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[Christmas Ape]

Lemonwizard wrote...

Privateerkev wrote...

Really? Things that develop gradually over time have to automatically be a retcon?

I'd hardly call "isn't even alluded to in the vaguest sense or noticable no matter how hard you look at it in ME1, but then continually present in the vast majority of her dialogue even if you're not romancing her in ME2" gradual.

Well, sure. It's not like you died, came back, then swept in out of a clear blue sky guns blazing to rescue her from geth. You've never stood for her when no quarian would, salvaged her status among her people, and saved her father's good name. It's not as if anything dramatic happens that might push feelings to the forefront of one's mind. You've just been kind of cruising along with her for two uninterrupted years when this sudden shift happens. Completely unanticipated.

Modifié par Christmas Ape, 13 juin 2010 - 04:04 .

[Pacifien]

I don't like how fidgety Tali became in ME2.

[Illuminaut]

Pacifien wrote...

"So then she says 'Oh, you're with Cerberus now. I don't trust them. They can be manipulating you.'"
"I'm telling you, this is why you shouldn't date Alliance."
"So then I had to explain that I wasn't working for them, we were just looking into the colony attacks together. Completely wouldn't believe me."
"Not to mention you were dead! How can she be so insensitive? You deserve someone who trusts you. Someone who is going to treat you right."
"Oh, I think I'm just going to stop dating for awhile."
"No, don't do that! Don't let some Alliance stooge spoil you!"
"It's always the same thing. Oh, he's a Spectre. He's infallible! I wonder what he looks like under all that N7 armor!"
"You'll find someone out there who cares about you for who you are. Someone who will even go on a suicide mission with you, even."

Here, I believe you are owed one Internets for that post of utter awesomesauce.

[STG]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Lemonwizard wrote...

Privateerkev wrote...

Really? Things that develop gradually over time have to automatically be a retcon?

I'd hardly call "isn't even alluded to in the vaguest sense or noticable no matter how hard you look at it in ME1, but then continually present in the vast majority of her dialogue even if you're not romancing her in ME2" gradual.

Well, sure. It's not like you died, came back, then swept in out of a clear blue sky guns blazing to rescue her from geth. You've never stood for her when no quarian would, salvaged her status among her people, and saved her father's good name. It's not as if anything dramatic happens that might push feelings to the forefront of one's mind. You've just been kind of cruising along with her for two uninterrupted years when this sudden shift happens. Completely unanticipated.

Thats just it. I treated Tali like dirt in ME, did pretty much the same in ME2 and ended up sleeping with her. She should have no reason for liking me.

[Christmas Ape]

STG wrote...
Thats just it. I treated Tali like dirt in ME, did pretty much the same in ME2 and ended up sleeping with her. She should have no reason for liking me.

Well, that's just scripting issues. I believe the 'assumed' Shepard is less of a monumental tool.
That's not aimed at you, but the Shepard you've apparently played. The girl's trying to help you. And even if you do come off as a tool, you are still the dashing commander who twice saves her life and takes her on a vital mission across the galaxy. Like nobody's ever known a girl who fell for a guy everybody else rightly points out is an intolerable douche nozzle without respect for her.

[FourSixEight]

I don't think it's really a retcon that Tali developed feelings for Shepard. Consider this: in the first game, you saved her life, which is enough to kick off a Rescue-Romance-kind-of-thing in most cases.



Not only that, you took her along on a fantastical voyage fighting geth- which she hates- AND a rogue Spectre.



That's the kind of adventure quarian youths can only dream of, and not only that, you treated her like a real person, not like some 'gypsy thief' or 'clanless' or whatever the volus call them. You were genuinely interested in what she had to say, most of the time, and not only that, but you helped her get her pilgrimage data, potentially.



Honestly, I would have been more surprised if Tali didn't develop some kind of crush on Shepard, after all the things he's done for her.

[Xandurpein]

I also think that Tali developed a crush over the course of ME1. It's pretty heavily hinted in ME2 that this is so. It's also pretty clear that Tali thinks her crush is doomed anyway, because of her suit and everything so she never acts on it. She just manages to blurt it out by mistake, while a bit feverish, and is totally unprepared when Shepard feels the same.

What makes Tali's romance work so well, in my opinion, is that it's presented as this "shy girl next door" who has had a crush on you for years, and I have litterally known her for years. I got to know her when ME1 was released and liked her, but didn't figure she was an object for romance until suddenly I learned differently. So my own feelings towards her matches Shepards in that way.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 13 juin 2010 - 02:42 .

