39 réponses à ce sujet

[Sable Phoenix]

I just wanted to observe how much the option to 'harden' Alistair after visiting Goldanna annoys me for certain characters.  There are something like six options in that conversation, but only one, "Everyone is out for themselves", actually gets Alistair to re-evaluate his approach to life.  The problem is that I've had a character or two who would never say that, yet who definitely feel that Alistair needs to buck up a bit.  Where's the option to say "You need to rely on yourself and not other people's opinion of you", or "You can't always count on getting what you want," or something similar?

A simple mod that would add something like those two lines as hardening options would be fantastic.  I'd do it myself if I knew how to use the toolset.

[Nerdage]

I always though that line seemed unnecessarily brutal, that's why I didn't try it until possibly my 6th playthrough, perhaps later, which is a shame because it probably is the 'right' thing to say and I preferred him afterwards.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Meh...I can't say I liked the hardening thing. Help Alistair to be less naive and to stand up for himself, sure, but not become *hard*. There's nothing wrong with being an idealist so long as you learn not to let people take advantage of that and run roughshod over you.



Pity there's no middleground, but I suppose there's post-Blight for characters to mature.

[Xandurpein]

Yeah. I like the idea of helping Alistair developing a bit more self confidence, but seriously. If I had bad self confidence myself and a friend told me that it's a jungle out there and everybody is just out for himself, I would probably hide under the table instead of growing a spine...

[Nu-Nu]

I would have liked to strengthen Alistair up as oppose to hardening. I want him to be more confident but hardening seems too extreme and bitter.

[nos_astra]

I only look at the outcome and handwave the way it is done. I click on that line and imagine a little discussion about how he lets people walk all over him that is simply the end of a long gradual change to more confidence and a tiny bit more selfish-ness.

It doesn't really matter to me what the text on this dialogue option is, I wouldn't take it for face value anyway.

Modifié par klarabella, 13 juin 2010 - 01:01 .

[highcastle]

IIRC, David Gaider said there were originally supposed to be more lines that would harden Alistair, but they were cut. Folk didn't realize until too late that only one line remained, and that it was easily the harshest in the bunch.

[errant_knight]

It may have been done that way for gameplay reasons, so it wouldn't be the obvious choice. Otherwise, virtually everyone would have picked it every time. Some choices are meant to be challenging.

Modifié par errant_knight, 13 juin 2010 - 03:11 .

[LadyDamodred]

highcastle: I do recall that being said, that is was supposed to be more like the Leliana one with more discussion to get to the point. While harsh, it's easy enough to rp it. *shrugs* Ah well. Would've been nice if it were in the toolset so it could be restored. *pouts*

[Xandurpein]

highcastle wrote...

IIRC, David Gaider said there were originally supposed to be more lines that would harden Alistair, but they were cut. Folk didn't realize until too late that only one line remained, and that it was easily the harshest in the bunch.

That makes sense. The choices are a lot better when talking to Leliana.

[Tinxa]

First time I played I didn't realise you could "harden" Alistair with anything and that it would have so much impact on the game. So I was just concerned with not losing approval and never chose that line because others were nicer and more supportive.

Really how is a player supposed to know a single line in a dialogue about his sister is going to make him a better king at the end? The two don't seem connected. I always thought I would have an option to give him confidence about being king later in the game. If not for the forums I would never find this out.

[Sarah1281]

I think all the origins have a reason that they could go the 'everyone is out for themselves' route. In the case of the HN they just had a long-time family friend massacre everyone in their castle for power, the mage had Jowan lying to them about blood magic and/or Irving using them to damn Lily to one-up the Chantry, and the CE had only two people in the entire Alienage willing to actually go after them and the other girls (or was one of two) even though they were all very upset and who afterwards blamed them for not just leaving Shianni behind to continue being raped because it would inconvenience them.

