9243 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterDyslexo]

^ It can. It depends on what you want you choose to do. Its very sweet from what I hear and sets a new standard for romances.

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 26 septembre 2010 - 11:12 .

[Cootie]

I stand corrected. In my defense, it is late at night and I had asari taboos on my mind.



(Not really. Stop judging me.)

[Cootie]

yorkj86 wrote...

Cootie wrote...

Although I do think we can draw parallels between Asari-Asari relationships and gay/bisexual relationships in modern Earth's society, considering the amount of taboo and stigma.

I thought of it as how there is still the taboo against inter-racial relationships, and having mixed children, in modern Earth society.  I know it might be controversial to say that the taboo still exists, and it may be dying, but it's still there.  Anyway, it's the reverse of the aforementioned taboo - if you're not "mixed", there's something wrong with you, and your parents are deviants for not making sure to produce a "mixed" child. 

First, there was probably another taboo, when asari first found that they could at least produce children by mind-joining with non-asari.  They might view asari/non-asari pairings as deviant.  Then, that passed.  Now, asari/asari pairings are deviant, or so they're supposed to think.  There appear to be people who are opposed to the taboo though (the asari who lost her bondmate and her children), though.  She doubts that asari children receive anything from the "father", and that would make the taboo silly, if she's correct.

I agree very much with the second paragraph. And I'm not saying that the first one is in any way incorrect, I just thought of it a tad differently, perhaps a bit literally.

The parallels I was thinking of were the "You have to like someone of the opposite sex" versus the "You have to like someone of another species". And if you do the reverse in either case, you are viewed as a minority or, well, you know.
(Not trying to get into a discussion about modern day society here, let's focus on the asari)

So, yeah, while you were reminded of issues regarding ethnicity, I was reminded of homosexuality issues.

[SimonTheFrog]

Cootie wrote...

Yes, yes, it does continue the relationship between FemShep and Liara if you chose to romance her in ME-1. It's a very realistic (in ME-terms) and it doesn't feel all too tacky. It's probably the best developed romance in the game right now, thanks to that DLC.

Thank you very much indeed! <3

[elearon1]

I think the inter-racial breeding taboo is closer to the mark; after all, you can still have children with other Asari, but the issue seems to be about genetics specifically.



And I don't understand the statement about how the game is misleading us as to the taboo over Asari-Asari relationships ... why would the game make a point of feeding us misinformation about a social matter explained and demonstrated to us on multiple occasions? If you listen to conversations between the Asari on Ilium you hear the one saying "Admit it, you were going to call me a 'pure blood' weren't you?" and the other "No, I would never say that!" "But you were thinking it!"



Sounds like an established stigma to me.

[Ziggy]

Cootie wrote...
Although I do think we can draw parallels between Asari-Asari relationships and gay/bisexual relationships in modern Earth's society, considering the amount of taboo and stigma.

The reasoning behind it, however, is that asari are not very  genetically diverse, so a more fitting earthly parallel would probably be cousins having kids together.

[elearon1]

yorkj86 wrote...  If it's a silly taboo that amouns to little more than superstition, one would hope that the super-advanced asari wouldn't take it so seriously. 

Two issues here: One, I don't think it is just a silly superstitious taboo.  Though you encounter one Asari who claims the children receive nothing from their father, we do see some differences in personality and even slight difference in appearance in a few Asari who - for instance - are the children of Krogan and Asari parents.  Part of the personality issue is upbringing, but the minor physical differences are not.  

If Asari reproduction actually works the way Liara tells us it does, then the introduction of new material into the culture is important in preventing it from stagnating.  From what I gather the addition isn't merely or even prominently genetic, but more fundamental - the Asari take something from what it means to be a member of that race and add it to their prodigy.  This allows them to expand and evolve in new directions - which could be very important for a race so long lived. 

Second, "superstitions" can be quite powerful and have a lot of impact on a society and a people.  The inability to accept something greater than one's self can be seen as a form of ignorance just as putting too much stock in the unproven can be.  Religions are a form of superstition, yet they have vast influence on people of every conceivable upbringing.  It is silly to simply sweep an entire belief structure under the rug because one outspoken person disagrees with its legitimacy.  

As to why you see so many pure blood Asari, I think the issue is that it is easier for Asari to fall in love with other Asari - seeing as few races are as long lived as they and those that are, such as the Krogan, share few personal interests which would promote long term relationships.  Thus mating with non Asari might be highly preferable, but any lasting relationship is typically going to have to occur between members of the race ... and after spending a while with someone you love, you are likely to want to make children with them.  