[NICKjnp]

Casey Hudson said on a Giant Bomb podcast a few days before the game was released that the reason Tali and Garrus became romancable was because they developed such a huge fan base. It was not intended in the first game. Infact they thought people wouldn't like her because they thought she looked like a chicken (which is where the chicken joke on the forums comes from). So it was not intended from ME1... contrary to what you want to believe.

That said... go discuss this in the Tali thread where it belongs!

Modifié par NICKjnp, 13 juin 2010 - 04:47 .

[Homebound]

kennyv217 wrote...

 Is it true that Tali has loved the Commander since the moment they met. I don't remember her saying that and i've beaten the game a lot of times lol. 

She fell in love with him during the end of Mass Effect 1.  She explains it rather romantically, like as if Shepard was a knight in shining armor going around saving damsels in distress or something.

[Homebound]

Xandurpein wrote...

I also think that Tali developed a crush over the course of ME1. It's pretty heavily hinted in ME2 that this is so. It's also pretty clear that Tali thinks her crush is doomed anyway, because of her suit and everything so she never acts on it. She just manages to blurt it out by mistake, while a bit feverish, and is totally unprepared when Shepard feels the same.

What makes Tali's romance work so well, in my opinion, is that it's presented as this "shy girl next door" who has had a crush on you for years, and I have litterally known her for years. I got to know her when ME1 was released and liked her, but didn't figure she was an object for romance until suddenly I learned differently. So my own feelings towards her matches Shepards in that way.

I noticed when I tried to romance her with my FemShep, she realized that what she was saying had a double-meaning and that FemShep was a lesbian.  At that point I got the distinct impression that my FemShep was like the Lesbian Friend in Tali's circle of friends. But a friend nonetheless. At least thats how I interpreted it. I got all that from 1-3 seconds of dialogue reply and body language.

[2pac Shakur]

Xandurpein wrote...


What makes Tali's romance work so well, in my opinion, is that it's presented as this "shy girl next door" who has had a crush on you for years, and I have litterally known her for years. I got to know her when ME1 was released and liked her, but didn't figure she was an object for romance until suddenly I learned differently. So my own feelings towards her matches Shepards in that way.

and that is enough to make any nerd, no matter how fat or hopless, ****** for the internet chick. That is why there are hordes of Taliamancers in comparison to lets say oh.... jacob fans?

[Niceral]

Because she's not a strong female figure, having to give in to a stupid crush.

[Lemonwizard]

2pac Shakur wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...


What makes Tali's romance work so well, in my opinion, is that it's presented as this "shy girl next door" who has had a crush on you for years, and I have litterally known her for years. I got to know her when ME1 was released and liked her, but didn't figure she was an object for romance until suddenly I learned differently. So my own feelings towards her matches Shepards in that way.

and that is enough to make any nerd, no matter how fat or hopless, ****** for the internet chick. That is why there are hordes of Taliamancers in comparison to lets say oh.... jacob fans?

Let's be fair, here. Tali's romance actually IS more well written than Jacob's. By a large margin.

[Friend Zone Turian]

Privateerkev wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

"So then she says 'Oh, you're with Cerberus now. I don't trust them. They can be manipulating you.'"
"I'm telling you, this is why you shouldn't date Alliance."
"So then I had to explain that I wasn't working for them, we were just looking into the colony attacks together. Completely wouldn't believe me."
"Not to mention you were dead! How can she be so insensitive? You deserve someone who trusts you. Someone who is going to treat you right."
"Oh, I think I'm just going to stop dating for awhile."
"No, don't do that! Don't let some Alliance stooge spoil you!"
"It's always the same thing. Oh, he's a Spectre. He's infallible! I wonder what he looks like under all that N7 armor!"
"You'll find someone out there who cares about you for who you are. Someone who will even go on a suicide mission with you, even."

*swoon*

wanna watch some "Fleet and Flotilla"?

I hear it won awards for it's portrayal of Turian-Quarian relationships.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

I don't like how the bioware devs are assuming which characters people would like or dislike.

If you thought people weren't going to like garrus or tali then why the hell did you even make them squadmates....or even characters. And on top of that they written interesting back stories for both of them. They should treat each character equally, its up to the fans to decide which character which characters they like or dislike.  Not the developers.

Modifié par Mr.BlazenGlazen, 14 juin 2010 - 05:44 .

[The Governator]

Lemonwizard wrote...

It's a blatant retcon that is never actually alluded to in ME1 and then handwaved in ME2.