The DE had Duncan promising he would cure them...but not if they became a GW in return and they were raised to feel that way about humans in general anyway (and the treatment of elves by several NPCs is likely to reinforce this opinion about many humans although exceptions can be made), the DC was raised in a 'do what you have to do' environment where their sister was forced into prostitution while they had to be a thug and everyone either spat on them or used them for their own ends, and the DN was raised in a world where they knew everyone was out for themselves and, one way or another, their brother had screwed them over for power and their father - if they had gotten his note from Gorim - had for the sake of avoiding a scandal.

Given their background, they can all - no matter how much they care about Alistair - could see that being so easily crushed by one stupid, self-serving golddigger wasn't going to do him any favors particularly if Eamon got him way and made him King (which seems inevitable until Anora forces her way into the picture) and so tried to do him a favor.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 13 juin 2010 - 07:16 .

[Xandurpein]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Given their background, they can all - no matter how much they care about Alistair - could see that being so easily crushed by one stupid, self-serving golddigger wasn't going to do him any favors particularly if Eamon got him way and made him King (which seems inevitable until Anora forces her way into the picture) and so tried to do him a favor.

I agree with all this. My only complaint is that if I told a person with low self esteem that "everyone is out for himself" when he got hurt, I would not expect it to help him regain his confidence. I would think it more likely to scare him than to help him. So it's counter intuitive that this would actually affect him the way it does, in my opinion.

[Addai]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

I just wanted to observe how much the option to 'harden' Alistair after visiting Goldanna annoys me for certain characters.  

(husband)

Yes I haven't done it yet because you basically come of sounding like a dick, or your advocating a Machiavellan view of the world which is sort of Sociopathic or at least ruthless.     Of course my wife does it all the time and does so with some David Gaider interpretation of what was suppose to happen in this event.    According to her, the scene was cut down and the PC was suppose to give more an explanation of what they mean etc.      But the scene just doesn't come off well and Bioware has had plenty of chances to modify it.    I only tend to harden him when I play a more ruthless character that would actually say the lines "as is".

Modifié par Addai67, 14 juin 2010 - 01:17 .

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

Sable Phoenix wrote...

I just wanted to observe how much the option to 'harden' Alistair after visiting Goldanna annoys me for certain characters.  

(husband)

Yes I haven't done it yet because you basically come of sounding like a dick, or your advocating a Machiavellan view of the world which is sort of Sociopathic or at least ruthless.     Of course my wife does it all the time and does so with some David Gaider interpretation of what was suppose to happen in this event.    According to her, the scene was cut down and the PC was suppose to give more an explanation of what they mean etc.      But the scene just doesn't come off well and Bioware has had plenty of chances to modify it.    I only tend to harden him when I play a more ruthless character that would actually say the lines "as is".

Ok, serious question here.  How would you word it?  If you were playing on the PC and wanted it modded, what would be the exact word choice?  For everyone who doesn't like it, what WOULD you like?

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Even if there were other options for 'hardening' him...I'm not sure I like the sole outcome of a guy who would then be perfectly willing to cheat on his wife to be with the woman he actually loves.



Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, but I was impressed with unhardened Alistair saying it wouldn't be fair to keep seeing the PC, then sticking to that.

[Sarah1281]

ejoslin wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Sable Phoenix wrote...

I just wanted to observe how much the option to 'harden' Alistair after visiting Goldanna annoys me for certain characters.  

(husband)

Yes I haven't done it yet because you basically come of sounding like a dick, or your advocating a Machiavellan view of the world which is sort of Sociopathic or at least ruthless.     Of course my wife does it all the time and does so with some David Gaider interpretation of what was suppose to happen in this event.    According to her, the scene was cut down and the PC was suppose to give more an explanation of what they mean etc.      But the scene just doesn't come off well and Bioware has had plenty of chances to modify it.    I only tend to harden him when I play a more ruthless character that would actually say the lines "as is".

Ok, serious question here.  How would you word it?  If you were playing on the PC and wanted it modded, what would be the exact word choice?  For everyone who doesn't like it, what WOULD you like?

Hm... Is length an issue? Instead of:
"Everyone is out for themselves. You should learn that."
how about:
"You need to make your own happiness intead of relying on others to give it to you."
or
"Some people are just out for themselves and you need to be aware of that."
The first one, especially, makes his 'you're right, I need to stop letting people push me around' later make more sense.

