you can initiate a relationship with her. You can either say she's hard to compliment (paragon) or accuse her of being jealous and kiss her (renegade). Each path will result in different entrances to the second conversation with her.

3. Avoid speaking to her a again until you have an established romance with either Tali or Jack (i.e. they have no new conversation options after missions are completed).

4. Go back to Miranda and talk. What she says depends on how you handled the first encounter. If you chose the Paragon dialogue options, she will say "Everybody on this ship needs to know you're mine." If you chose the Renegade options (and kissed her) she will say "And if you think anything like that's going to happen while you're doing the same with someone else, you're very mistaken."

Modifié par TheKillerAngel, 06 juillet 2010 - 06:31 .

[Ieldra]

Yannkee wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Yannkee wrote...
To me, at the end Miranda doesn't want to be a tool anymore.
I think it's one of the reasons of her resignation.

That's a good point. Some of the other romances are about Shepard showing the love interest that they can be more than what they are. The same could be said for the romance with Miranda: her time with Shepard has shown she can be more than a tool to be used.

Yes but I think it's only true if you play mostly paragon with her.

What does it depend on except what you say in the second (non-romance) conversation? I don't see any particular connection between her developing a wish to be more than an expendable tool and Paragon-ning her romance.

How Shepard make her feel she's not a tool but a human above all :

Shepard: Even with all your upgrades, you're human just like the rest of us.

Shepard: You are who you are, Miranda. You don't need to make excuses for it.

Shepard: Your spirit and personality are what make you great. It's what makes anyone great.

Shepard: I can't admire your body or your mind? You give your father too much credit. Yeah, he gave you gifts, but you can be proud of what you've done with them.

These lines are not renegade I think.

Correct. But except for the last, they're not from the romance conversations but from those before and within the  loyalty mission. I usually use these options. Within the romance, I usually take the Renegade options. Having to forego "You give your father too much credit...." admittedly hurts a bit, but I don't like the "admire" lines that come with it.

[Caihn]

TheKillerAngel wrote...

Regarding the "Everybody on this ship needs to know that you're mine" thing, perhaps I should be clearer on how to get her to say that.

1. After you do her loyalty mission, go to her and talk. She thanks you. The dialogue choices you select have no impact on future events in this conversation.

2. Converse with her again. This should be the conversation in which she apologizes for underestimating you; it is also the conversation in which you can initiate a relationship with her. You can either say she's hard to compliment (paragon) or accuse her of being jealous and kiss her (renegade). Each path will result in different entrances to the second conversation with her.

3. Avoid speaking to her a second time until you have an established romance with either Tali or Jack (i.e. they have no new conversation options after missions are completed).

4. Go back to Miranda and talk. What she says depends on how you handled the first encounter. If you chose the Paragon dialogue options, she will say "Everybody on this ship needs to know you're mine. If you chose the Renegade options (and kissed her) she will say "And if you think anything like that's going to happen while you're doing the same with someone else, you're very mistaken."

Thanks.

I like both reactions. Maybe I interpret the first one not like most people interpret it, but to me it's something Miranda can say.

[Caihn]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Yannkee wrote...
To me, at the end Miranda doesn't want to be a tool anymore.
I think it's one of the reasons of her resignation.

That's a good point. Some of the other romances are about Shepard showing the love interest that they can be more than what they are. The same could be said for the romance with Miranda: her time with Shepard has shown she can be more than a tool to be used.

Yes but I think it's only true if you play mostly paragon with her.

What does it depend on except what you say in the second (non-romance) conversation? I don't see any particular connection between her developing a wish to be more than an expendable tool and Paragon-ning her romance.

How Shepard make her feel she's not a tool but a human above all :

Shepard: Even with all your upgrades, you're human just like the rest of us.

Shepard: You are who you are, Miranda. You don't need to make excuses for it.

Shepard: Your spirit and personality are what make you great. It's what makes anyone great.

Shepard: I can't admire your body or your mind? You give your father too much credit. Yeah, he gave you gifts, but you can be proud of what you've done with them.