[Ares Caesar]

Em23 wrote...

Cootie wrote...
Although I do think we can draw parallels between Asari-Asari relationships and gay/bisexual relationships in modern Earth's society, considering the amount of taboo and stigma.

The reasoning behind it, however, is that asari are not very  genetically diverse, so a more fitting earthly parallel would probably be cousins having kids together.

I think thats probably true and more accurate given that its more about reproductive aspects than actual emotional/relationship based aspects. I'm sure no Asari really cares if two Asari love each other, more that they produce pureblood Asari children which do not likely enhance the genetic evolution of the species.

[Ares Caesar]

elearon1 wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...  If it's a silly taboo that amouns to little more than superstition, one would hope that the super-advanced asari wouldn't take it so seriously. 

Two issues here: One, I don't think it is just a silly superstitious taboo.  Though you encounter one Asari who claims the children receive nothing from their father, we do see some differences in personality and even slight difference in appearance in a few Asari who - for instance - are the children of Krogan and Asari parents.  Part of the personality issue is upbringing, but the minor physical differences are not.  

If Asari reproduction actually works the way Liara tells us it does, then the introduction of new material into the culture is important in preventing it from stagnating.  From what I gather the addition isn't merely or even prominently genetic, but more fundamental - the Asari take something from what it means to be a member of that race and add it to their prodigy.  This allows them to expand and evolve in new directions - which could be very important for a race so long lived. 

Second, "superstitions" can be quite powerful and have a lot of impact on a society and a people.  The inability to accept something greater than one's self can be seen as a form of ignorance just as putting too much stock in the unproven can be.  Religions are a form of superstition, yet they have vast influence on people of every conceivable upbringing.  It is silly to simply sweep an entire belief structure under the rug because one outspoken person disagrees with its legitimacy.  

As to why you see so many pure blood Asari, I think the issue is that it is easier for Asari to fall in love with other Asari - seeing as few races are as long lived as they and those that are, such as the Krogan, share few personal interests which would promote long term relationships.  Thus mating with non Asari might be highly preferable, but any lasting relationship is typically going to have to occur between members of the race ... and after spending a while with someone you love, you are likely to want to make children with them.  

If there was a clapping smiley here, I'd have just given you one for this post.

"If Asari reproduction actually works the way Liara tells us it does,
then the introduction of new material into the culture is important in
preventing it from stagnating.  From what I gather the addition isn't
merely or even prominently genetic, but more fundamental - the Asari
take something from what it means to be a member of that race and add it
to their prodigy.  This allows them to expand and evolve in new
directions - which could be very important for a race so long lived. "
-I like that part... it has weight.


I realize we'll never get the definitive answer from the Mass Effect universe writers/Bioware (for good reason), but if there was any good answer, I think you probably hit the nail on the head... or at least as close as can be taken from what the game does offer in terms of answers on the subject.

Modifié par Ares Caesar, 27 septembre 2010 - 02:31 .

[MisterDyslexo]

Ares Caesar wrote...

Em23 wrote...

Cootie wrote...
Although I do think we can draw parallels between Asari-Asari relationships and gay/bisexual relationships in modern Earth's society, considering the amount of taboo and stigma.

The reasoning behind it, however, is that asari are not very  genetically diverse, so a more fitting earthly parallel would probably be cousins having kids together.

I think thats probably true and more accurate given that its more about reproductive aspects than actual emotional/relationship based aspects. I'm sure no Asari really cares if two Asari love each other, more that they produce pureblood Asari children which do not likely enhance the genetic evolution of the species.

Don't Salarians have reproduction contracts? Because that seems like something an asari couple would do to keep the genetic pool diverse, yet still be together. Seems the equivalent of surrogate pregnancy to me.

[Ares Caesar]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Ares Caesar wrote...

Em23 wrote...

Cootie wrote...
Although I do think we can draw parallels between Asari-Asari relationships and gay/bisexual relationships in modern Earth's society, considering the amount of taboo and stigma.

The reasoning behind it, however, is that asari are not very  genetically diverse, so a more fitting earthly parallel would probably be cousins having kids together.

I think thats probably true and more accurate given that its more about reproductive aspects than actual emotional/relationship based aspects. I'm sure no Asari really cares if two Asari love each other, more that they produce pureblood Asari children which do not likely enhance the genetic evolution of the species.

