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[Vim]

Selej wrote...

I'm always surprised there's someone who brings up Anora betraying them when recuing her.

I'm not.

She points out clearly no one must know as Howe's forces would kill her and her father's would imprison her if she were seen with the warden. If you're stupid enough to know that then openly oust her in front of her father's number two, you deserve to get 'stabbed in the back'. She even confronts you telling you why she did it even though you were supposed to guide her out of there without revealing her idenity.

There's two ways of looking at this situation...

1) You buy into the narrative that Anora wants everyone to believe.  She is the ruling Queen and you are obligated to serve her, even if that includes laying down your life for her (surrendering to the forces of someone trying to kill you) or slaughtering others unnecessarily (Ser Cauthrien & her men) because Anora is more important than everyone else.

2) You see Anora as the widow of the previous ruling king who has begged you to rescue her from her madman of a father. She might have administered the realm in her now dead husband's name, but the Landsmeet never proclaimed her the nation's ruler and you are under no obligation to obey her. Furthermore, as the walking engine of destruction she has begged to rescue her, she should trust your judgment and defer to you during the rescue.  You have no intention of handing her over, but neither are you stupid enough to surrender, nor do you wish to slaughter skilled veterans whose blades are needed to fight the oncoming horde of Darkspawn,  good people whose only fault is placing their loyalty in a man who no longer deserves it.  To convince them to stand down it is necessary to explain to Ser Cauthrien why you invaded Howe's estate, killed him, and left a trail of other bodies in your wake.  But Anora is so selfishly caught up in her desire to maximize her political advantage by both escaping and keeping her father from prematurely finding out that she begged the Warden to rescue her  (she knows very well that  neither Ser Cauthrien nor her father would harm a hair on her head despite the BS she's told you.) that she doesn't see the wisdom in dialogue to avoid needless deaths. When she lies, claiming you kidnapped her, she forces you to slaughter those very same skilled & capable veterans who are needed against the Darkspawn.  As far as my characters are concerned, the blood of Ser Cauthrien and her men are on Anora's hands.  Were it not for Anora's betrayal they would probably not have died.

That being said, I fought and recued her without giving her away and we seem to be living happily ever after in Awakening...well before the mysterious vanishing of my warden.

You can reveal your reason for invading Howe's estate to Ser Cauthrien and still live happily ever after with Anora in Awakening. She'll even apologize to you for her actions. While you might not see it, to Anora it's all just power politics.

Modifié par Vim, 20 juin 2010 - 08:41 .

[Vim]

crono_clone wrote...

Alistair's honesty and integrity is why my male elf warden wishes he could romance him It was one of the qualities my warden learned to value after having failed his friend Jowan.

Anora may be brilliant, but after stabbing my warden in the back while he was attempting to help her, she will remain locked in that tower forever until in crumbles to the ground in the next Blight.

Having picked through Awakening's talktable file for the missing love letters, I decided to pick through Origins' talktable files too to see if I could pick up any interesting "lost" tidbits of text. And interestingly enough I found one pertaining to Anora that reads:

"Q u e e n   A n o r a   w a s   s e n t   a w a y   t o   l i v e   o u t   t h e   r e s t   o f   h e r   d a y s   i n   a   c l o i s t e r . "

I was wondering if anyone has seen this line at all in the game? I haven't.   It's found in the file core_en-us.tlk.

[Vim]

Julian_Kraynog wrote...

After my 7 or 8 playthroughs, I have only ONCE married my Human Noble to her and I regretted it. I like Alistair to be by my side and I always end up getting him to marry Anora. Anora is very political. She just wants her Queen-ship back and will do anything for it. Marrying my Human Noble would only be a means to achieve and she will not indulge in any mutual relationship, whatsoever.

Funny, that's precisely the reason why I felt bad marrying an unhardened Alistair to Anora. She'd eat him alive. My human noble usually ends up "taking one for the team" and marrying Anora himself.  That said, I don't think it impossible to arrive at some sort of mutual relationship with Anora, just a difficult minefield to traverse.  She's attracted to heroic, commanding alpha males  based on her father as the standard. But she also is paranoid that like most alpha males, you'll try to push her aside and take power for yourself.  It's a delicate balancing act, defering to her just enough that she doesn't feel threatened, but not so much that she loses her respect and attraction to you. 

Another strong reason for me not to marry her, is her highly disturbing speech before the final battle. I felt that it didn't fit in at all.

Anora is a better administrator than leader. She's not very good at dealing with people and admits it herself in a round-about way when discussing her deceased husband.

As far as Alistair goes, I can't really say why Women love him so much, because I'm not one. But I can find a few good qualities in him to have him at my side. Ever since my first playthrough, I have thought of him of being a TRUE friend. Remember that, he's the only guy who joins you for the actual cause and not for any of his benefits. He felt it a responsibility to help you defeat the blight. The others just CHOSE to come along and many of them had their own reasons.

This is why I never end up sparing Loghain. Even if my characters are willing to -consider- sparing Loghain, I just can't pick Loghain over Alistair at that point in the game.  Alistair is my friend and best-buddy and I just can't do that to him, not over a guy who has caused all the death & destruction that Loghain has.

