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[jtav]

Ieldra2 wrote...


When does she start? Almost immediately after acquiring the SR2, it seems. The first regular conversation on the Normandy is about normal in tone. And this is much too fast. I guess I'm not the only one who thinks she changes her attitude towards Shepard too fast.

Yes, much too fast. It's almost as if the writers are afraid of dealing with the implications that Shepard was dead. They should have had him captured or stranded somewhere for two years and then rescued by Cerberus. If I were writing this and asked to keep the Lazarus Project angle, I would have made it a bigger part of the story and have Shep go through a bit of an existential crisis. I would have also jettisoned Miranda as a romance option and made the relationship quasi-parental instead. Something like Frankenstein and the Creature, only positive. The reborn Shepard is Miranda's legacy, the mark she'll leave on the Galaxy.

And aren't you glad I don't write for Bioware?

[MatsudaTohu]

Well, maybe not with that part.

[jtav]

It's really starting to show that I'm not the target audience for these games, isn't it?

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...


When does she start? Almost immediately after acquiring the SR2, it seems. The first regular conversation on the Normandy is about normal in tone. And this is much too fast. I guess I'm not the only one who thinks she changes her attitude towards Shepard too fast.

Yes, much too fast. It's almost as if the writers are afraid of dealing with the implications that Shepard was dead. They should have had him captured or stranded somewhere for two years and then rescued by Cerberus. If I were writing this and asked to keep the Lazarus Project angle, I would have made it a bigger part of the story and have Shep go through a bit of an existential crisis. I would have also jettisoned Miranda as a romance option and made the relationship quasi-parental instead. Something like Frankenstein and the Creature, only positive. The reborn Shepard is Miranda's legacy, the mark she'll leave on the Galaxy.

And aren't you glad I don't write for Bioware?

Definitely. I wouldn't like having an existential crisis forced on me. My Shepards (most of them, anyway) would consider many possibilities - both pleasant and unpleasant - coming from this great technological achievement, and they'll certainly think a lot about it and ask a lot of questions, but they'd be able to deal with the existential part rather easily.
Also: no Miranda romance, that I wouldn't like at all. Among other things, the romance makes it bearable that I can't play as Miranda.

BTW, if the writers were afraid to deal with the implications of Shepard's death, it's probably because they'd have to let characters talk about it on one side, while leaving things open enough for the player's identification with Shepard.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
It's really starting to show that I'm not the target audience for these games, isn't it?

You're not the target audience for Miranda's romance, that's for sure. As for the rest, why not? You're clearly into story-driven games, and Miranda, apart from the romance, seems to attract a wide range of players.

[Nightwriter]

... Does anyone else feel really uneasy bringing Miranda to Purgatory in that outfit?

Anyway, jtav, I have no idea when Shepard's transition from project to person happened in Miranda's eyes. They do not address this at all. I wish they had.

[jtav]

I agree with why they didn't bring up the implications, but I don't think they should have introduced the device at all if they weren't going to introduce at least the option of dealing with them. I get the impression that I'm not supposed to think about all this, let alone have the religious and philosophical implications of Shep's resurrection be the first thing I thought of. I also suspect the complex, complicated Miranda exists mostly in my head and I'm going to be very disappointed with ME3.

[TimberOwls]

Hi. I’m relatively new to the forums myself, but just wanted to post and show some support for Miranda, who was without a doubt my favourite character in ME 2. I mean, I was all for staying loyal to Ash when I started playing but I fell victim to Miranda’s character and charms like so many before me it seems.



I’ve actually spent most of the day reading through this forum (which just goes to show how little life I have) and I have to agree that Miranda’s attitude towards Shepard seems to change randomly. When you talk to her before the events at Freedom’s Progress, she seems kinda unwilling to spend any time talking to you and is kinda blunt, (although I guess this could be because of the time limit on the mission and wanting to get there before anyone else) but then you speak to her once you’ve gotten on the Normandy and she appears quite happy to discuss things with you and in a civil tone. How odd.

