9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Syledir]

sagequeen wrote...

Bookman230 wrote...

Anyway, I have a suggestion, one I'm suprised no one brought up. Just include a option in the options. Do you want there to be strictly heterosexuals in your game, strictly les/gay squad members in your game, or all bi. Then you could simply make your choice later in the game without being locked into it like someone pointed out the crush system might do.

i think this has been mentioned, but i don't know if it was mentioned in this thread. it was in sw33ts original FAQ.

i think this is ideal:

set character sex, appearance, backstory, and orientation. this will enable romance options accordingly. it would also serve as a great parental control for those who wish to turn off all romance options - either if they're letting kids or teens play (though, with the violence/M rating that might be a bit unlikely) OR for those who simply find the LI stuff boring.

I have mentioned it in this thread and the last. Page 6 or 7, I believe. Although I wasn't the only one:

During character creation you would have to decide which gender, skin colour, etc. Shepard has. Simply put "sexual preference" as an additonal option on the character creator. Options: Hetero; only NPCs of the opposite sex are romanceable. ******: only NPCs of the same sex are romanceable. Bi: Every NPC is romanceable. That way there wouldn't be any "accidents".

I don't see the need to turn off all the romance but I wouldn't have a problem with it, aslong as it is optional.

[elearon1]

>>existing character, which we guide in a third-person perspective (and by that I mean the storytelling, not the TPS mechanics), who is... let's face it: straight.<<



Actually Fem Shepard is apparently bi, as she can have a relationship with males or Liara with equal ease. (and whatever BW wants to say, the Asari are matriarchal, have female organs, are typically female gendered, and are thus women; certainly Liara's gender is female)



That said, I admit that lesbians have it slightly better in the game, but I'm not sure where people are getting these "lesbians have all these options" statements. You get Liara in the first game, while you *can* try to romance Samara in the second it doesn't happen - just as you *can* try to romance Miranda, Tali, Ash or Jack and have nothing actually happen. (There are certainly dialogues with Tali and Jack which seem flirtatious enough to allow one to easily feel like they are trying to engage either one in a relationship)



Oh, yeah, you can sleep with Kelly - but it isn't really a relationship, more like some a sexual encounter with someone you picked up in a bar. And while sex is fine and dandy, it doesn't replace the connection a deeper love interest line grants. (and the way she behaves, presumably anyone in the ship could sleep with Kelly - especially the aliens - which isn't necessarily a problem, I support women's rights to be as promiscuous as men; but again, it's shallow)



So lesbians have it a little better, but let us not behave as though they are just another part of the "boys' club" with the gay men sitting on the sidelines all alone.



As for adding characters vs altering them - well Thane really does seem like the type to go both ways anyway, so I don't think it would damage his character much - same with Jack. (and I like to think Tali) Then there were some who were supposed to be bi originally and so it can't hurt their characters to add that option back in. I agree, not everyone should be romancable by everyone - Dragon Age did a fine job with this by giving the homosexual crowd of both influences one well developed character they could each romance and having others who were distinctly hetero - so you could have something for everyone without having to compromise characterization.



But not only would adding new characters to the game be costly, it would also be a tacked on element that didn't really mesh with the rest. I mean, Zaeed and the thief girl (who's name I'm blanking on) are great, but they aren't really part of the game like the original characters were and as such they will always be outsiders - extras. People aren't only complaining that they can't sex up someone of the same Sex, they are complaining that none of the characters with meaningful parts to play in the story are homosexual, thus cutting that community out of one important element of the game's rp experience. Just adding another peripheral character to the edges of the game would be little better than placing a same sex prostitute on a planet and saying "there you go!". (well, maybe a *little* better, but not much)

[elearon1]

Oh yes, something else I wanted to point out - I have seen a number of people refer to Bioware as homophobes and claiming this is why they left out homosexual relationships - but in truth Bioware has long been the company willing to touch these topics and allow same sex relationships in their games. Kotor 1&2, Jade Empire, Dragon Age, Baldur's Gate 2, and some I'm forgetting all have same sex relationship options - so it is unfair to label them as homophobic merely because they made a (I would agree, poor) decision to leave that out of the Mass Effect series.

At least give the folks credit for the inroads they *have* made toward inclusive romance in the crpg world.

Modifié par elearon1, 16 juin 2010 - 01:19 .

[Syledir]

slimgrin wrote...

sagequeen wrote...

Bookman230 wrote...