The Ultimate Sacrifice is my most favorite of finishing the game. It was pretty obvious that Alistair would be a piece of meat thrown to the nobles, if he were to rule alone. Anora would definitely have him killed or atleast exiled if she became the single ruler. So I thought it was the best option of having them both rule the country.
Funny, on my first playthrough, I was actually searching for something with which I can show Alistair that not everyone is as naive as him and that they wouldn't care for their family, as he would. And as I hoped, I got to harden him and he made an excellent king at the end.

Amusingly enough, my male noble is selfless enough to marry Anora, but not selfless enough to go the US route.  I suppose as far as he's concerned he has the hope that the marriage just might work out, and if not, he can always keep Leliana as his mistress on the side.  He also isn't caloused enough, unlike say my elves and dwarven commoner,  to choose the one line in the game that hardens Alistair. So my noble ends up biting that bullet himself in an attempt to balance Anora out, and keep an eye on her so she doesn't turn into her father...

Modifié par Vim, 21 juin 2010 - 11:57 .

[Maria13]

Some nice contributions from Vim and Julian, here.

[Vim]

Julian_Kraynog wrote...

Vim wrote...
Funny, that's precisely the reason why I felt bad marrying an unhardened Alistair to Anora. She'd eat him alive. My human noble usually ends up "taking one for the team" and marrying Anora himself.  That said, I don't think it impossible to arrive at some sort of mutual relationship with Anora, just a difficult minefield to traverse.  She's attracted to heroic, commanding alpha males  based on her father as the standard. But she also is paranoid that like most alpha males, you'll try to push her aside and take power for yourself.  It's a delicate balancing act, defering to her just enough that she doesn't feel threatened, but not so much that she loses her respect and attraction to you.

 
Well, I don't know about her interests and all. I wouldn't say she's a complete political and a power hungry robot. But after playing Awakening, she gave me more of the reason that she was just looking for the highest power. My character was just her adviser in the court, then he left to Amaranthine for the new adventure but there was no mention of any mutual relation-ship that my character might've had with her during the years(like, for example, children?).

Anora doesn't really know how to love in a romantic sense. She was married to a man whom she had no attraction to and has never allowed herself to let go with anyone else for fear of the cost to her own power. She is very much an ice queen and only 6 months passes between Origins and Awakening, not years. Given that your marriage was scheduled 6 months after her coronation in Origins' epilogue, that means you're basically newlyweds and Anora hasn't yet had the opportunity to warm up to you. Knowing her, she'd have likely kept you at arm's length while securing her own power during the 6 months in-between. And it's only now, 6 months later, after the wedding that she's giving you a shot at something more. So her standoffishness is perfectly understandable, even if it isn't particularly appealing or enticing.

This is why I never end up sparing Loghain. Even if my characters are willing to -consider- sparing Loghain, I just can't pick Loghain over Alistair at that point in the game.  Alistair is my friend and best-buddy and I just can't do that to him, not over a guy who has caused all the death & destruction that Loghain has.

I have great respect for Loghain actually. Loghain is a tactical man, things just didn't turn out his way, that's all. I really didn't want to kill him, right during the Landsmeet, but If I didn't, I'd lose Alistair. Killing him in front of all the nobles and his daughter is not exactly my type of justice. I'd rather have him fight the horde, alone with no support and die there, just like what happened to Duncan and Cailan. I understood his strategy of saving his men for a better day, the first time I saw him bail out. It was cold but necessary. I would do the same if I were in his shoes.   Cailan was a fool to behave as he did, during the war, he deserved the death, Duncan did not. Hence, the punishment for Loghain.

I have great respect for Loghain's past accomplishments. But that's about it. It was he who thought up the battle plan used at Ostagar which was reliant upon most of the troops staying with him so that they could play the role of the hammer leaving a smaller force to play the role of anvil against which the Darkspawn horde would be crushed. It was he who continually said that there was no blight and that Orlesian forces wouldn't be necessary to assist in the defeat of the Darkspawn. And I'm certain he knew that given his own downplaying of the Darkspawn invasion's severity, Cailan would insist on being part of the heroic group that played the anvil in Loghain's plan. He manipulated his king into risking his life, and then betrayed him and the Grey Wardens by ordering his forces to leave the King to die before the battle had turned against the King. Watch the video again and you'll see. It wasn't until after Loghain's forces started marching away that the battle turned against the King's forces and the Grey Wardens.

And given that Loghain needed a beacon to know if the King's forces were engaged, he clearly couldn't see the battle or the size of the Darkspawn horde facing the King. He thus must have decided well beforehand that beacon or no beacon, he was going to leave the King & Duncan to die. Like his daughter, Loghain is adept at presenting his own narrative that makes his very questionable actions look wise.

He sent a blood mage to poison Arl Eamon even before the Battle of Ostagar, preventing Eamon from bringing his forces to assist in that battle.

And then while Darkspawn were murdering their way across Ferelden, was he trying to stop them? No, he was too busy fighting the Banns who opposed his power grab, killing the Ferelden fighting men needed to defend against the Darkspawn, and taking an occasional time-out only to arrange the assassination of the heroes who were attempting to save Ferelden from the blight.

