9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Babli]

meh..mistake...sry

Modifié par Babli, 05 octobre 2010 - 07:56 .

[ElitePinecone]

Fancando wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

You ever wonder why they pulled the lesbian option away from Ashley? It's been hinted that she was supposed to be a male/female love interest. Do you think Liara is the reason they pulled it or that they were worried about the backlash?

The Asari are a one gender  female species that make Femshep gay without Femshep being gay in human terms, they are the politically correct way to have a lesbian in the game, a way to circumvent the censors by saying that aliens don't count as "gay" characters.

I don't entirely buy this line of argument, although I see where you're coming from.

To my mind, Bioware didn't start planning Mass Effect's species and universe with romances in mind - in fact, romances were probably one of the last gameplay features to be confirmed in the original game, if the hasty and incomplete cutting of the mShep/Kaidan and femShep/Ashley romances are any guide. 

I would suggest that the asari were created (along with turians, salarians, hanar, etc) because they're a very unique and 'alien' form of alien life. Their attractiveness to humans (both males and females) is just as much part of this uniqueness as their biotics, mind-melding abilities and lifespan - or their monogenderism/genderless status (without opening this debate again). I agree that their resemblance to humans isn't a coincidence, but a game full of 'realistic' aliens (whatever they happen to be) would probably scare more people than it would entertain.  

With this in mind, I don't think the first thought on the minds of whoever created the asari were "Let's make a humanoid hawt blue female-alien-species so we can get lesbians in our game!!1". Of course, it might've been - but I'd rather give them more credit than that, and presume that it was because a monogendered biotic culture with no gender roles is actually quite interesting.

I could be wrong, and the asari could be just a marketing ploy to circumvent censors, show female romances and attract the teenage boy demographic (who presumably play for 30+ hours as a woman...). But I'd like to hope I'm not, and they were included for somewhat less cynical reasons. 

[Fancando]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Fancando wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

You ever wonder why they pulled the lesbian option away from Ashley? It's been hinted that she was supposed to be a male/female love interest. Do you think Liara is the reason they pulled it or that they were worried about the backlash?

The Asari are a one gender  female species that make Femshep gay without Femshep being gay in human terms, they are the politically correct way to have a lesbian in the game, a way to circumvent the censors by saying that aliens don't count as "gay" characters.

I don't entirely buy this line of argument, although I see where you're coming from.

To my mind, Bioware didn't start planning Mass Effect's species and universe with romances in mind - in fact, romances were probably one of the last gameplay features to be confirmed in the original game, if the hasty and incomplete cutting of the mShep/Kaidan and femShep/Ashley romances are any guide. 

I would suggest that the asari were created (along with turians, salarians, hanar, etc) because they're a very unique and 'alien' form of alien life. Their attractiveness to humans (both males and females) is just as much part of this uniqueness as their biotics, mind-melding abilities and lifespan - or their monogenderism/genderless status (without opening this debate again). I agree that their resemblance to humans isn't a coincidence, but a game full of 'realistic' aliens (whatever they happen to be) would probably scare more people than it would entertain.  

With this in mind, I don't think the first thought on the minds of whoever created the asari were "Let's make a humanoid hawt blue female-alien-species so we can get lesbians in our game!!1". Of course, it might've been - but I'd rather give them more credit than that, and presume that it was because a monogendered biotic culture with no gender roles is actually quite interesting.

I could be wrong, and the asari could be just a marketing ploy to circumvent censors, show female romances and attract the teenage boy demographic (who presumably play for 30+ hours as a woman...). But I'd like to hope I'm not, and they were included for somewhat less cynical reasons. 

I never doubted the intentions of the makers of the game to make interesting aliens, I just said that the Asari are convieniently filling the gap of the cut Ash/Femshep romance in ME1 and they offer a similar alternative on ME2.
I never stated that Bioware created this most interesting species, that is so much more than a way to put a lesbian romance in the game, as a way of reintroducing the diversity they lost for some reason or other but they also serve that role.
I want  gay human and alien characters in ME3 because the choice should exist in an RPG where there should be as much diversity as posible in everything.