[jtav]

Welcome TimberOwls. You certainly aren't the only one. We all fell hard for this character, and we always welcome new people.

[jtav]

By the way, I keep hearing that the LIs have almost no development if you don't romance them. For Miranda, at least, this is absolutely not true. I would go so far as to say 90% of her character development is independent of her romance and the scene you get if you romance no one in either game runs circles around her romance scene. That's why I can distinguish netween her romance and her character arc.



I trust it's okay I dislike the romance? I can't decide if you guys think it's an eccentricity or just weird.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
By the way, I keep hearing that the LIs have almost no development if you don't romance them. For Miranda, at least, this is absolutely not true. I would go so far as to say 90% of her character development is independent of her romance and the scene you get if you romance no one in either game runs circles around her romance scene. That's why I can distinguish netween her romance and her character arc.

Yes, I like how they made Miranda. You get to see the important personality traits with or without her romance. I wish other characters were like that, so I could romance Miranda and still get to know the others better.

I trust it's okay I dislike the romance? I can't decide if you guys think it's an eccentricity or just weird.

Why should it not be OK? Mostly, it's you who brings this up as if it were a problem. For the last month or so, we've had one pitchfork incident and it was not by a regular. You're safe.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 juillet 2010 - 06:10 .

[Pacifien]

The discussion of how much you truly get to know a squadmate came up on the Jack thread recently as well. Like Miranda, you really do get to hear most of Jack's story with the exception of a previous relationship that rattled Jack and leads to the issue of intimacy and romance. Appropriate conversation to have specifically with a love interest as opposed to not.

Really, the problem with squadmate discussions is that if you're keen to speak with them every chance you get, their dialogue cuts out long before you've finished the game. Just as you were getting to know them, there's nothing more to learn. The only squadmate who I felt didn't end abruptly was Mordin, partially because he seems to have more conversations than anyone else, plus he has multiple ways of telling you to leave him alone.

Mordin's case might be the direction the developers need to take. Along with adding more conversation, they should do something along the lines of Kasumi and Zaeed for every lull in between. Have squadmates have random comments about what's going on in the ship. Not only does it give you something different to listen to besides "there's a lot to do, Shepard," it would also provide a little insight into what the squadmates think of each other or the ship.

Modifié par Pacifien, 11 juillet 2010 - 06:31 .

[TimberOwls]

Why thank you jtav Strangely enough, I was gonna grab a pitchfork for ‘not liking Miranda’s romance’ but figures someone’s already done it for this thread, which saved me the hassle. Nah, I have say I personally think it's not that weird that you don't like the romance. It’s cool that you’re given the chance to appreciate her character and see her develop without being pushed down the romance path.



I agree with Pacifien; some of the character’s really don’t have enough dialogue. Garrus is one in particular that I think suffers from this. Seriously Bioware, how long does it actually take to perform some calibrations? Then again, I guess having Garrus as your team mate in ME1 means that you learn a fair bit about him beforehand….

[Nightwriter]

No need to grab the pitchfork Timber. jtav's just like that. She's a diehard Miranda fan, she just doesn't like the way the romance was done.

I agree with you Pacifien. Mordin's route was the route they should've gone with all characters. I think that in addition to the standard dialogue content we should get event-specific dialogue which unlocks with every turning point in the game. This dialogue is about the recent turning point.

For instance: right after Horizon, if you have Miranda with you in your party (which I always do because I cannot miss her getting haughty with Ashley about Cerberus) Miranda might tentatively ask you about your former team and how you got them to be so loyal, something she's never experienced on Cerberus teams.

[jtav]

A diehard fan who occasionally wants to punch her and has some problems with social anxiety. Event sensitive dialogue would be a fantasyic idea. Maybe we'd get a little build up toward her resignation.

[Pacifien]

It would be nice to have the squadmates ask Shepard about his life. I know the writers keep such dialogue to a minimum because everyone is going to play and view their Shepard differently. But think of the first conversation you have with Ashley or Kaidan in ME1 where they ask Shepard specifically about, say, being a war hero. Actually, they do that in ME2 when Jacob asks you what your feelings were for some particular event. Simply give your Shepard multiple choices of how to answer.