He sold the kingdom's elves into slavery, many to be used as "human sacrifices" by Tevinter blood mages to power their blood magics.

Were it not for Loghain's actions, Howe would never have dared attack Highever and kill the human noble's mother, father & nephew. Loghain might not have approved Howe's attack in advance, but advance knowledge of Loghain's plans and Cailan's impending death are what caused Howe to suddenly see a golden opportunity to backstab Bryce Cousland and get away with it. And then to add insult to injury Loghain allowed Howe to declare himself Teryn of Highever despite being aware of Howe's treachery.

So no, my human noble didn't feel any sympathy for Loghain. They say the road to hell is paved with the best of intentions. Well Loghain made his bed, and now it's time for him to lie in it as far as my characters are concerned.

Amusingly enough, my male noble is selfless enough to marry Anora, but not selfless enough to go the US route.  I suppose as far as he's concerned he has the hope that the marriage just might work out, and if not, he can always keep Leliana as his mistress on the side.  He also isn't caloused enough, unlike say my elves and dwarven commoner,  to choose the one line in the game that hardens Alistair. So my noble ends up biting that bullet himself in an attempt to balance Anora out, and keep an eye on her so she doesn't turn into her father...

Well, The Ultimate Sacrifice was a personal preference of mine. Not that I'm a suicidal maniac or anything(not atleast in real life), but that's when my fanfiction started tingling(I already explained my fictious story of my survival after the final battle, in one or two threads). Also, I always had this feeling while playing the game, that I didn't have a definite place in the game world anymore, after my Human Noble origin story. I played the rest of the origins only once or twice, but the Human Noble one has always been my favorite. Even if I survived the final battle, what would I do? There's really nowhere to return to, anymore. So, I decided death would be more satisfying, and it was.

I totally respect that, even if I don't entirely understand it.

I agree with you on your thoughts about Anora. She's definetly a woman you'd want to keep an eye on, or atleast , not leave her alone with all that power. Just when I was about to take things into my hand, hardened Alistair saved the day.

I always pick a hardened Alistair over Anora simply because my characters always trust him more. So I'm totally with you on that one. It's a pity that there's only one line in the entire game that will harden him, and my human noble always balks at saying something so calloused to Alistair in his moment of vulnerability.

Modifié par Vim, 22 juin 2010 - 05:06 .

[ArcanistLibram]

Anora is the kind of character that I really, really like. She has clear goals, she knows what she needs to do in order to accomplish them and she knows what resources to use and what to say to get the best possible outcome for her. In a way, she reminds me a lot of Garak or Littlefinger from A Song of Ice and Fire or even the goddamn Batman. It's easy for me to cheer for a character like Anora because I know that she actively works to earn her victories.



Yeah, Alistair's a nice guy, but what does he do to earn the throne? Not a damn thing. Arl Eamon provides the information and most of the plan and the Warden does all of the actual work. It's really difficult for me to support a character who's just getting led by the plot.



Garak dragging an entire empire into a war is morally abject on several levels, but the way he does is so balls out awesome that I have to love him for it. On the other hand, the way Harry Potter wins without ever actually doing anything to accomplish his goals and the way Romeo and Juliet go about their whining just pisses me off.

[Vim]

ArcanistLibram wrote...

Anora is the kind of character that I really, really like. She has clear goals, she knows what she needs to do in order to accomplish them and she knows what resources to use and what to say to get the best possible outcome for her. In a way, she reminds me a lot of Garak or Littlefinger from A Song of Ice and Fire or even the goddamn Batman. It's easy for me to cheer for a character like Anora because I know that she actively works to earn her victories.

I'm with you up to a point.   This logic can also be used to justify some of the bloodiest tyrants in human history, tyrants whom I'd never wish to live under.

Yeah, Alistair's a nice guy, but what does he do to earn the throne? Not a damn thing. Arl Eamon provides the information and most of the plan and the Warden does all of the actual work. It's really difficult for me to support a character who's just getting led by the plot.

In Alistair's defense I will say that he has personally risked his life fighting the Darkspawn again and again.  That's more than nothing.  He's shown courage and valor.  All Anora has done is scheme, and not very successfully at that  since Howe managed to displace her as her father's confidant.   It's not until she latches onto the warden that her scheming brings her any success.  By manipulating the Warden into killing Howe she eliminates her greatest rival for her father's ear and the sole potential threat to her life.  Beyond that it's entirely up to the Warden whether any further scheming by her brings her any success.

In game I see both Alistair & Anora as highly flawed choices.  I think Bioware has done an excellent job of balancing their flaws so that depending on our personal views regarding whose flaws are worse,  we can come to very different decisions. Clearly you view Alistair's flaws as being worse while my feelings are much more mixed.

Garak dragging an entire empire into a war is morally abject on several levels, but the way he does is so balls out awesome that I have to love him for it. On the other hand, the way Harry Potter wins without ever actually doing anything to accomplish his goals and the way Romeo and Juliet go about their whining just pisses me off.

I understand where you're coming from.  I much prefer pro-active heroes, and even villains, who take charge of their own destinies.  My favorite characters in fact are often villains. I have little respect or patience for namby-pamby heroes that float from event to event without having to make any tough decisions. 