Modifié par Fancando, 05 octobre 2010 - 09:21 .

[shootist70]

ElitePinecone wrote...


With this in mind, I don't think the first thought on the minds of whoever created the asari were "Let's make a humanoid hawt blue female-alien-species so we can get lesbians in our game!!1". Of course, it might've been - but I'd rather give them more credit than that, and presume that it was because a monogendered biotic culture with no gender roles is actually quite interesting.

Of course they did. It's an old and well known trope, as old as the ancient Greek Amazon myth. The 'we're an all female race of hot chicks that needs your sperm to survive', but with the added twist of 'it's not just sperm we need, but DNA, and we can get this from your females in hot lesbo sex scenes that you guys get to watch.'

[Fancando]

shootist70 wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...


With this in mind, I don't think the first thought on the minds of whoever created the asari were "Let's make a humanoid hawt blue female-alien-species so we can get lesbians in our game!!1". Of course, it might've been - but I'd rather give them more credit than that, and presume that it was because a monogendered biotic culture with no gender roles is actually quite interesting.

Of course they did. It's an old and well known trope, as old as the ancient Greek Amazon myth. The 'we're an all female race of hot chicks that needs your sperm to survive', but with the added twist of 'it's not just sperm we need, but DNA, and we can get this from your females in hot lesbo sex scenes that you guys get to watch.'

The Liara/Femshep love scene from ME1 is awesome! and there is emotion there too, not just sex.
Bioware gave me a blackscreen in ME2, so annoying.
But the Asari are a very well written alien race, Bioware put the extra effort to make them that first and later everything else, everything hot else that is.

[shootist70]

Fancando wrote...

shootist70 wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...


With this in mind, I don't think the first thought on the minds of whoever created the asari were "Let's make a humanoid hawt blue female-alien-species so we can get lesbians in our game!!1". Of course, it might've been - but I'd rather give them more credit than that, and presume that it was because a monogendered biotic culture with no gender roles is actually quite interesting.

Of course they did. It's an old and well known trope, as old as the ancient Greek Amazon myth. The 'we're an all female race of hot chicks that needs your sperm to survive', but with the added twist of 'it's not just sperm we need, but DNA, and we can get this from your females in hot lesbo sex scenes that you guys get to watch.'

The Liara/Femshep love scene from ME1 is awesome! and there is emotion there too, not just sex.
Bioware gave me a blackscreen in ME2, so annoying.
But the Asari are a very well written alien race, Bioware put the extra effort to make them that first and later everything else, everything hot else that is.

Don't get me wrong, using a trope isn't an automatic sin as some folks seem to think. It's fine as long as you put your own stamp and spin on it. Did Bioware do that with the Asari? Meh, I'm not convinced, tbh. Having said that I do kinda like them, though.

Modifié par shootist70, 05 octobre 2010 - 09:16 .

[Fancando]

^Still, The Asari are just awesome and worth the time spent in romancing them, that is the point.

[ElitePinecone]

Fancando wrote...

*snip*

I never doubted the intentions of the makers of the game to make interesting aliens, I just said that the Asari are convieniently filling the gap of the cut Ash/Femshep romance in ME1 and they offer a similar alternative on ME2.
I never stated that Bioware created this most interesting species, that is so much more than a way to put a lesbian romance in the game, as a way of reintroducing the diversity they lost for some reason or other but they also serve that role.
I want  gay human nad alien characters in ME3 because the choice should exist in an RPG where there should be as much diversity as posible in everything.

Right. I can see how the asari do offer a convenient quasi-lesbian romance. I suppose that without understanding the motives of the design team we'll never really know, and certainly I acknowledge that (conveniently or otherwise) having a monogendered but obviously 'female-inspired' alien species may deflect some criticism of female romances in both games. I do wonder though, would having a male-inspired 'monogender' species (assuming hypothetically that they can reproduce with each other, and just have weird anatomy) provide the same veneer of justification to male-male romances? I'd tend to think not - the potential romance between male-inspired aliens and male humans would be far more offensive to some than a female-inspired alien and a female human. Just an interesting thought.

shootist70 wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...
With this in mind, I don't think the first thought on the minds of whoever created the asari were "Let's make a humanoid hawt blue female-alien-species so we can get lesbians in our game!!1". Of course, it might've been - but I'd rather give them more credit than that, and presume that it was because a monogendered biotic culture with no gender roles is actually quite interesting.