Anyway, I have a suggestion, one I'm suprised no one brought up. Just include a option in the options. Do you want there to be strictly heterosexuals in your game, strictly les/gay squad members in your game, or all bi. Then you could simply make your choice later in the game without being locked into it like someone pointed out the crush system might do.

i think this has been mentioned, but i don't know if it was mentioned in this thread. it was in sw33ts original FAQ.

i think this is ideal:

set character sex, appearance, backstory, and orientation. this will enable romance options accordingly. it would also serve as a great parental control for those who wish to turn off all romance options - either if they're letting kids or teens play (though, with the violence/M rating that might be a bit unlikely) OR for those who simply find the LI stuff boring.

I think the conversations can work effectively enough in this regard. If a same sex npc is making subtle advances, or hell, even not so subtle advances, the player can choose the right dialogue option to make it clear he/she isn't interested. Like real life. A sexual orientation option at the start of the game seems unlikely to happen.

I don't want to contradict you, but when people say that no homosexuall NPCs on a tiny space vessel isn't unrealistic, one cannot say they're wrong. However it is a game, so it should have been made possible. At the same time one doesn't want to make others uncomfortable, so sexual orientation check during character creation offers a good option to avoid annoying dialogues with unwanted love interests. One cannot demand same sex romance because it is a game and than dismiss sexual orientation during character creation because it isn't like real life.

No offense.

[Torpasia]

Just wanted to throw in my ongoing support for this thread. Keep it up, brothers and sisters. Bioware has handled gay romances in previous games so well that it really is disconcerting that they're now ****footing around it in the sequel to my favorite game ever. My MaleSheps and FemSheps are gay, goshdarnit!

Also, for those of you who think a hardcore, badass, military guy like Shepard couldn't be gay, do yourself a favor and look up the Sacred Band of Thebes: http://en.wikipedia...._Band_of_Thebes

Modifié par Torpasia, 16 juin 2010 - 02:11 .

[SuperMedbh]

slimgrin wrote...

I think the conversations can work effectively enough in this regard. If a same sex npc is making subtle advances, or hell, even not so subtle advances, the player can choose the right dialogue option to make it clear he/she isn't interested. Like real life. A sexual orientation option at the start of the game seems unlikely to happen.

Dragon's Age was like that for the males.  It was easy enough for my boy Warden to tell Zev that he'd rather not be stared at like that.  On the other hand, Liliana seems to assume a romance with the woman Warden without any "Sorry, like you but not that way" options.  Then again, there really are people who behave that way.

Personally, I don't see what the big deal is.  I wasn't bothered by the FemWarden/Liara relationship (and c'mon, Liara looks like a woman--  if she looked like a blue Jacob, would all the boys still be so hot for her?) or the Kelly relationship.  In fact, all my Sheps romance Kelly.  If she'll take care of my fish, I'm willing to go gay for her  

[r3ap3r17098]

can anyone help me what armour to get for my rouge archer level 12 with 35 strength and 33 dexterity

[LiquidGrape]

[Purge]

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 18 juillet 2010 - 12:41 .

[Zontral]

You've stated that you want to hear from "both sides of the fence", so I'll present my feelings on this.

I agree entirely with Ray Mazuka's article that was posted in the opening posts on this topic.  In ME, the story is more of playing out a narrative from a 3rd person point of view, where the character is already created and has their personality somewhat defined, as opposed to creating an entirely new and unique character with a new personality, such as in DA.  I support the view that if you stick with a pre-defined character, you can create a much deeper personality for that character, and to me, this is much better than the open-ended system.  Since in dialogues you're selecting topics as opposed to statements, you sometimes don't really know what's going to be said, and so you are indeed following a more pre-defined path.

The base concept of 3rd person vs 1st person narrative is very different, so I do not see it as a lack of consistency in that some of the games are lacking same-sex relationships, since the story is being told in a very different way in both systems.  It isn't fair to look at different games and assume that they were created in the same way and then complain that one is missing something.  That's like going to a vineyard that grows both seeded and seedless grapes, eating one of each, and then complaining to the owner that the grapes don't taste the same, despite both being grapes... it doesn't make any sense!

As for the female relationship with Liara, we should not be applying the definition of a human female to non-humans (i.e. physical appearance, voice, actions, etc), especially for those species that can be asexual.  This doesn't make any sense either!  Bioware tried to break away from the idea that all aliens are very human-like, and this can be seen in how various species act.  I VERY much appreciate their efforts to do this, and I don't feel that we should be taking a step back towards the view that despite looking different, aliens are just human.