Don't Salarians have reproduction contracts? Because that seems like something an asari couple would do to keep the genetic pool diverse, yet still be together. Seems the equivalent of surrogate pregnancy to me.

You're right, and thats another interesting aspect I never really thought about either. Good insight. :happy:

[Cootie]

yorkj86 wrote...

I'd like to know how a space-faring species with extremely advanced technology has managed to go all this time without knowing the intricacies of its own genetics.  Maybe Bioware saw the hole it had dug itself in to and threw its arms up in frustration in trying to explain it  :happy:

Space-travel > Genetics.
Priorities. Duh.

[Ares Caesar]

Cootie wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

I'd like to know how a space-faring species with extremely advanced technology has managed to go all this time without knowing the intricacies of its own genetics.  Maybe Bioware saw the hole it had dug itself in to and threw its arms up in frustration in trying to explain it  :happy:

Space-travel > Genetics.
Priorities. Duh.

You also have to account for what CAN be figured out. Still cant truly "cure" the common cold with any sort of magical insta cure (medigel). Yet we can already travel into space, transfer thousands of bits of information in miliseconds, design videogames that make us sit and debate the ability to discover space travel before complete genetic understanding....

so yeah its possible that the Asari still dont truly understand their own genetics. :happy:

[SimonTheFrog]

It's more art than science, really

[PGuard]

I agree with the general topic. I was pretty let down when I saw what my options was for my FemShep in ME2, either go straight or don't get the Paramour achievement >_<. Thankfully I completed it as my MShep first so I could court one of those ladies . Personally I would not choose a Male-Male relationship in ME, but I don't blame the parts of the users that might want that input in the game, either via DLC or as something new in ME3.



But if its in ME3 then it sorta also needs to be proactively done for both MEI+II unless one wants to ditch their former romance for a new one in ME3 or remain single through the first 2 games.

[Wittand25]

I disagree. If it is done for ME3 you dont need to make s/s romances available in ME1 or 2. Making Tali/Garrus possible LIs in ME2 did not require to change their dialog in ME1 and the introduction of a new s/s LI would not require anything to be changed in ME1 or 2. If on the other hand an already existing squadmate (Kaidan) becomes an s/s option Me3 should come with a basic safe-game editor to ensure that everyone who wants to play the romance has acces to it.

I still would love it if a DLC will add the possibility to start an s/s romance in ME2 (ME1 seems extremely unlikely at this point in time) even if the romance would be with a non-squadmember, who only becomes a full squadmember in ME3 and therefore does not grant the paramour achievement in ME2. But if that does not happen I don´t see it as obstacle to including a full s/s-romance in ME3.

[Psychotic Killer Cheeseburger]

i agree with PGuard, especially when miranda was initially intended as a LI for both male and female PC's! In DA:O nobody cared if there were same sex LI's, if you don't like'em just leave'em be and everything's fine, you don't even notice that they exist if you don't want to.



And i really don't see what the trouble would be if you just implemented what was initially there....

[MisterDyslexo]

^ To be honest, I was shocked when you couldn't romance Miranda as FemShep. Out of every possible s/s romance, that one probably makes the most sense to exist. Instead we got Ms. Scale Itch (not that we don't like her, just make her l3git)

[Quething]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Instead we got Ms. Scale Itch (not that we don't like her, just make her l3git)

There are a lot of things I could say about Kelly's pseudo-romance, but I'll just mention this one, since it involves a comparison with Miranda. One of the interesting things about a Miranda romance is that Cerberus is the most central thing in her life, and the majority of Shepards hate Cerberus. But the romance arc gives you opportunites to get to know each other beyond that, and for loyalties and perspectives between Miranda-Shepard-Cerberus to shift. So you can go from cussing her out when you first meet to telling her you trust and even love her over the course of the game, as you prove yourselves to each other.

Kelly may be friendly where Miranda is cold, but she has the same problem for paragons, Sole Survivors and the like; the first thing she ever says to you is that Cerberus' actions are justified and she's proud to be a part of the organization. I have more than 6 distinct Shepards, each with different motivations and worldviews and perspectives on Cerberus, and I've yet to have a single one for whom it makes sense to be anything but curt or, at best, professional with Kelly in that first dialog. Trouble is, unlike Miranda, with Kelly, you get one shot and it's over. If you're mean to her the first time out, it's impossible to ever have Shep come around and get flirty with her. She's about the only character, period, LI or otherwise, of whom this is true in either game, and given her forgiving and compassionate nature, she's the character for whom it makes the absolute least sense.