Of course they did. It's an old and well known trope, as old as the ancient Greek Amazon myth. The 'we're an all female race of hot chicks that needs your sperm to survive', but with the added twist of 'it's not just sperm we need, but DNA, and we can get this from your females in hot lesbo sex scenes that you guys get to watch.' 

Hmmm. That is one conclusion you can draw, I suppose. I always interpreted the "we need your DNA" vibe as more of a promotion of inter-species understanding and universality of life, rather than a show of weakness or insularity ('we need aliens to come help us/impregnate us!'). From the extremely limited knowledge we have about asari culture, partnerships with 'aliens' are not so much about survival as about fostering ties between the galaxy for some quasi-religious reasons. And there's some great messages there about the transcendence of love, blah blah blah. 

I guess the "omg hawt lesbians" argument works just as well though, from a marketing perspective

[shootist70]

Been a long while since I watched Star Trek, so I may have got the details wrong, but I seem to remember an episode of TNG where Ryker falls in love with a monogendered alien who was far more obviously androgenous in appearance.



That was a decent treatment of it, but as you say, it doesn't sell as well as hawt lesbians.

[Fancando]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Fancando wrote...

*snip*

I never doubted the intentions of the makers of the game to make interesting aliens, I just said that the Asari are convieniently filling the gap of the cut Ash/Femshep romance in ME1 and they offer a similar alternative on ME2.
I never stated that Bioware created this most interesting species, that is so much more than a way to put a lesbian romance in the game, as a way of reintroducing the diversity they lost for some reason or other but they also serve that role.
I want  gay human nad alien characters in ME3 because the choice should exist in an RPG where there should be as much diversity as posible in everything.

Right. I can see how the asari do offer a convenient quasi-lesbian romance. I suppose that without understanding the motives of the design team we'll never really know, and certainly I acknowledge that (conveniently or otherwise) having a monogendered but obviously 'female-inspired' alien species may deflect some criticism of female romances in both games. I do wonder though, would having a male-inspired 'monogender' species (assuming hypothetically that they can reproduce with each other, and just have weird anatomy) provide the same veneer of justification to male-male romances? I'd tend to think not - the potential romance between male-inspired aliens and male humans would be far more offensive to some than a female-inspired alien and a female human. Just an interesting thought.


I guess the "omg hawt lesbians" argument works just as well though, from a marketing perspective

Male shep and a male looking Asari like species? In an open sci-fi RPG, that ought to be a no-brainer, but they barely got away with the Asari, I can't even imagine the hoops marketing would have to jump though to pitch, createnad use a concept like that.

Modifié par Fancando, 05 octobre 2010 - 09:27 .

[Fancando]

shootist70 wrote...

Been a long while since I watched Star Trek, so I may have got the details wrong, but I seem to remember an episode of TNG where Ryker falls in love with a monogendered alien who was far more obviously androgenous in appearance.

That was a decent treatment of it, but as you say, it doesn't sell as well as hawt lesbians.

And later he romanced Deanna Troy to keep the character away from any gay or bi possibilities,as they did with Dax in deep space nine when after a sexually daring episode she romanced Worf to become as straight as possible.

Modifié par Fancando, 05 octobre 2010 - 09:34 .

[shootist70]

Fancando wrote...

shootist70 wrote...

Been a long while since I watched Star Trek, so I may have got the details wrong, but I seem to remember an episode of TNG where Ryker falls in love with a monogendered alien who was far more obviously androgenous in appearance.

That was a decent treatment of it, but as you say, it doesn't sell as well as hawt lesbians.