I've included the Ray Mazuka article below for those that want to read it, and because I feel that it sums up a lot of my feelings on this issue.

sw33ts wrote...

Ray Mazuka said:
Here's how the games are different: Dragon Age is a first person narrative, where you're taking on an origin and a role, and you are that character at a fundamental level. It's fundamentally about defining your character, including those kinds of concepts. In Mass Effect it's more a third person narrative, where you have a pre-defined character who is who he is, or she is. But it's not a wide-open choice matrix. It's more choice on a tactical level with a pre-defined character. So they're different types of narratives, and that's intentional.

We're not saying that one approach is better than the other. In our previous games, as we did in Jade Empire, as we did in KOTOR, as we did in Baldur's Gate, and many games before and in the future, we enable those kinds of choices, whereas in Mass Effect it's more about Shepard as a defined character with certain approaches and worldviews, and that's just who he or she is. So we constrain the choice set somewhat, but enable more tactical choices and enable a deeper, richer personality, because it's more focused around defining one character, it's not as wide open. But that's by choice.

It's first person versus third person narrative, and the types of choices you get to make within that are related to that, whether you've got a pre-defined character or a wide-open character. Some of our games have been wide open, and some have been more constrained, and we'll probably continue both kinds of character development in the future.
-From: http://xbox360.ign.c.../1066954p2.html

[Bookman230]

Zontral wrote...

You've stated that you want to hear from "both sides of the fence", so I'll present my feelings on this.

I agree entirely with Ray Mazuka's article that was posted in the opening posts on this topic.  In ME, the story is more of playing out a narrative from a 3rd person point of view, where the character is already created and has their personality somewhat defined, as opposed to creating an entirely new and unique character with a new personality, such as in DA.  I support the view that if you stick with a pre-defined character, you can create a much deeper personality for that character, and to me, this is much better than the open-ended system.  Since in dialogues you're selecting topics as opposed to statements, you sometimes don't really know what's going to be said, and so you are indeed following a more pre-defined path.

The base concept of 3rd person vs 1st person narrative is very different, so I do not see it as a lack of consistency in that some of the games are lacking same-sex relationships, since the story is being told in a very different way in both systems.  It isn't fair to look at different games and assume that they were created in the same way and then complain that one is missing something.  That's like going to a vineyard that grows both seeded and seedless grapes, eating one of each, and then complaining to the owner that the grapes don't taste the same, despite both being grapes... it doesn't make any sense!

As for the female relationship with Liara, we should not be applying the definition of a human female to non-humans (i.e. physical appearance, voice, actions, etc), especially for those species that can be asexual.  This doesn't make any sense either!  Bioware tried to break away from the idea that all aliens are very human-like, and this can be seen in how various species act.  I VERY much appreciate their efforts to do this, and I don't feel that we should be taking a step back towards the view that despite looking different, aliens are just human.


I've included the Ray Mazuka article below for those that want to read it, and because I feel that it sums up a lot of my feelings on this issue.

sw33ts wrote...

Ray Mazuka said:
Here's how the games are different: Dragon Age is a first person narrative, where you're taking on an origin and a role, and you are that character at a fundamental level. It's fundamentally about defining your character, including those kinds of concepts. In Mass Effect it's more a third person narrative, where you have a pre-defined character who is who he is, or she is. But it's not a wide-open choice matrix. It's more choice on a tactical level with a pre-defined character. So they're different types of narratives, and that's intentional.

We're not saying that one approach is better than the other. In our previous games, as we did in Jade Empire, as we did in KOTOR, as we did in Baldur's Gate, and many games before and in the future, we enable those kinds of choices, whereas in Mass Effect it's more about Shepard as a defined character with certain approaches and worldviews, and that's just who he or she is. So we constrain the choice set somewhat, but enable more tactical choices and enable a deeper, richer personality, because it's more focused around defining one character, it's not as wide open. But that's by choice.

It's first person versus third person narrative, and the types of choices you get to make within that are related to that, whether you've got a pre-defined character or a wide-open character. Some of our games have been wide open, and some have been more constrained, and we'll probably continue both kinds of character development in the future.
-From: http://xbox360.ign.c.../1066954p2.html

You forgot Kelly. She's human, she's bi, Female Shrp can sleep with her. Also, how, in any way, is Shep pre deifined? You choose his background, his morality, his looks, his gender, his romance(partially). That doesn't excatly scream pre difined to me. Somehow having a voice changes Shepard from the Grey Warden?

