39 réponses à ce sujet

[Xandurpein]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Even if there were other options for 'hardening' him...I'm not sure I like the sole outcome of a guy who would then be perfectly willing to cheat on his wife to be with the woman he actually loves.

Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, but I was impressed with unhardened Alistair saying it wouldn't be fair to keep seeing the PC, then sticking to that.

I think that you may be reading a very modern view of what marriage is into this. I think that in a world where arranged royal marriages are commonplace it's simply to be accepted that infidelity, as long as it is done discreetly, would be much more accepted and "normal" than it is today. If you look at medieval romantic ballads it's very seldom about young couples who find true love and get married. It's more about cheating husbands and wives really.

People expected to marry one person and fall in love with someone else and then try to deal with it.

[Bahlgan]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Meh...I can't say I liked the hardening thing. Help Alistair to be less naive and to stand up for himself, sure, but not become *hard*. There's nothing wrong with being an idealist so long as you learn not to let people take advantage of that and run roughshod over you.

Pity there's no middleground, but I suppose there's post-Blight for characters to mature.

Understood and completely agreed!! I think Alistair should be hardened in the manner of becoming more used to life, just not to the point of this:

Alistair non-hardened as king - Warden, you are truly the most marvelous friend I could ever have. You have taught me much, I just wanna hold your hand, jump up for joy, and parade around in my fancy dancy golden Cailan armor set!!!111 This is the happiest day of meh life!!!!11

Alistair hardened as king - Warden, you made me king, now do us all a favor *burps after eating a chicken leg* go slay that forsaken Archdemon for me while I scratch my crack and get used to the throne room. Oh and uh *hands Warden empty chicken legbone* go fetch me another meal please! Yawwwwn,... *belch*

I know I know exaggerated, but still, I believe I made my point also 

[nos_astra]

Bahlgan wrote...
I know I know exaggerated, but still, I believe I made my point also 

Actually no, I didn't really understand your point.

[Xandurpein]

klarabella wrote...

Bahlgan wrote...
I know I know exaggerated, but still, I believe I made my point also 

Actually no, I didn't really understand your point.

Hardening Alistair makes him forget table manners?

[nos_astra]

Xandurpein wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Bahlgan wrote...
I know I know exaggerated, but still, I believe I made my point also 

Actually no, I didn't really understand your point.

Hardening Alistair makes him forget table manners?

And bedroom manners, too.

Modifié par klarabella, 14 juin 2010 - 01:08 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

What sucks is that there is little difference after hardening him, beyond the whole throne issue, and the romance, if there is one. Beyond that, there seems no shift in his attitude on anything, which seems to make hardening rather useless for most characters unless you plan on putting him on the throne.



I also don't like the way it's done, either, very OOC for most who actually like or care about him. Requires a touch of metagaming in such cases.

[Addai]

(husband posting)

 Ok, serious question here.  How would you word it?  If you were playing
on the PC and wanted it modded, what would be the exact word choice?
 For everyone who doesn't like it, what WOULD you like?

(husband)

There's a number of options -

"Allistair I love you (or "love you as a brother" for non-romance characters), but you got to toughen up!   IF you don't there are some very bad people who would take advantage of you."


"Allistair I love your kindness, mercy, and generosity, but some people are crooks and not worthy of such things."

Modifié par Addai67, 14 juin 2010 - 02:57 .

[Addai]

from Xanderpein

I think that you may be reading a very modern view of what marriage is
into this. I think that in a world where arranged royal marriages are
commonplace it's simply to be accepted that infidelity, as long as it
is done discreetly, would be much more accepted and "normal" than it is
today. If you look at medieval romantic ballads it's very seldom about
young couples who find true love and get married. It's more about
cheating husbands and wives really.

People expected to marry one person and fall in love with someone else and then try to deal with it.  


(husband)

Not necessarily.   First of all comes the question is how much is Fereldan suppose to be an equivalent to England of the 1200s?   And more exactly how much is the Chantry suppose to be an FRPG equivalent of Medieval Christianity, or what TV tropes would call "Crystal Dragon Jesus"?

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrystalDragonJesus


If the game is indeed making various allusions and equivalencies then marital fidelity is not a modern expectation but rather a realistic religious and cultural one of the setting.   Given the reluctance of the two chantry going NPC followers to engage in premarital relations (needing a minimum of 90 approval), I think it's completely realistic for them to have prohibitions against adultary.

Modifié par Addai67, 14 juin 2010 - 03:19 .

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

(husband posting)

 Ok, serious question here.  How would you word it?  If you were playing
on the PC and wanted it modded, what would be the exact word choice?
 For everyone who doesn't like it, what WOULD you like?

(husband)

There's a number of options -

"Allistair I love you (or "love you as a brother" for non-romance characters), but you got to toughen up!   IF you don't there are some very bad people who would take advantage of you."