And later he romanced Deanna Troy to keep the character away from any gay or bi possibilities,as they did with Dax in deep space nine when after a sexually daring episode she romanced Worf to become as straight as possible.

Really? Still, it was a decent episode.

[Fancando]

shootist70 wrote...

Fancando wrote...

shootist70 wrote...

Been a long while since I watched Star Trek, so I may have got the details wrong, but I seem to remember an episode of TNG where Ryker falls in love with a monogendered alien who was far more obviously androgenous in appearance.

That was a decent treatment of it, but as you say, it doesn't sell as well as hawt lesbians.

And later he romanced Deanna Troy to keep the character away from any gay or bi possibilities,as they did with Dax in deep space nine when after a sexually daring episode she romanced Worf to become as straight as possible.

Really? Still, it was a decent episode.

That it was.
The DS9 episode was a cop-out episode about social conformity STILL existing in the far future, the ending was very conservative for Star Trek.

Modifié par Fancando, 05 octobre 2010 - 09:49 .

[Wittand25]

Star Treck is off topic, but I think that the original creator was in favor of including s/s content but other than the mentioned examples and the mirror universe in DS9 where all the men did not shave and all the women were bisexual and evil (maybe because the men did not shave and the women got sick of beard rash), the universe is pretty lacking in that regard.



Back to the topic of Asari. We already have confirmation that the Asari were created and planned as space babes. In ME1 I think they always just wanted to have Liara as LI for both Sheppard’s. Ash/Kaidan I am unsure if they avoided it for controversy or so that not every LI on board would be bisexual. Considering the amount of possible LIs in ME2 (and the inclusion of Kelly) however, there is little excuse for not adding at least one s/s option per gender.

On the topic of controversy: Bioware is now a part of EA, a company that hired fake protesters when no real protesters showed up. I doubt that they would shrink away from any controversy considering that is the way to get mentions in not gaming centered media and I am 100% sure that ME1 benefitted from the FOX incident.

[Fancando]

Wittand25 wrote...

Star Treck is off topic, but I think that the original creator was in favor of including s/s content but other than the mentioned examples and the mirror universe in DS9 where all the men did not shave and all the women were bisexual and evil (maybe because the men did not shave and the women got sick of beard rash), the universe is pretty lacking in that regard.

Back to the topic of Asari. We already have confirmation that the Asari were created and planned as space babes. In ME1 I think they always just wanted to have Liara as LI for both Sheppard’s. Ash/Kaidan I am unsure if they avoided it for controversy or so that not every LI on board would be bisexual. Considering the amount of possible LIs in ME2 (and the inclusion of Kelly) however, there is little excuse for not adding at least one s/s option per gender.
On the topic of controversy: Bioware is now a part of EA, a company that hired fake protesters when no real protesters showed up. I doubt that they would shrink away from any controversy considering that is the way to get mentions in not gaming centered media and I am 100% sure that ME1 benefitted from the FOX incident.

Sorry for going of topic there.
And of course EA took advantage of the FOX reaction to something that they would have ignored completely if it hadn't been told to them by somebody for some reason, the game won from the fuss by selling more copies and EA made more money.
And DS9's Mirror Kira, wow.......she was such fun.

[elearon1]

On the topic of that Star Trek episode, I wish they had made the Asari a more androgynous race - rather than blue skinned space babes. Not that I have a problem with the later - far from it - but I would not have made them the mono sexed species; thus I'd have left more room for investigating the intricacies and social commentary of a single sexed race. (and made the issue of romancing one a little more about personality vs wanting to shag the sexy chick that swings both ways)

[elearon1]

I would not have made the big breasted sex objects a single sexed species - I would have been entirely behind the existence of a single sexed species, however. (something that looked more androgynous, as I said) Sorry if that was unclear.



On the topic of Asari swinging both ways (though I realize that is technically inaccurate, as in their culture there are no two ways about it ::chuckles, bad joke:: ) I think it would also be interesting if the Asari demonstrated more of a tendency toward mating with females of those species which share similar physical designs. (breasts, wider hips, softer skin, etc) These would have been, for a vast portion of their evolution, the standards of beauty for their species, so it would make sense that many would look for similar features in other species.