I kind of wonder what the logic behind that was. I mean, I wonder about the logic behind just about everything about that character, but in the particular context of this being the s/s romance thread and her being the closest thing to s/s romance we get in ME2, I find that aspect worth mentioning: in a franchise where practically the #1 character complaint is accedentally ending up in a romance, Kelly is a romance that it's incredibly easy and in fact reasonably likely to accidentally lock yourself out of.

[ScotGaymer]

Quething wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Instead we got Ms. Scale Itch (not that we don't like her, just make her l3git)

There are a lot of things I could say about Kelly's pseudo-romance, but I'll just mention this one, since it involves a comparison with Miranda. One of the interesting things about a Miranda romance is that Cerberus is the most central thing in her life, and the majority of Shepards hate Cerberus. But the romance arc gives you opportunites to get to know each other beyond that, and for loyalties and perspectives between Miranda-Shepard-Cerberus to shift. So you can go from cussing her out when you first meet to telling her you trust and even love her over the course of the game, as you prove yourselves to each other.

Kelly may be friendly where Miranda is cold, but she has the same problem for paragons, Sole Survivors and the like; the first thing she ever says to you is that Cerberus' actions are justified and she's proud to be a part of the organization. I have more than 6 distinct Shepards, each with different motivations and worldviews and perspectives on Cerberus, and I've yet to have a single one for whom it makes sense to be anything but curt or, at best, professional with Kelly in that first dialog. Trouble is, unlike Miranda, with Kelly, you get one shot and it's over. If you're mean to her the first time out, it's impossible to ever have Shep come around and get flirty with her. She's about the only character, period, LI or otherwise, of whom this is true in either game, and given her forgiving and compassionate nature, she's the character for whom it makes the absolute least sense.

I kind of wonder what the logic behind that was. I mean, I wonder about the logic behind just about everything about that character, but in the particular context of this being the s/s romance thread and her being the closest thing to s/s romance we get in ME2, I find that aspect worth mentioning: in a franchise where practically the #1 character complaint is accedentally ending up in a romance, Kelly is a romance that it's incredibly easy and in fact reasonably likely to accidentally lock yourself out of.

I hate to say it but its cos the ME2 romances are appallingly badly written.

Its easy to fall into them and far too easy to accidentally **** them up lol.  I mean honestly. My Paragon!Sentinel MaleShep had to knock her back - he did it very nicely. Telling her he wanted a friendship. And next time he goes down to see her whats she say?

"F*CK OFF!"

Okay with Jack it sorta makes sense since shes meant to be a total nutter though I dont particularily like how she goes all hostile **** if you been nice to her - I mean earlier she seems to appreciate you just being nice for the sake of being nice, I mean if u'd been a jerk I coulda understood better but when you arent the reasoning skates on thin ice. However ALL the romances are like that. The minute you say "no sorry not interested" they ALL go all hostile **** on you which makes even less sense for Miranda/Jacob never mind Tali/Garrus with whom you have a long standing friendship previously.

[Ares Caesar]

FitScotGaymer wrote...
I hate to say it but its cos the ME2 romances are appallingly badly written.

Its easy to fall into them and far too easy to accidentally **** them up lol.  I mean honestly. My Paragon!Sentinel MaleShep had to knock her back - he did it very nicely. Telling her he wanted a friendship. And next time he goes down to see her whats she say?

"F*CK OFF!"

Okay with Jack it sorta makes sense since shes meant to be a total nutter though I dont particularily like how she goes all hostile **** if you been nice to her - I mean earlier she seems to appreciate you just being nice for the sake of being nice, I mean if u'd been a jerk I coulda understood better but when you arent the reasoning skates on thin ice. However ALL the romances are like that. The minute you say "no sorry not interested" they ALL go all hostile **** on you which makes even less sense for Miranda/Jacob never mind Tali/Garrus with whom you have a long standing friendship previously.

I do agree too much ends as soon as a love interest is chosen. Its as if you dont choose them, they dont even want to be friends...

Its why I'm writing an article to support INDIVIDUAL paragon/renegade scores/perspectives for each squadmate. The fact that A) global scores affect EVERYONE is ridiculous and You are forced into being entirely nice or mean to everyone, and even if you've been entirely nice to someone they will only appreciate it up until you've made your decision on love interests, after that they have better things to do apparently than be friends.