Modifié par Vim, 22 juin 2010 - 09:51 .

[Vim]

Julian_Kraynog wrote...

[quote]
@ Vim
Firstly, sorry I will not be quoting all that due to laziness. I answered to all of your points in the same manner so you won't get confused. [/quote]

Unfortunately I kind of get the feeling that you didn't entirely read all of my points regarding Loghain before responding since some of the things you bring up I've already mentioned and addressed. 

[quote]Whether there is or isn't a loving woman inside Anora, we'll never know until the devs give her a chance. Personally, I highly doubt it. I didn't know it was only a 6 month time gap between Origins and Awakening so I understand her shyness and give her the benefit of doubt, for now. [/quote]

I totally understand and respect that viewpoint. 

[quote]About Loghain, I understand your points, but I doubt he was trying get the King killed.[/quote]

I disagree, and think it highly probable. Nevertheless I grant there is no uncontestable evidence of his prior planning, the conclusions of my characters are entirely based on their experiences within the game, which to them at least, are compelling.

[quote]He thought of the battle plan, yes, but nothing went accordingly.[/quote]

The fault there is his. He didn't tell the King that there were too many Darkspawn or that they needed to withdraw.  He made a half-hearted attempt to talk the King out of standing with the Grey Wardens, but beyond that he neglected to warn his King that the battle was a foolhardy one. 

[quote]The Tower of Ishal was stormed and the time taken for the signal to be made was way over the limit.[/quote]

And pray tell how would he have known that it was over the limit given that he needed to see the beacon fire to even know that the battle had commenced? 

And why did he order nearly everyone away from that tower except for a handful of his own men after discovering a complicated network of tunnels under the tower? He must have at least suspected that tunnelling dark spawn might attempt to take the tower.

[quote]I agree he did say that this may not be a blight, but he did notice the increase in the numbers of the Darkspawn after every attack. [/quote]

And yet again, he did not warn the King that they needed to withdraw because there were too many darkspawn or that the battle was hopeless.  His only issue was with the King standing with the Gray Wardens, not with the supposed hopelessness of the battle.  It wasn't until after he withdrew that suddenly he started saying the battle was hopeless and he ordered his men to retreat in order to save them.

[quote]Not accepting the assistance of the Orlesians MIGHT be a mistake as we never really know what the Orlesians would've done after the war. [/quote]

The argument Loghain used in front of our player characters in the game to convince the King not to wait for the Orlesian reinforcements had nothing to do with whether Orlesians could be trusted. Instead he argued that the current forces were sufficient and thus there was no need to wait for the Orlesians.  Again, this contradicted his later story that the odds were hopeless. 

[quote]Simply leave or try to take over again. Watch the war plan strategy cutscene again, you'll notice that Loghain insists Cailan, not to join the front lines as it's too dangerous. Cailan practically orders him to shut up(you will remember who's King) and get on with the war strategy. [/quote]

Yes Loghain tells Cailan not to risk himself, but he never warns Cailan that the odds are hopeless or even bad. And when Cailan suggests waiting for the Orlesians, Loghain informs him that their current forces are sufficient. So of course Cailan was going to conclude that Loghain was just being over-protective and that the actual danger was minimal.

[quote]Whether he was really manipulating the King or not, we'll never know. [/quote]

Given that Eamon was poisoned BEFORE Ostagar I'm more inclined to believe that Loghain had planned it all along, especially when added to the fact that Howe murdered Bryce Cousland BEFORE Ostagar as well, and I just can't imagine Howe murdering the Couslands if he thought there was any liklihood that Cailan would live to bring him to justice.

[quote]The Beacon was to be lit after the Darkspawn horde has been softened up a bit, [/quote]

yes.

[quote]so I think it played an important role. Instead, it was lit after most of the army was dead so that really makes no sense in trying to flank them then. [/quote]

Not true. Watch that video again. the battle doesn't turn against the King's army until after Loghain orders his men to march away. Up until that point, and even for a very short while afterward, the King's forces are shown successfully holding their own.

[quote]Probably, Loghain couldn't notice the King's army's defeat at the hands of the Darkspawn because of all the chaos, but he was able to make out the constant enlargement of the Darkspawn horde and thus retreated in time.[/quote]

There is no indication that Loghain saw anything of the battle in the game aside from the lit signal fire which he chose to ignore.

[quote]As far as, when Duncan and King Cailan died, it could be that both, Loghain leaving the field and Cailan dying could've happened at nearly the same time. You wouldn't really expect a split screen effect in that serious scene would you? [/quote]

If that were the case then the video wouldn't have panned to the King's army holding it's own immediately after Loghain's larger force was shown marching away.  There was nothing even remotely simultaneous between Loghain's retreat and Cailan's death. Cailan's death happened only after the Darkspawn were able to wear down the King's forces due to Loghain's failure to attack the Darkspawn from the rear with his larger force as per both the plan he himself created and his king's orders. 

[quote]My question is, even if Loghain charged right after he saw the signal, would he be able to reach the army, in time to save the King? If a dev can provide us the approximate time gap between Loghain's retreat and King Cailan's death and the distance needed to cover to the battlefield, we'd have a definite answer. [/quote]

Honestly, I think they intentionally made it vague enough that this could be debated either way.  But I don't see how Loghain could have known the state of the battle since he was dependent on the signal fire to know that the battle had started.  And if he didn't know the state of the battle then he couldn't have made a decision right then and there based on non-existant knowledge that the King's forces were losing.