[AirborneMind]

I support gay relations in Mass Effect after Shepard's story is concluded. The only reason I would exclude it from ME3 is it would create a break in the narrative. Why would he--and I can only refer to the male Shepard here--suddenly show homosexual tendencies after not doing so in the first two games? It would be small inconsistency, but it would bug me. If it were included though, I imagine I'd quickly get over it.

[Bookman230]

AirborneMind wrote...

I support gay relations in Mass Effect after Shepard's story is concluded. The only reason I would exclude it from ME3 is it would create a break in the narrative. Why would he--and I can only refer to the male Shepard here--suddenly show homosexual tendencies after not doing so in the first two games? It would be small inconsistency, but it would bug me. If it were included though, I imagine I'd quickly get over it.

I can understand that. So if they included DLC for ME1(though it's very, very, unlikely) or for ME2 you would be okay with that?

[Bookman230]

The Uncanny wrote...

sagequeen wrote...

i think this has been mentioned, but i don't know if it was mentioned in this thread. it was in sw33ts original FAQ.

i think this is ideal:

set character sex, appearance, backstory, and orientation. this will enable romance options accordingly. it would also serve as a great parental control for those who wish to turn off all romance options - either if they're letting kids or teens play (though, with the violence/M rating that might be a bit unlikely) OR for those who simply find the LI stuff boring.

On the one hand I rather bridle at the concept of sexual orientation being defined in such an either/or binary fashion. On the other the pragmatist in me can see that this solves an awful lot of issues.

How is this different from the crush system, who would make a spefic person gay,bi, or les? It achieves the same purpouse, without the hassle.

[KateKane]

AirborneMind wrote...

I support gay relations in Mass Effect after Shepard's story is concluded. The only reason I would exclude it from ME3 is it would create a break in the narrative. Why would he--and I can only refer to the male Shepard here--suddenly show homosexual tendencies after not doing so in the first two games? It would be small inconsistency, but it would bug me. If it were included though, I imagine I'd quickly get over it.

But really any inconsistancies with Shepard's character are up to the player. S/he can threaten to murder people one minute and give them hugs the next. S/he only expresses interest in someone if the players wills it.

[sagefic]

The Uncanny wrote...

sagequeen wrote...

i think this has been mentioned, but i don't know if it was mentioned in this thread. it was in sw33ts original FAQ.

i think this is ideal:

set character sex, appearance, backstory, and orientation. this will enable romance options accordingly. it would also serve as a great parental control for those who wish to turn off all romance options - either if they're letting kids or teens play (though, with the violence/M rating that might be a bit unlikely) OR for those who simply find the LI stuff boring.

On the one hand I rather bridle at the concept of sexual orientation being defined in such an either/or binary fashion. On the other the pragmatist in me can see that this solves an awful lot of issues.

my thinking here is that you could set it to bi. bi would enable all LIs. thus, you would get any potential LIs making advances to your character. the "straight" and "gay" toggles would disable the same/opposite sex LIs, a full "off" toggle would disable all LI interaction.

i understand that's not totally ideal, but

1) it would allow for same-sex LIs

2) it would allow people who are 'weirded out' by gay or bi romance to not have it in their game.

3) it would respect the idea that sexual orientation is part of who a person is. thus, you can set that orientation at the character creation. i see it as an opportunity to better create a fully realized character and have the world respond to said character accordingly.

i hear you, it's not perfect, and LIs always get a little either/or on/off and some point. but i think this would be a good solution for both those who want same-sex LIs, those who want to play all possibilities, those who want their LIs straight only, and those who want to turn off the "dating sim"

it would also be cool if there were extra cut-scenes/eye-candy moments if you set a preference. (i.e., miranda's butt shot is only if you toggle on the seeking-female romance, show gratutitous man-without-shirtscene if setting the seeking-male romances, etc.) but maybe that's too much to hope for 

Modifié par sagequeen, 16 juin 2010 - 06:20 .

[JaylaClark]

Just coming on to show support, and to mention one thing:

It's odd how I haven't seen much about Leliana in these discussions yet, but I'd like to point out that not only does she have a trigger sequence to the f/f romance, but it's pretty obvious to my eyes ... she's clearly flirting, and you clearly flirt back, and it's an active romance.  As opposed to Alistair, I stumbled into his romance and had to break up with him without even intending to start anything.

I know the problem is that ME isn't as clearly laid out as other BioWare RPGs, but I still think it's possible to include a trigger dialogue option on the wheel that's worded clearly enough.  The question is, would they put in that effort?