"Allistair I love your kindness, mercy, and generosity, but some people are crooks and not worthy of such things."

Those won't work, they're much too long.  That's why I put in the suggestions I did earlier.  They need to be around the same length (sorry, I am not sure of the exact character count).

But seriously, quoting myself, what about this -- or something similar, but also similar in LENGTH -- and keep in mind Alistiar's lines both before and after the warden's line.  

I wrote...

Alistair: I... I guess I was expecting her to accept me without question. Isn't that what family is supposed to do? I... I feel like a complete idiot.
Warden: This is why you should take care of yourself first.
Alstiar: Yes. I suppose you're right. I should.

Edit: I have no problem putting in a softer line, but I really don't want to make this a major change to my Alistair file with recycled dialog and such because I don't think this will be wildly popular as it will conflict with other Alistair dialog mods.  So what should the warden say in response to what Alistair just said and will fit with Alistair's response?  Or is the one I wrote sufficient?  I'm not crazy about it, but the length is good and it fits in with the conversation at least.

I am giving anyone who wants it that nicer line  I just want to make sure that the line added is one that actually is liked!

Edit: But if no one's really interested, I won't bother either!  It won't ever be perfect given the restraints, and i can understand why people would be put off by them.

Modifié par ejoslin, 14 juin 2010 - 05:04 .

[Bahlgan]

klarabella wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Bahlgan wrote...
I know I know exaggerated, but still, I believe I made my point also 

Actually no, I didn't really understand your point.

Hardening Alistair makes him forget table manners?

And bedroom manners, too.

Yes YES!! That's what I was talking about! lol Alistair really actually becomes the pig he so jokingly described when he was chatting about his nasty eating habits fresh after the joining.

@klara, what my point is - both points are very extreme, they SHOULD find a center point in the middle for those who prefer. I for one am all for it.

[maxernst]

@ejoslin - Those lines would certainly be an improvement. They're also consistently appropriate regardless of the outcome of the Goldanna meeting. IIRC, If you make the persuasion check with Goldanna, Alistair doesn't ask you to give her money so the "out for themselves" seems a bit of a non sequitur.



I still think the more natural line for somebody who is romancing or really likes Alistair is the reassuring "you don't need her, you have people who care about you", though.

[ejoslin]

Oh, I agree that the most natural lines won't harden him. I suspect that the first playthrough is supposed to be heartbreaking and tragic with Alistair choosing duty over love.

Edit: Even with a human noble female, if you trust Eamon and believe that appearing power hungry will hurt your chances at the landsmeet, there's a chance you won't choose the "Alistair will rule and I'll rule beside him," line and instead be expecting a proposal from him afterwards instead of the dumping.

Modifié par ejoslin, 14 juin 2010 - 06:18 .

[ejoslin]

 I have a mod up that gives a nicer "hardening" line up in my projects called alistair_main_nicer_change_line.rar .  The rest of ZDF is on DANexus (the other files up there are builder to builder files, not the mod itself and do not work as a mod). The line was written by Xandurpein and I think catches the spirit of hardening him but is still a lot more supportive.

This is not compatible with Alistair Dialog Patch, Romance Scenes Combined, tmp7704's romance mod (it's fine with any mod that does NOT change alistair_main.dlg), though I have no problem with them incorporating the line into their mods as I'm not the one who wrote it.  For permission to use the line, of course, these authors would have to ask Xandurpein.

This file is the same as my ZDF Alistair change without any changes to Ostegar.  If there actually is an interest in this, I can always release a version that does have those changes.

Modifié par ejoslin, 14 juin 2010 - 09:01 .

[LadyDamodred]

ejoslin wrote...

 I have a mod up that gives a nicer "hardening" line up in my projects called alistair_main_nicer_change_line.rar .  The rest of ZDF is on DANexus (the other files up there are builder to builder files, not the mod itself and do not work as a mod). The line was written by Xandurpein and I think catches the spirit of hardening him but is still a lot more supportive.

This is not compatible with Alistair Dialog Patch, Romance Scenes Combined, tmp7704's romance mod (it's fine with any mod that does NOT change alistair_main.dlg), though I have no problem with them incorporating the line into their mods as I'm not the one who wrote it.  For permission to use the line, of course, these authors would have to ask Xandurpein.

This file is the same as my ZDF Alistair change without any changes to Ostegar.  If there actually is an interest in this, I can always release a version that does have those changes.

What did you end up going with for the line?  Nm.

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 14 juin 2010 - 09:10 .

[ejoslin]

*grin* I wasn't sure if I should include that in the description, but this is it.



Alistair: I... I guess I was expecting her to accept me without question. Isn't that what family is supposed to do? I... I feel like a complete idiot.

Warden: You don't need her. You should find your own happiness.

Alstiar: Yes. I suppose you're right. I should.