15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Prudii Aden]

Good points Collider. The major difference between Mr Lawson and Rael'Zorah is that while Rael did push Tali, at least he didn't create her from his own genes and dispose of any that failed to meet his exacting standards.

[Collider]

Prudii Aden wrote...

Good points Collider. The major difference between Mr Lawson and Rael'Zorah is that while Rael did push Tali, at least he didn't create her from his own genes and dispose of any that failed to meet his exacting standards.

Of course. But in addition to what I listed on the previous page (link for those who haven't seen it yet), both fathers wanted their daughters a specific way. Tali was supposed to be the epitome of the Quarian people - a servant to the Fleet with the best engineering skills possible. Miranda was supposed to be a "perfect woman."

It's not the same, but Miranda and Tali both reacted in similar ways to their upbringing. They ended up spending their lives in service to other people. In their romances, they are hesitant and worry about the effect the romance will have on the suicide mission. Because they keep thinking about other people or other motives besides their own happiness. 

So I think more than anyone else, Tali is most like Miranda and vice versa.

Jack is hedonist to the extreme. She's always been doing things for herself. She pretty much reacted opposite to how Tali and Miranda reacted to how they were brought up - Jack lashed out, rebelled, and became an unruly societal deviant moving from one pleasure to the next. Jack really virtually only cares about herself unless you do her romance. Jack's romance is about Jack starting to care about other people. It's the opposite to Miranda and Tali (whose romances are more like starting to care about themselves).

Perhaps that is why Miranda and Jack are so much aligned against each other in game - they are like opposites of each other.

Modifié par Collider, 09 juillet 2010 - 12:09 .

[TheSixthghoul]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Sixth Goul wrote...
Where did this classical music come from?

If you let Miranda talk to her sister and then ask her about it later, she mentions they share the same love for a certain classical piece.

This one..

Wouldn't the music of today be the classical of tomorrow? I wouldn't be surprised if Miranda listens to Lady Gaga. Does anyone have any idea's of what  today's modern music Miranda would listen to? I thinkSSQ .

[jtav]

*shudders at the thought of Miranda enjoying techno-pop* Yes, I'm a snob.



I feel like throwing a party for having a productive writing day. Miranda/Liara, but I'm happy.

[Collider]

Miranda listening to Lady Gaga? That's...unlikely. Seemingly so, anyway. I like to think that Miranda would listen to classical music.

[Collider]

Acadaca wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
 
Then it's all, "How cruel you are, stepping on Tali's feelings like that!" Give it a rest, people. Tali is not that weak. I think people are more upset by it than she would be. /rant

I agree with you there; when you're trying to romance Tali and another, Tali does say she understands if you'd rather find comfort in someone else and she wouldn't hold it against you if you chose the other (whoever it may be).

Indeed.

[awpdevil]

She listens to Faunts. nuff said.

[Ieldra]

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...
I personally think it's completely unreasonable to expect that Tali ACTUALLY is in Engineering all the time, or that Garrus is always with the guns, or Jacob always in the Armory, etc. The only reason they are in the game was because it would be impossible for Bioware to model the dynamics of the entire SR-2 crew, where people would be moving, eating, sleeping...in general, doing stuff and moving about.

Actually, it's not impossible at all, but rather easy. Some games (Gothic Series, Morrowind) did it very well, and for a whole town or castle. There are three reasons they didn't do it: (1) it seems ME2's design philosophy was not to model anything not needed for actual gameplay (which resulted in the feeling the world is dis-integrated I complained about in this thread), so we don't see where most crew members and squadmates sleep, among other things. If you don't model a reasonably complete world, it makes no sense to model AI dynamics. (2) Many players complain if they have to think for a second (for instance, take a second to look at the in-world clock) in order to find NPCs. (3) ME2 doesn't model world time, which makes implementing AI dynamics impossible.

Apart from that, I agree: that we can always find Tali in the engineering section is a gameplay convenience. She must sleep somewhere. So, Shepard and Miranda can meet in the engine room when Tali's not around.

And I'm glad. How annoying would it be to have to chase each team member around the Normandy to unlock their loyalty mission?

Not annoying at all, with the right implementation, for instance with enough in-game information about where to find whom at certain times. But as I said, ME2 doesn't simulate world time, and without that it's impossible.

[Ieldra]

Collider wrote...
I found a lot of parallels between Miranda's father and Tali's father. They were both rather controlling of their daughters. In some way, I think that they felt like their daughter was a trophy or something to be presented to other people. Tali was put through the most rigorous military and engineering training in the Quarian Fleet. Considering he is an important Admiral, Rael probably thought he could do no less than that.

There is no evidence at all that Rael was controlling. In fact, he was mostly absent so it's more reasonable to assume that while there was more pressure from others because of her father, Tali had more freedom than others from her father's influence - at least more freedom than other quarians, which might not be that much compared to human standards. It's also never been mentioned that she had training above the usual (or was it? If yes, where?), and no evidence at all that this training was forced on her. If anything, I get the impression that her engineering expertise is something she values herself. There is also no evidence at all that Rael wanted to present his daughter as a trophy.