But it definitely should be a case of user initiation, just like in the Sims series where orientation is Schrodinger's Cat until the first directed flirt of the character.  (And that's also my response to 'ME is the mainstream game, EA wants to keep gays out of it'... ain't nothing more mainstream than the Sims, and their version of reality has everyone bisexual (potentially)!)

[Syledir]

Bookman230 wrote...

The Uncanny wrote...

sagequeen wrote...

i think this has been mentioned, but i don't know if it was mentioned in this thread. it was in sw33ts original FAQ.

i think this is ideal:

set character sex, appearance, backstory, and orientation. this will enable romance options accordingly. it would also serve as a great parental control for those who wish to turn off all romance options - either if they're letting kids or teens play (though, with the violence/M rating that might be a bit unlikely) OR for those who simply find the LI stuff boring.

On the one hand I rather bridle at the concept of sexual orientation being defined in such an either/or binary fashion. On the other the pragmatist in me can see that this solves an awful lot of issues.

How is this different from the crush system, who would make a spefic person gay,bi, or les? It achieves the same purpouse, without the hassle.

I believe the difference is that you have to choose your crush from the very beginning of the game. If you change your mind regarding your romantic interest you would have to start a new game. That wouldn't be the case with the sexual orientation concept.

[Syledir]

sagequeen wrote...

The Uncanny wrote...

sagequeen wrote...

i think this has been mentioned, but i don't know if it was mentioned in this thread. it was in sw33ts original FAQ.

i think this is ideal:

set character sex, appearance, backstory, and orientation. this will enable romance options accordingly. it would also serve as a great parental control for those who wish to turn off all romance options - either if they're letting kids or teens play (though, with the violence/M rating that might be a bit unlikely) OR for those who simply find the LI stuff boring.

On the one hand I rather bridle at the concept of sexual orientation being defined in such an either/or binary fashion. On the other the pragmatist in me can see that this solves an awful lot of issues.

my thinking here is that you could set it to bi. bi would enable all LIs. thus, you would get any potential LIs making advances to your character. the "straight" and "gay" toggles would disable the same/opposite sex LIs, a full "off" toggle would disable all LI interaction.

i understand that's not totally ideal, but

1) it would allow for same-sex LIs

2) it would allow people who are 'weirded out' by gay or bi romance to not have it in their game.

3) it would respect the idea that sexual orientation is part of who a person is. thus, you can set that orientation at the character creation. i see it as an opportunity to better create a fully realized character and have the world respond to said character accordingly.

i hear you, it's not perfect, and LIs always get a little either/or on/off and some point. but i think this would be a good solution for both those who want same-sex LIs, those who want to play all possibilities, those who want their LIs straight only, and those who want to turn off the "dating sim"

it would also be cool if there were extra cut-scenes/eye-candy moments if you set a preference. (i.e., miranda's butt shot is only if you toggle on the seeking-female romance, show gratutitous man-without-shirtscene if setting the seeking-male romances, etc.) but maybe that's too much to hope for 

I like your idea about the extra cut-scenes and I don't think its too much to hope for. More like perfect material for the (hopefully) upcoming romance DLC.

[Annie_Dear]

LiquidGrape wrote...

Cleopatra II wrote...

Anyone who thinks a gay guy can't be tough.....doesn't even need to be explained to. It makes no sense. Gay Maleshep will kick your arse.

And he'll do it with class.

I approve of this picture.

[Wittand25]

You know all these things with a toggle or turning of romances in the options are not needed. Bioware already had the perfect compromise on how to include an s/s romance in Jade Empire. The only way to start an m/Sky or f/Fox romance in JE was to first turn down the straight option (which is realistic being homosexual does not stop members of the other sex to show interest in you after all) and then stating interest in the same sex partner. That way it was next to impossible to start an unwanted homosexual romance (most players did not even know it existed).
Something similar could be done for ME2 in a DLC. E.g. after Sheppard turns down all three LIs in the next dialog with Joker, Kelly or some other npc (like the possible option themself, to reduce VO cost) on the ship the topic of all the disappointed LIs comes up and Sheppard gets a dialog option that clearly expresses his/her interest in members of the same sex ( for female Sheppards this could be a little silly after Liara, the consort and Kelly) that unlocks the romance which starts the next time Sheppard talks with the npc that functions as same-sex LI.
This way the player has to request this romance and players dont wanting even a trace of m/m in their game could just choose a neutral answer that does not activate the romance in their playthrough.

Modifié par Wittand25, 16 juin 2010 - 07:56 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Did Kotor, Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 have S/S romances?