[quote]Blood Mage to poison the Arl. As I recall, Mr.Gaider already explained in a thread, that Loghain only poisoned the Arl so he will not have any interference by the Arl, when calling for the support of troops. He just wanted Eamon to be down for a while until his goals are achieved, not dead. We all know that the Blood Mage is the same runaway apprentice from the Circle tower, Jowan. If Loghain really wanted to get Eamon killed, he would've chosen a more professional Assassin/Blood Mage, like he did, on us. Loghain wasn't preventing Eamon's forces to enter the battle. He WANTED all the troops he can get, including the Redcliffe knights. If Eamon was well, he wouldn't provide any troops, will be persistent on the matter of the King's death and also try to prevent other nobles from supporting Loghain. [/quote]

Of course Eamon was going to oppose Loghain after Cailan's death, and I also never stated that Loghain poisoned Eamon to kill him. Nevertheless given that Eamon would have died without their intervention, my characters very understandably concluded on the information available to them in the game that Loghain had attempted to assassinate Eamon. I totally agree that  Loghain had him poisoned to prvent him from interfering with Loghain's goals. But you completely missed my point. Loghain poisoned Eamon BEFORE the Battle of Ostagar and that prevented Eamon's forces from showing up to support King Cailan. That means Loghain's "goals" were already set in motion before Cailan died...

[quote]Again, Loghain was trying to gather all the troops he can to fight the Horde, not to send the army to all parts of Ferelden to save commoners. Howe was the one who arranged the Assassin, not Loghain. Even though Loghain didn't want to(watch the cutscene when Zevran meets Loghain), he had no other choice, he needed to stop us from causing any more trouble. [/quote]

Howe recommended it, Loghain approved it. It doesn't matter if Loghain wasn't thrilled with the idea, he still authorized it.  And my characters have no way of knowing that Loghain was reluctant, only that he had ordered their assassination.  Oh and Loghain ordered our deaths even before that. Remember the fight at the tavern in Lothering?  It's just that his soldiers weren't up to the task of killing us, so he had to go with Howe's hiring of a "professional" instead.

[quote]

I agree that selling Elves to other nations as slaves was extreme and I myself stand against that. My view is that, Loghain thought he'd get his troops after shutting a few mouths and scaring a few rebels, but it wasn't even near to easy doing that, because of the Hero and his companions. [/quote]

Yet another one of Loghain's many  "bad calls". And he didn't sell them to just any nation, he sold them to Tevinter blood mages.  That meant many of them were going to be murdered to power blood magic spells.

[quote]I doubt Loghain and Howe planned out the Cousland massacre. Howe had personal grudges against the Couslands and always wanted to overtake Highever. Loghain needed his help so, I think he assumed that Loghain would turn a blind eye to what he had done to the Couslands after the war. But, like you, I myself have always felt, how convenient it was for Howe, when the King died. But that may just be a coincidence.[/quote]

Or it may not be.  Like I said earlier, there is quite a bit of circumstantial evidence pointing towards Loghain planning Cailan's death in advance. And he certainly had several reasons to consider it, from anger over Cailan's willingness to allow Orlesian troops back onto Ferelden soil to anger over the possibility that Cailan was planning to dump his daughter for the Orlesian Queen, perhaps both.

[quote]All in all, I understand your views but they are all mostly assumptions with loose ground, as are mine. So it's obvious we have varied opinions in these aspects. Let's not make this another 'Justice-to-Loghain' thread.[/quote]

LOL.  A little late at this point, but I'll try to wrap this off-topic disccusion up as quickly as possible.   And yes, we're both making assumptions here.  As I noted earlier, I believe the game designers purposely left things vague in order to encourage such debates.

Modifié par Vim, 23 juin 2010 - 12:01 .

[Xandurpein]

@Vim and Julian_Kraynog

Interesting debate. It's off topic, but then again, the original topic seems pretty dead anyway. So I'll add my two cents to your discussion.

First of all, I don't like the label you put on Anora. Anora is definitely not just an administrator. She is very much a leader and with a strong political vision. You may not like her vision, but she is clearly about more than just personal power.

Anora is not a leader for war, she is a leader for peace. If you look at the end card for Anora rules solo, you'll see the that she does bring prosperity and progress to Ferelden. She encourage trade and begins building a university. This is not just good house keeping, this is activly pushing to bring Ferelden from it's current backwardness into the future.

Alistair's agenda is peace, harmony and justice for the elves, while Anora's agenda is progress, prosperity and a strong Ferelden. The kind of progress that Anora will try to achieve seldom come without social discontent. Stronger trade, means wealthier merchants, which means that the merchants will gain influence at the cost of the old nobility, which may generate unrest.

As for the relationship between the PC and Anora, it is vastly different from the rlationship between Alistair and a PC. As far as Anora knows the PC can be her best friend or her worst enemy. There is simply no room in the game for the PC to really show his intentions towards her. That is why the game must make the relationship between the PC and Anora so shallow, because it must cover all bases.