So far, not much similarity....

Both fathers never really show they cared. Rael did care, but he never indicated so until it was too late. They were never shown love by their fathers - Miranda's father because he cared more about his empire - and Rael because he cared more about politics.

Granted.

Therefore, both women had to rely on others as "family." Cerberus became Miranda's family. The Fleet was Tali's family. When you have such a large amount of obligations as Cerberus or the Fleet would entail, that is going to affect you. That is a heavy burden on you. What resulted is that Miranda and Tali both had lives dedicated to other people. They almost never do things for themselves. It's always the projects, it's always the fleet, it's always the suicide mission. Their romances are really about them doing something for themselves for once, to treat themselves. To show them that they are not tools, but real people. That it is not selfish to want to be happy.

The difference is that to work for the good of all is a major aspect of quarian culture, so it wouldn't feel unnatural for Tali. For all quarians, the Fleet is the family to some degree, and I can imagine that to put family members before the fleet is frowned upon in quarian culture. That this isn't so much a problem for Tali shows in her romance - for as opposed to what you said, it isn't a topic at all. Tali's romance is about overcoming species barriers. While for Miranda, that she feels she's a tool is a major topic in the conversations with her and in her romance. If anything, this aspect shows the differences between them instead of the similarity.

I even saw parallels in their loyalty missions. Miranda and Tali both had people who they thought they could trust. Miranda had Nikhet. Tali had the Fleet/Rael. In their loyalty missions, they first go through denial. They couldn't have done this. They couldn't have betrayed me. It would be counter to everything they had known. But no. They were both used for someone's elses' motives. Nikhet wanted the money that Miranda's father had to offer.

Again, I say the differences are more apparent than the similarities. Rael did not betray Tali personally. In fact, he didn't even betray the fleet. He broke laws out of a misguided attempt to expedite the reclaiming of the homeworld. He can be seen as a tragic figure, and Tali reacts accordingly - she knows quarian culture will damn Rael for what he did, but she is disinclined to do so herself because she knew Rael was misguided rather than intentionally treasonous. Niket, on the other hand, did betray Miranda and it was very personal. Miranda reacts accordingly and want to shoot him.

The Admiralty Board used Tali, someone who was supposed to be a well respected member of the Fleet, for their own political agendas.

So both Miranda and Tali were tossed under the bus by people who were supposed to be trustworthy - really - among the only people they thought they could trust.

I think I have shown that the differences outweigh the similarities there.

At the end of their loyalty missions, they are willing to forsake their own happiness, again - for other people. Miranda is willing to never get the chance to speak to her sister, so that her sister is safe. Tali is willing to be exiled and her reputation destroyed so that the horrible nature of the experiments is never let out, so the safety of the Fleet and her father's image is not compromised.

For Miranda, I think she's afraid of making an emotional connection and justifies her decision with safety considerations. Tali's motivation is to save her father's reputation, which is hypocritical in itself. I also cannot see much concern for other people, since her father is dead and I can't see the safety of the fleet damaged by revealing the evidence. Instead, having her father's reputation damaged would also damage the war faction, which Tali clearly supports. I don't see much similarity there.

I'm surprised many people do not pick up on these similarities. Miranda and Tali are similar in many regards. They are workaholics who have dedicated their lives to other people.

To say Miranda has dedicated her work to other people gives a very misleading impression of her personality. She can be said to work for a people, but not for people, she never individualizes the people whose benefit she works for. Also, she's quite prepared to sacrifice an individual for the benefit of the whole. For her, humanity is more one abstract entity than a collection of real people. This contrasts sharply with Tali's social nature. I find it not at all surprising that most people consider Tali and Miranda very different. Because they are.

They are both strong women who are geniuses among their races. And their fathers shaped who they are.

I will also add that the factions that Tali and Miranda are affiliated with are pretty much demonized by the galaxy. Cerberus is known as a terrorist organization. The Quarians are stigmatized as thieves, beggars, and scum. Yet they were tireless defenders of their affiliations - and both were strong enough to tell their faction to go to hell when they feel betrayed.

I grant you that Tali and Miranda have more in common with each other than with Jack. But really, that's not saying much. And even then, consider how both Miranda and Jack were viewed as an embodiment of an abstract ideal (the perfect woman, the perfect biotic), so there is a viewpoint from which they are similar as well. In the end, if you consider their personalities, they are very different from each other. Depending on how you view their history - which can be viewed from different perspectives as shown above - it's either because of or in spite of their respective backgrounds and personal stories.

[Ieldra]

Sixth Goul wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Sixth Goul wrote...
Where did this classical music come from?

If you let Miranda talk to her sister and then ask her about it later, she mentions they share the same love for a certain classical piece.