Actually, then even have Samara reflect on Shepard's nature if he's mostly renegade. So they developers can certainly have characters adjust their attitude to Shepard depending on how you've been playing him, and they could adjust their comments accordingly.

It's a crime how limited the conversation is with Garrus, but I think Garrus does get the most mission comments of any other squadmate. I like his "there's no pep talk like a military pep talk" during Mordin's loyalty mission.

Was totally going to turn this to Miranda.... oh right, did I ever ask this thread about what idle comments or actions Miranda could take if you stood around her office long enough? Like if you hover behind Joker, he starts making random comments from how the ship is running to porn. If you stand around long enough by Garrus in ME1, you'd see him actually lean down and work on the Mako.

I can imagine Miranda saying she really hates it when someone is hovering over her shoulder when she's trying to write her reports.

[Crunchyinmilk]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I guess I'm not the only one who thinks she changes her attitude towards Shepard too fast. 

Shepard wakes up early and the attack puts an end to all the testing she had planned.  Instead she's faced with a walking, talking, shooting Shepard and worse, her boss goes around her well laid plans and throws them straight into the field.  This easily explains her attitude prior to freedom's progress, but also her rapid shift in attitude not long after.  She's having to catch up, fast.

In the scene where Shepard takes control of the SR2 she still seems reluctant (maybe a little resigned) to give Shepard free reign and if you press her about her duties on the ship and Cerberus, she still has that competitive air.

There's a lot of effort spent to make you see parallels between Miranda's life with her father and her own work on the Lazarus project.  Should string out treating Shepard like her project, constantly testing him just like she was?  She 'kidnapped' her own sister to prevent the same thing happening to her...

Even if she still had lingering resentment and fears early on, she's not stupid enough to retain the snarky attitude she had prior to freedom's progress.   Shepard has command of the SR2 and TIM has already proven how ready he is to put Shepard to work.   She's bright enough to instead try and put Shepard at ease.

Its not until what, the 4th or 5th conversation that she has the little sit down by her bed and decides to tell Shepard she really does trust them now?  It just reinforced for me the impression that the early olive branches and polite dialog had a 'therapist' taste to them.

[Crunchyinmilk]

Nightwriter wrote...
For instance: right after Horizon, if you have Miranda with you in your party (which I always do because I cannot miss her getting haughty with Ashley about Cerberus)...

I got to play as a male Shepard with Kasumi on the Horizon mission recently and I was shocked (and happy) to hear Kasumi stick up for and actually praise Shepard (with a cute nick name no less) when Kaiden gets all pissy.  It was such a surprise to have a team mate stick up for Shepard and to show friendly concern.

I think of all the little things in ME1 that didn't make it to ME2, my biggest regret is the worried team mate shout outs.  I particularly enjoyed having Tali on a mission just to hear her cry out when Shepard's health got too low.  The ME2 team mates don't seem to have these lines.

[TimberOwls]

Ha, that's a shame...it's been a while since I brought the pitchfork out  But yeah, there's some parts of the romance that I raised an eyebrow at. Shepard's 'I can't admire your body' line actually made me cringe...

I totally agree about the event dialogue and it'd be nice to have a conversation about Shepard's past as well, although I can't remember if Miranda mentions anything about the 'Sole Survivor' background...may be imagining it (It's been a while since I've played it admittedly...)
But I think one of the things Dragon Age had going for it was the amount of interaction with the other characters, so I can't see why they didn't decide to add something similar for ME2.

"Shepard, don't you have work to do?" Is the first idle comment that popped into my head. I can hear her saying that....

[Nightwriter]

I don't know, Pacifien. I've never heard Miranda say anything if you hang around her office. In fact I've only seen that with Joker.