Is there a possibility for the PC to get along with Anora, even come to love her? I think so, but we may never know. What we do know about Anora is that she is very strong willed, but also probably a lonely person. Cailan was really the only friend she ever had. It seems clear that she genuinly miss him, even if she knows that he cheated on her.

Personally I think that the way to her heart would be to first prove that you are not her enemy, and genuinly be her friend. Not until she trusts you and is your friend would she open her heart, I believe. Then again, it shouldn't be too hard to become "friends with benefits" either, if you set your goals a little lower.

Personally I like Anora a lot, (If you read my signatur you'd probably figured that out already) but I'm not blind to her bad sides either.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 23 juin 2010 - 08:54 .

[Vim]

Xandurpein wrote...

@Vim and Julian_Kraynog

Interesting debate. It's off topic, but then again, the original topic seems pretty dead anyway. So I'll add my two cents to your discussion.

First of all, I don't like the label you put on Anora. Anora is definitely not just an administrator. She is very much a leader and with a strong political vision. You may not like her vision, but she is clearly about more than just personal power.

I can only speak for myself, but in my opnion It isn't that Anora can't lead per say, but that she does best in one-on-one situations with the realm's educated upper crust.   She's a bit too cerebral and emotionally distant for the common people, and thus lacks that common touch which both Cailan and Alistair possess.  She remarks on it herself.  Surround her with a group of commoners or rank and file soldiers and she's a little out of her element.  So I suppose it depends on how we define an effective leader.  She certainly strives harder to make the best possible decisions than Cailan ever did. On the other hand she isn't as inspiring and the realm's population doesn't bond to her as strongly. That's a big reason why her father and Howe were able to so easily push her aside (along with her own very understandable trust in her father).  The common people believed in her father more than they did in her.  Had it been the other way around there would have been riots in Denerim, and an angry mob would have surrounded Howe's estate demanding that their Queen be released once the rumor of her imprisonment began to spread.

Anora is not a leader for war, she is a leader for peace. If you look at the end card for Anora rules solo, you'll see the that she does bring prosperity and progress to Ferelden. She encourage trade and begins building a university. This is not just good house keeping, this is activly pushing to bring Ferelden from it's current backwardness into the future.

I totally agree.  Nevertheless, how far beyond the country's elite this increasing prosperity extends under Anora's rule  is open to question.  Clearly it doesn't reach the Elves, whether or not it reaches the common folk isn't clear.

Alistair's agenda is peace, harmony and justice for the elves, while Anora's agenda is progress, prosperity and a strong Ferelden. The kind of progress that Anora will try to achieve seldom come without social discontent. Stronger trade, means wealthier merchants, which means that the merchants will gain influence at the cost of the old nobility, which may generate unrest.

Again, the game doesn't really give a sense of just how equitable Anora's progress & prosperity happens to be. There are plenty of rulers in history who increased prosperity for their country overall while simultaneously concentrating the wealth in the hands of the very few, leaving the majority of the population even worse off than they were before.   And given Anora's history, she seems all too willing to discard her morals for the sake of political expediency. That tends to leave the politically weak at the mercy of the politicially powerful. So I kind of get the feeling that without Alistair or a male noble to balance her out, the common folk won't see much benefit from this prosperity.

As for the relationship between the PC and Anora, it is vastly different from the rlationship between Alistair and a PC. As far as Anora knows the PC can be her best friend or her worst enemy. There is simply no room in the game for the PC to really show his intentions towards her. That is why the game must make the relationship between the PC and Anora so shallow, because it must cover all bases.

Pity that.

Is there a possibility for the PC to get along with Anora, even come to love her? I think so, but we may never know. What we do know about Anora is that she is very strong willed, but also probably a lonely person. Cailan was really the only friend she ever had. It seems clear that she genuinly miss him,

Agreed on all of the above.

even if she knows that he cheated on her.

Given her tendancy to spin past events in her own favor, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Cailan cheated on her because she repeatedly resisted sharing his bed, so tired of being rebuffed, he started looking elsewhere. I doubt very heavily that she'd share that sort of  tidbit with the Warden if such were the case, only the part that makes her appear the wronged wife.  Having read through all her dialogues with the toolset as well as the related localization comments, it seemed pretty clear to me that she was never "in love" with him, even if she did grow to "love" him over time the way an older sister does a younger brother, or perhaps a cherished pet.  And given that she was the dominant partner in that particular marriage, I could easily see her avoiding sex with him.  I can also easily see her being secretly happy about his affairs since then he wouldn't pester her for sex and she could spend her time enjoying what she enjoys most, running the country.  Giiven her father's comments in Awakening, there is a very strong implication that she doesn't like the idea of getting pregnant either.

Personally I think that the way to her heart would be to first prove that you are not her enemy, and genuinly be her friend. Not until she trusts you and is your friend would she open her heart, I believe. Then again, it shouldn't be too hard to become "friends with benefits" either, if you set your goals a little lower.