This one..

Wouldn't the music of today be the classical of tomorrow? I wouldn't be surprised if Miranda listens to Lady Gaga. Does anyone have any idea's of what  today's modern music Miranda would listen to? I thinkSSQ .

There is no way to tell. "classical" is something that has passed the test of time. Say, anything that is older than, say, 50 years and still reasonably popular may be regarded as classical. So some of today's music will probably enter the body of the classical, but there's no way to tell which one. Many of the famous classical composers were also regarded as revolutionary in their time, so any kind of mainstream music has a lesser chance of become a classic. 

Considering that Miranda likes Nielsen, from today's corpus I can see her appreciating the newer works of Lisa Gerrard or Björk (which I only have a lukewarm appreciation for but must admit they're interesting). Anything unsubtly intrusive or with a very defined beat (SSQ qualifies) is probably out, as well as most mainstream anything. A few exceptions notwithstanding - preference in music is often eclectic.

@jtav:
Disliking techno-pop is a sign of good taste, not snobbery.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 09 juillet 2010 - 08:47 .

[Nightwriter]

Has anyone ever seen Lady Gaga interviewed?

She is, like... surprisingly worth listening to. And here I had thought she was unintelligent. It's not like she does much to help that impression with her videos.

Though "Love Games" is wicked catchy. And good to dance to...

Modifié par Nightwriter, 09 juillet 2010 - 12:41 .

[TheSixthghoul]

Has anyone considered Lady Gaga's character as the perfect Anti-Miranda? She could be the bases for Miranda's twin sister representing ever misconception and hateful hater claim .

[Ieldra]

I'd rather talk about women I like - even if they have the disadvantage of being fictional. Like this one:

[jtav]

Me too. And I certainly like that one.

[Nightwriter]

Oh, fine. We'll talk about boring non-Lady-Gaga things.

Is anyone else almost disappointed (just a teeny bit) that Miranda can't die properly like the other LIs, so we could hear her romance dialogue for it?

[jtav]

A little bit.Does that make me a sadist?

[Nightwriter]

Well if it does it would hardly be a new development, lol. jtav, a Miranda sadist? Pshaw! 

I just want to know what she says! Or what she would say, anyway.

Thane, Jacob, and Jack all say something (about the romance) if they die. 

Modifié par Nightwriter, 09 juillet 2010 - 01:56 .

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

Not annoying at all, with the right implementation, for instance with enough in-game information about where to find whom at certain times. But as I said, ME2 doesn't simulate world time, and without that it's impossible.

Actually, now that I've thought about it, you're right. With the way the Normandy is modelled, it wouldn't be that bad - I mean, I'd hate if I'd have to wait for somebody to wake up before I can converse with them to unlock their loyalty mission, but it's possible if "realism" is desired. 

And yes on the point that Tali doesn't always have to be there. I mean, expand the romance a bit and you can have Miranda/Shep boinking at the gun bay, the cargo hold, the port/starboard observation decks and the life support room as well. Romance expansion, done! As well as giving jtav a hernia in the process, it seems

[jtav]

Nightwriter wrote...

Well if it does it would hardly be a new development, lol. jtav, a Miranda sadist? Pshaw! 

I just want to know what she says! Or what she would say, anyway.

Thane, Jacob, and Jack all say something (about the romance) if they die. 

I think I would have liked a Star Wars style "I know" line. Have her say I love you, without saying it. How about: "Shepard, it was...worth it." Okay, I know you don't have to choose that option, but indulge my romanticism.

[Nightwriter]

jtav wrote...
I think I would have liked a Star Wars style "I know" line. Have her say I love you, without saying it. How about: "Shepard, it was...worth it." Okay, I know you don't have to choose that option, but indulge my romanticism.

That would be absolutely perfect and you know it.

[Ieldra]

Nightwriter wrote...

Well if it does it would hardly be a new development, lol. jtav, a Miranda sadist? Pshaw! 

I just want to know what she says! Or what she would say, anyway.

Thane, Jacob, and Jack all say something (about the romance) if they die. 

I think it may be tied to the situations where they can die. When do they say something? When they die at the final boss? Or at holding the line? Or when Thane or Jack die from unresearched upgrades? When carried away be the swarm? Because those are the times when it's possible nobody says anything, as opposed to dying as the tech specialist or the second fire team leader.

As for what Miranda should say if she said anything, I agree with jtav. That would be very romantic. I'd even be tempted to play such a game. And go without LI for the whole of ME3 because it takes time to get over her loss... well, maybe not.

[jtav]

I'd play it. Might even make it my "canon" Shep. I'm a sucker for things like that. Why can't we get more of that romanticism in-game. I know, go play the Talimance. But I want it with Miranda, damn it!

[Nightwriter]

I'm not sure when they say it Ieldra. I only know that Thane, Jack and Jacob say anything at all because I heard it from Ecael. And yes, I wish the Mirandamance was more romantic.