Crunchy, my squaddies always stick up for me a bit during Horizon. Which scene are you talking about? The one where you say "I'm sorry, I did all I could" to the mechanic, and your teammate says "No one could've done more, Shepard"? (at least, that's what Miranda says)

[Nightwriter]

Also, Miranda comments on your personal background but not your career history. For instance she mentions my colonist upbringing and the attack on Mindoir but not the Skyllian Blitz.

[Pacifien]

Nightwriter wrote...
I don't know, Pacifien. I've never heard Miranda say anything if you hang around her office. In fact I've only seen that with Joker.

It does only happen with Joker, but I thought it would add a little bit of a dynamic atmosphere if other characters did this, too. Miranda telling Shepard he should probably get back to work. Miranda taking a sip of her tea. Maybe even getting up and rummaging through the shelves like she's looking for something in particular. Just little things that make it seem like she's doing more than writing the longest mission report to the Illusive Man ever.

But on a bit of a turn, I know Miranda's sudden turn against the Illusive Man with concern to the Collector Base has fans divided as to how it fits her character. For one, I'm rather glad that they didn't go the same route as ME1 where the squadmate's opinion changed depending on who your other squadmate was at the time. No Garrus advocating leaving the Council when Liara advocates saving it only to have him advocate saving it when Wrex says you should leave them. So good on the writers to have Miranda's opinion be consistent even if you don't romance her. A decision like that has to be deep-rooted enough that she's not going to change her mind just 'cause Shepard made her more paragon/renegade.

Miranda only speaks up if you consider keeping the base and the other squadmate agrees with you, though. It's a squadmate's last final attempt to make you change your mind if they disagree with you.

Now, Miranda does prefer to get the job done and leans toward the ruthless and pragmatic methods of doing so. So why wouldn't she advocate keeping the base? I think it's simply because her love of humanity actually does trump her loyalty to Cerberus. She fully supports anything Cerberus does that she feels is a boon to humanity, but will draw the line when she feels it betrays humanity. The Collector Base killed hundreds of thousands of humans. She'd destroy the base as a last honor to all the humans that lost their lives there.

But okay, she doesn't scold Shepard if he does keep the base. She has reservations. I can see her hoping that keeping the base leads to some good such that she doesn't feel like she betrayed those who lost their lives there.

[jtav]

Ha, that's a shame...it's been a while since I brought the pitchfork out /images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png But yeah, there's some parts of the romance that I raised an eyebrow at. Shepard's 'I can't admire your body' line actually made me cringe...

Stuff that makes me cringe:

--"I wouldn't mind if you admired my body."  
--"Oh, I'm definitely interested." Apparently Miranda has a weakness for extremely bad pickup lines, both using and falling for them. This is why I don't hold Jacob's dialogue against him. She's almost as bad. Also, Shep comes across like a complete horndog.
--The unintentionally funny dry humping. Either do it right or not at all, Bioware. I'm too old to be titilated by a bra shot.
--"I've cleared the engine room." No, Miranda, you didn't. The Collectors did. Which makes the location creepy, not romantic.
--That stupid, stupid romance conflict line line that shall not be named and finally made me snap.

Oddly enough, this means I don't like any MaleShep options except for Liara.

[kraidy1117]

jtav wrote...

Ha, that's a shame...it's been a while since I brought the pitchfork out /images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png But yeah, there's some parts of the romance that I raised an eyebrow at. Shepard's 'I can't admire your body' line actually made me cringe...

Stuff that makes me cringe:

--"I wouldn't mind if you admired my body."  
--"Oh, I'm definitely interested." Apparently Miranda has a weakness for extremely bad pickup lines, both using and falling for them. This is why I don't hold Jacob's dialogue against him. She's almost as bad. Also, Shep comes across like a complete horndog.
--The unintentionally funny dry humping. Either do it right or not at all, Bioware. I'm too old to be titilated by a bra shot.
--"I've cleared the engine room." No, Miranda, you didn't. The Collectors did. Which makes the location creepy, not romantic.
--That stupid, stupid romance conflict line line that shall not be named and finally made me snap.

Oddly enough, this means I don't like any MaleShep options except for Liara.

I can write a better romance scene for crying out loud, I hate the engine room <_<