I agree for the most part.  Nevertheless I don't think it would ever occur to her on her own to desire a "friends with benefits" relationship.  Anora has learned to repress her sexual desires for the sake of her ambition. The feeling I get is that Anora isn't particularly experienced despite her 5 year marriage to Cailan. She tried sex with Cailan a few times, didn't particularly enjoy it due to a combination of his youthful ineptness and the fact that she wasn't attracted to him,   felt a bit threatened by his greater strength and size as well as her loss of control during the act, disliked the thought of getting pregnant and going through the trauma of giving birth, and so decided she could live just fine without sex.

Ostensibly due to her marital agreement with the Warden in return for his support, but also because he's just the sort of dashing, great hero she's always fantasized about being with, she's going to give sex another shot, this time with him.  Unlike Cailan she actually is attracted to him.  She's still not to thrilled with the idea of bearing a child however, and is even more wary that falling in love would make her more vulnerable to a man who could well be planning to steal her throne.  So how he handles her will directly impact whether or not she'll eventually lose interest and cut him off, learn to love it but keep him far from the levers of power due to mistrust, or learn to love it , fall in love with him and perhaps even learn to share power a bit better.  She's definitely highly vulnerable emotionally, her reaction to her father's execution proves she has a real heart, even if it is usually kept deeply buried underneath a political calculator.  And her comments regarding Cailan clearly demonstrate that deep down she yearns for a mate with whom she can share the burdens of rulership. Nevertheless she's also proud, strong-willed, highly shrewd, and just a tad paranoid.

Personally I like Anora a lot, (If you read my signatur you'd probably figured that out already) but I'm not blind to her bad sides either.

I think she's an extremely well written character.  My male human noble ends up forgiving her for her previous "betrayal" and marrying her anyway.  Of course some of my other characters despise her, but I let them all make up their own minds given their experiences in the game. 

[Dark Lilith]

Anora is an awesome powerful and crafty woman.She ran the country and indeed would make a good mate. Women like her are far and few between and she'd be a great catch

[Xandurpein]

Dark Lilith wrote...

Anora is an awesome powerful and crafty woman.She ran the country and indeed would make a good mate. Women like her are far and few between and she'd be a great catch

Agreed! And on top of that she is cute as hell when she is a bit awkward discussing the wedding at the Post coronation scene.

[Vim]

Dark Lilith wrote...

Anora is an awesome powerful and crafty woman.She ran the country and indeed would make a good mate. Women like her are far and few between and she'd be a great catch

Assuming her heart is successfully caught, yes. Otherwise her poor husband is in for a wife who thinks of him as little more than an expendable knight or rook on the chessboard that is Ferelden, a wife who won't hestiate to sacrifice him if the return is great enough for her.

[vanir4472]

Anora seems to be concerned only about herself and her queenship. She agrees to marry the human noble only because it would win her the throne. She cannot be trusted. Anora cares only about power. Alistair was raised under different circumstances. It was made clear to him that he had no place as a prince by Arl Eamon. So you cannot blame him if he acts awkward. Arl Eamon also says before the landsmeet that with time Alistair would make a great King. If u ask me Alistair is a much better choice for the throne. Alistair knows how hard life can be for the common people. He himself was a servant at Redcliffe before he became a templar. Anora seems to lack one quality every ruler needs.... CHARM.

Modifié par vanir4472, 26 juin 2010 - 03:58 .

[Cenwyn]

Vim wrote...

crono_clone wrote...

Alistair's honesty and integrity is why my male elf warden wishes he could romance him It was one of the qualities my warden learned to value after having failed his friend Jowan.

Anora may be brilliant, but after stabbing my warden in the back while he was attempting to help her, she will remain locked in that tower forever until in crumbles to the ground in the next Blight.

Having picked through Awakening's talktable file for the missing love letters, I decided to pick through Origins' talktable files too to see if I could pick up any interesting "lost" tidbits of text. And interestingly enough I found one pertaining to Anora that reads:

"Q u e e n   A n o r a   w a s   s e n t   a w a y   t o   l i v e   o u t   t h e   r e s t   o f   h e r   d a y s   i n   a   c l o i s t e r . "

I was wondering if anyone has seen this line at all in the game? I haven't.   It's found in the file core_en-us.tlk.

Hmmm interesting but after twelve playthroughs I have never seen this line come up at all. Even after doing all possible choices and decisions. I was always curious about that whole lock her in the tower incident.

[Cenwyn]

crono_clone wrote...

Alistair's honesty and integrity is why my male elf warden wishes he could romance him It was one of the qualities my warden learned to value after having failed his friend Jowan.

Anora may be brilliant, but after stabbing my warden in the back while he was attempting to help her, she will remain locked in that tower forever until in crumbles to the ground in the next Blight.

Agree with crono_clone on Alistair-My PC just cannot resist him. Yes some folks complain he whines to much but I overlook that. If he feels strongly about a decision or issue he will let you know about it. Whether you are male or female and end up in romance with him (PC version anyway) he is loyal to you. He literally does become that "knight in shining armor" that is so rare in this day and age but is nonetheless refreshing.  I will not allow him to marry Anora so i can keep him to myself or I make him king and I rule beside him. I don't like making people something they don't want to do even if it seems like it is for everyone's else's best interest. I let my male character hook up with Anora. He can match her personality anyday. Or if it suits my fancy I let Anora rule on her own. For all the chaos Fereldan is in because of Loghain's idiotic actions and paranoia sometimes it is just best to keep to keep her on the thrown so your main focus is the Blight.