[Kryyptehk]

Sarah1281 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Sable Phoenix wrote...

I just wanted to observe how much the option to 'harden' Alistair after visiting Goldanna annoys me for certain characters.  

(husband)

Yes I haven't done it yet because you basically come of sounding like a dick, or your advocating a Machiavellan view of the world which is sort of Sociopathic or at least ruthless.     Of course my wife does it all the time and does so with some David Gaider interpretation of what was suppose to happen in this event.    According to her, the scene was cut down and the PC was suppose to give more an explanation of what they mean etc.      But the scene just doesn't come off well and Bioware has had plenty of chances to modify it.    I only tend to harden him when I play a more ruthless character that would actually say the lines "as is".

Ok, serious question here.  How would you word it?  If you were playing on the PC and wanted it modded, what would be the exact word choice?  For everyone who doesn't like it, what WOULD you like?

Hm... Is length an issue? Instead of:
"Everyone is out for themselves. You should learn that."
how about:
"You need to make your own happiness intead of relying on others to give it to you."
or
"Some people are just out for themselves and you need to be aware of that."
The first one, especially, makes his 'you're right, I need to stop letting people push me around' later make more sense.

I think the wording is what is wrong with that line. The lines you said would be better than the original lines. It just seems so mean to say that to him, not like the friendly advice it is meant as.

[Sarah1281]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Even if there were other options for 'hardening' him...I'm not sure I like the sole outcome of a guy who would then be perfectly willing to cheat on his wife to be with the woman he actually loves.

Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, but I was impressed with unhardened Alistair saying it wouldn't be fair to keep seeing the PC, then sticking to that.

Well, unless he marries Anora who outright tells you that she is willing to accept it (though not happily) then he's not cheating with anyone yet and could very well dump you when he gets married.

[KnightofPhoenix]

*Resents the idea that someone accused Machiavelli of being a sociopath, so decides not to get in*

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Even if there were other options for 'hardening' him...I'm not sure I like the sole outcome of a guy who would then be perfectly willing to cheat on his wife to be with the woman he actually loves.

Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, but I was impressed with unhardened Alistair saying it wouldn't be fair to keep seeing the PC, then sticking to that.

Well, unless he marries Anora who outright tells you that she is willing to accept it (though not happily) then he's not cheating with anyone yet and could very well dump you when he gets married.

True, I suppose. But he still loses his chivalric, gentlemanly, respectful-of-women appeal.

[ejoslin]

Line length is an issue.

Edit: Since his line before that is:
I... I guess I was expecting her to accept me without question. Isn't that what family is supposed to do? I... I feel like a complete idiot.

How about something like:
Warden: This is why you have to take care of yourself first.

Modifié par ejoslin, 14 juin 2010 - 01:57 .

[Sarah1281]

ejoslin wrote...

Line length is an issue.

How long can it be? 

[ejoslin]

Or maybe, to fit with the next line:

Alistair: I... I guess I was expecting her to accept me without question. Isn't that what family is supposed to do? I... I feel like a complete idiot.
Warden: This is why you should take care of yourself first.
Alstiar: Yes. I suppose you're right. I should.

Edit: /shrug if anyone is interested in this line being put in, I can put it in.  You'd have to deal with all my Alistair changes, though, not just this one (and it wouldn't be compatible with anything that changes alistair_main.dlg so I'm not sure that there would be an interest -- I think most people who use ZDF use other things for their Alistair changes).

Modifié par ejoslin, 14 juin 2010 - 02:11 .

[maxernst]

The real difficulty with the line is that Alistair's weakness lies in insecurity not gullibility. Telling him that "everybody's out for themselves" just pushes him toward greater distrust of others. It doesn't do anything to make him more assertive.



I really think his whole personal quest is one of the weakest parts of the game. It seems as though hardening (at least in terms of its effects on his marriage with Anora) should make him more inclined to go after his own needs as opposed to his perceived duty, but that doesn't seem to have much relation to the Goldanna situation at all.