These lines are not renegade I think.

Correct. But except for the last, they're not from the romance conversations but from those before and within the  loyalty mission. I usually use these options. Within the romance, I usually take the Renegade options. Having to forego "You give your father too much credit...." admittedly hurts a bit, but I don't like the "admire" lines that come with it.

Yes but I think it's only true if you play mostly paragon with her.

I was referring to all paragon lines not only romance ones. 

Modifié par Yannkee, 06 juillet 2010 - 06:30 .

[jtav]

For me, it's not a matter of how I interpret them because I'm willing to downplay it. But I do worry that Bioware sees her character as appealing solely on a fanservice level and she'll be nothing more than a sex kitten who can shoot for ME3. If that's their plan, I don't want her back.

[Caihn]

jtav wrote...

For me, it's not a matter of how I interpret them because I'm willing to downplay it. But I do worry that Bioware sees her character as appealing solely on a fanservice level and she'll be nothing more than a sex kitten who can shoot for ME3. If that's their plan, I don't want her back.

Why would they do this ? It's one of the best written character of ME2. I can't believe they would let the character becoming so uninteresting.
I don't think it's the vision of those who wrote Miranda character.

[Ieldra]

TheKillerAngel wrote...

Regarding the "Everybody on this ship needs to know that you're mine" thing, perhaps I should be clearer on how to get her to say that.

1. After you do her loyalty mission, go to her and talk. She thanks you. The dialogue choices you select in this conversation have no impact on future events.

2. Converse with her again. This should be the conversation in which she apologizes for underestimating you; it is also the conversation in which you can initiate a relationship with her. You can either say she's hard to compliment (paragon) or accuse her of being jealous and kiss her (renegade). Each path will result in different entrances to the second conversation with her.

3. Avoid speaking to her a again until you have an established romance with either Tali or Jack (i.e. they have no new conversation options after missions are completed).

4. Go back to Miranda and talk. What she says depends on how you handled the first encounter. If you chose the Paragon dialogue options, she will say "Everybody on this ship needs to know you're mine." If you chose the Renegade options (and kissed her) she will say "And if you think anything like that's going to happen while you're doing the same with someone else, you're very mistaken."

I'm sorry to say that this is incorrect. I have just tested it and I've been unable to get the "Everybody needs to know..." line in the second romance conversation (the one that ends with Promise/No Promise).

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 juillet 2010 - 07:09 .

[awpdevil]

You have to have tali or jack maxed out in the romance dialogue before you even start with Miranda.

[TheKillerAngel]

awpdevil wrote...

You have to have tali or jack maxed out in the romance dialogue before you even start with Miranda.

Yeah, pretty much this.

[Caihn]

A little hug from Miri before going to sleep ...

 

Good night !

[Melra]

Nightie Yannkee.

[Collider]

Here is the video.

[Ieldra]

TheKillerAngel wrote...

awpdevil wrote...

You have to have tali or jack maxed out in the romance dialogue before you even start with Miranda.

Yeah, pretty much this.

Ah...It's not symmetric. And I believe there's also a bug. Here's what my tests have resulted in:

(Note that "first romance conversation" refers to the one that ends in "I'm admiring it now"/[Kiss her] and "second romance conversation" refers to the one ending with Promise/No Promise)

(1) If you get past the last romance conversation with Tali or Jack before starting the first romance conversation with Miranda, and then do Miranda's two conversations in sequence without doing any other romance conversation with someone else between them, then the line "Everyone needs to know...." appears in the second romance conversation if you chose "You're hard to compliment/admiration" in the first, and "If you think anything like that will happen again..." appears in the second if you chose [Kiss her] in the first. That makes some sense.

(2) But if you insert a romance conversation with someone else between Miranda's two, then you will always get "If you think anything like that will happen again...." regardless of what you said earlier. This may be a bug....

(3) You will never get a conflict response during the first romance conversation with anyone, only in the last.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 juillet 2010 - 08:40 .