Now for Anora. My first impression of her was "I am not sure how to take you". All faults aside she is a good ruler and strong one in the best sense of the word. Like all rulers you make good decisions and bad decisions. That just comes with the territory. But what really galled me was she did not stand up to her father more and she is queen? My personality would not have allowed his actions regardless of him being my father. She just seems to give up to easily when confronting him. Maybe that is just me because I would not back down. Though she did the next best thing and went behind his back. But I digress here.

 As stated before Anora needs a man who has mercy and compassion but is also strong to compliment her. Hence my male character cause he can duke it out with her when they disagree and he will hold his ground and not be a doormat.  My female character (human noble) will acknowledge and work with her as needed but that is far as it goes.  She will not hesitate to throw her in the tower if I feel like being a ****, but not before I joyfully behead Loghain with Alistair while she watches. 


Alistair and Anora have their good and bad qualities like all potential mates. But if one is willing to work with them, love them and overlook those faults I think happiness can be found.

[Xandurpein]

vanir4472 wrote...

Anora seems to be concerned only about herself and her queenship. She agrees to marry the human noble only because it would win her the throne. She cannot be trusted. Anora cares only about power. Alistair was raised under different circumstances. It was made clear to him that he had no place as a prince by Arl Eamon. So you cannot blame him if he acts awkward. Arl Eamon also says before the landsmeet that with time Alistair would make a great King. If u ask me Alistair is a much better choice for the throne. Alistair knows how hard life can be for the common people. He himself was a servant at Redcliffe before he became a templar. Anora seems to lack one quality every ruler needs.... CHARM.

That is the sort of one sided opinions I've come to expect from many players, who doesn't take the time to understand the difference between Alistair and Anora as rulers.

The fact that Arl Eamon says that Alistair would make a great king really means nothing. all Eamon really cares about is the Theirin blood line. He is as partial as anyone can be.

What we know about them as rulers is what we can se in the ending cards, describing what happens once they become rulers.

Anora will bring progress, education and economic gain to Ferelden. That's what it says in the ending card if you make her queen. She builds a university and increase trade. This is important if a backward country like Ferelden shall ahve a chance to retain it's independence. It's true that her agenda is more geared towards making Ferelden strong, than it is towards making life easier for the commoners and elves, but it's something very different than saying she is only in it for personal power.

Alistair will use his power to make life easier for the elves and have better personal charm ,but he simply lack the political vision to push for reformas like building a University.

I'm not saying this makes Anora better than Alistair, because it's all subjective. How sohuld the crown spend it's money? Build a university to increase education or use it to buy grain for the poor? It's up to everyone to decide which is best, but as a political scientist student my opinion is that Anora's agenda is better than Alistair's even if his may feel better at a first glance.

[vanir4472]

Alistair and Anora both have their good and bad qualities. Together they can rule much better than either of them could do alone. In time it is possible that Anora could love Alistair. But then again Anora seems questionable on the emotional side. It just my opinion. And cheers to Bioware for creating a game with great characters.

[Ulicus]

Vim wrote...
Giiven her father's comments in Awakening, there is a very strong implication that she doesn't like the idea of getting pregnant either.

Which is strange, purely from the perspective of her... well, being a Queen-Regnant who, supposedly, needs to produce heirs. Unless, of course, she has a grand plan to transform Ferelden into Naboo (of Star Wars fame) complete with an elected monarchy.

Heh. Actually, Anora trying to move Ferelden away from a hereditary monarchy doesn't even seem that far-fetched an idea. Given her own ascent to the throne, I doubt she's one who thinks blood trumps acumen.

[Vim]

Cenwyn wrote...

Vim wrote...

crono_clone wrote...

Alistair's honesty and integrity is why my male elf warden wishes he could romance him It was one of the qualities my warden learned to value after having failed his friend Jowan.

Anora may be brilliant, but after stabbing my warden in the back while he was attempting to help her, she will remain locked in that tower forever until in crumbles to the ground in the next Blight.

Having picked through Awakening's talktable file for the missing love letters, I decided to pick through Origins' talktable files too to see if I could pick up any interesting "lost" tidbits of text. And interestingly enough I found one pertaining to Anora that reads:

"Q u e e n   A n o r a   w a s   s e n t   a w a y   t o   l i v e   o u t   t h e   r e s t   o f   h e r   d a y s   i n   a   c l o i s t e r . "

I was wondering if anyone has seen this line at all in the game? I haven't.   It's found in the file core_en-us.tlk.

Hmmm interesting but after twelve playthroughs I have never seen this line come up at all. Even after doing all possible choices and decisions. I was always curious about that whole lock her in the tower incident.

Like I said, I didn't see it either in my playthroughs.  But it's still in Origin's talktable file, much like the love letters don't appear in Awakening, but still are present in Awakening's talktable file.  Assuming that its omission is also due to a bug, it implies that a surviving Alistair had Anora banished  to Ferelden's equivalent of a nunnery.  This makes perfect sense since it was fairly typical for kings to deal with politically powerful, but overly ambitious women by banishing them to a convent in olden times.