It might have been.  I think it has been said, on many occasions, that Tali was originally intended to be a romantic interest but the 'chicken feet' were what made the developers abandon the idea.  She always responded very well in ME if you treated her well.  When she admits she loved Shepard in ME2 it seems very plausible, at worst, and beautiful storytelling at best.  I found it to be just about the best and most credible development of a romance in later chapters where barely a hint of it existed before. 

[NICKjnp]

The Governator wrote...

Lemonwizard wrote...

It's a blatant retcon that is never actually alluded to in ME1 and then handwaved in ME2.

It might have been.  I think it has been said, on many occasions, that Tali was originally intended to be a romantic interest but the 'chicken feet' were what made the developers abandon the idea.  She always responded very well in ME if you treated her well.  When she admits she loved Shepard in ME2 it seems very plausible, at worst, and beautiful storytelling at best.  I found it to be just about the best and most credible development of a romance in later chapters where barely a hint of it existed before. 

Tali was never intended to be an LI.  The reason she became one is because she had such a strong fanbase.  Honestly... they had to age her like seven years to make the romance seem less creepy because in the first game she was still like 17 or something.  The LI's from the first game were the characters they were intending to use from the start.  There was originaly supposed to be Gay/Lesbian options with Ashley and Kaidan but they abandoned the idea.

As for the ME2 story... still creepy.  She is still a kid and Shepard is still her mentor... creepy.

Enough of this though... discuss this in the Tali thread.  Please... stuff like this clogs up the front page.

[Privateerkev]

NICKjnp wrote...

The Governator wrote...

Lemonwizard wrote...

It's a blatant retcon that is never actually alluded to in ME1 and then handwaved in ME2.

It might have been.  I think it has been said, on many occasions, that Tali was originally intended to be a romantic interest but the 'chicken feet' were what made the developers abandon the idea.  She always responded very well in ME if you treated her well.  When she admits she loved Shepard in ME2 it seems very plausible, at worst, and beautiful storytelling at best.  I found it to be just about the best and most credible development of a romance in later chapters where barely a hint of it existed before. 

Tali was never intended to be an LI.  The reason she became one is because she had such a strong fanbase.  Honestly... they had to age her like seven years to make the romance seem less creepy because in the first game she was still like 17 or something.  The LI's from the first game were the characters they were intending to use from the start.  There was originaly supposed to be Gay/Lesbian options with Ashley and Kaidan but they abandoned the idea.

As for the ME2 story... still creepy.  She is still a kid and Shepard is still her mentor... creepy.

Enough of this though... discuss this in the Tali thread.  Please... stuff like this clogs up the front page.

If that is true, then even though they are responding to fans, they are still doing it by tapping into very believable character development and emotions. So, so what? Who cares if they meant for her to be an LI in ME2 when they wrote ME1 or not? All that matters is if the ME2 romance plot feels forced. And it doesn't. Because emotions are allowed to develop over time. All of the other romances, besides Garrus, are along the lines of, "Hi! You are interesting and unique. Wanna screw?"

Modifié par Privateerkev, 14 juin 2010 - 03:37 .

[InHarmsWay]

NICKjnp wrote...

The Governator wrote...

Lemonwizard wrote...

It's a blatant retcon that is never actually alluded to in ME1 and then handwaved in ME2.

It might have been.  I think it has been said, on many occasions, that Tali was originally intended to be a romantic interest but the 'chicken feet' were what made the developers abandon the idea.  She always responded very well in ME if you treated her well.  When she admits she loved Shepard in ME2 it seems very plausible, at worst, and beautiful storytelling at best.  I found it to be just about the best and most credible development of a romance in later chapters where barely a hint of it existed before. 

Tali was never intended to be an LI.  The reason she became one is because she had such a strong fanbase.  Honestly... they had to age her like seven years to make the romance seem less creepy because in the first game she was still like 17 or something.  The LI's from the first game were the characters they were intending to use from the start.  There was originaly supposed to be Gay/Lesbian options with Ashley and Kaidan but they abandoned the idea.

As for the ME2 story... still creepy.  She is still a kid and Shepard is still her mentor... creepy.

Enough of this though... discuss this in the Tali thread.  Please... stuff like this clogs up the front page.

She was twenty-two. Just seven years younger than Shepard. How is that creepy? And don't give me the "she's on pilgrimage to become an adult rite". Would it make sense to send a teenager out of their own in a galaxy. They would have to be adults, just not in tradition.

[InvaderErl]

Princess Leia being in love with Han Solo was a retcon. Retcons can be a good thing.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 14 juin 2010 - 04:17 .

[Stanley Woo]

I believe this thread is more appropriate for the Tali thread.



End of line.