[elearon1]

Not that there is anything wrong with the "hot blue alien lady" phenomenon ... who doesn't find twi'leks sexy?

[Fancando]

elearon1 wrote...

Not that there is anything wrong with the "hot blue alien lady" phenomenon ... who doesn't find twi'leks sexy?

I am more of a fan or red Twi'leks myself.
And The Asari are awesome.
But they should take features from the "father" species  like variation of blue and other small or great physical details,  hair from humans, pointier head tendrils from Turians, size from Krogans, a more slender physique from Salarians and so on....
But logically, the Asari genome can't be so dominant as to be strtonger than every feature of the "Father" species.

Modifié par Fancando, 07 octobre 2010 - 07:53 .

[ElitePinecone]

yorkj86 wrote...

elearon1 wrote...

I would not have made the big breasted sex objects a single sexed species - I would have been entirely behind the existence of a single sexed species, however. (something that looked more androgynous, as I said) Sorry if that was unclear.

On the topic of Asari swinging both ways (though I realize that is technically inaccurate, as in their culture there are no two ways about it ::chuckles, bad joke:: ) I think it would also be interesting if the Asari demonstrated more of a tendency toward mating with females of those species which share similar physical designs. (breasts, wider hips, softer skin, etc) These would have been, for a vast portion of their evolution, the standards of beauty for their species, so it would make sense that many would look for similar features in other species.

Yes, it would make more sense that naturally, biologically, evolutionarily, they would prefer human females over human males, for example, but since they're "enlightened", culturally, by way of their unique biology, exotic features make dissimilar individuals desirable.

The grumpuses will just claim that the above is just more pandering to the asari as the "hot blue alien lady" sci-fi phenomenon.

This is an interesting point, actually. I hadn't considered that a monogendered/genderless race can't (by definition) be defined using the spectrum of human sexuality. I suppose there are individual preferences among the asari, and given that mating isn't necessarily physical they may have other criteria for 'attractiveness' (for example, perhaps exotic genetic differences or life experiences are considered beneficial to an asari mate - 'dissimilar individuals'). 

It would be interesting to speculate, if we had more information, on how human ideas of romance and sexuality have been affected in the intervening ~180 years of the MEverse..

[Siansonea]

Fancando wrote...

elearon1 wrote...

Not that there is anything wrong with the "hot blue alien lady" phenomenon ... who doesn't find twi'leks sexy?

I am more of a fan or red Twi'leks myself.
And The Asari are awesome.
But they should take features from the "father" species  like variation of blue and other small or great physical details,  hair from humans, pointier head tendrils from Turians, size from Krogans, a more slender physique from Salarians and so on....
But logically, the Asari genome can't be so dominant as to be strtonger than every feature of the "Father" species.

The asari don't actually get genes from the father species. The melding process simply helps them randomize a pure asari genome. Possibly the father species might influence the randomization process to some extent, but it wouldn't introduce non-asari traits like hair and such.

[Fancando]

Siansonea II wrote...

Fancando wrote...

elearon1 wrote...

Not that there is anything wrong with the "hot blue alien lady" phenomenon ... who doesn't find twi'leks sexy?

I am more of a fan or red Twi'leks myself.
And The Asari are awesome.
But they should take features from the "father" species  like variation of blue and other small or great physical details,  hair from humans, pointier head tendrils from Turians, size from Krogans, a more slender physique from Salarians and so on....
But logically, the Asari genome can't be so dominant as to be strtonger than every feature of the "Father" species.

The asari don't actually get genes from the father species. The melding process simply helps them randomize a pure asari genome. Possibly the father species might influence the randomization process to some extent, but it wouldn't introduce non-asari traits like hair and such.

But how can they be divided into purebloods and non purebloods if the "father" species  gives so little, something genetic must pass I mean?

Modifié par Fancando, 07 octobre 2010 - 06:27 .

[Siansonea]

Fancando wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Fancando wrote...

elearon1 wrote...

Not that there is anything wrong with the "hot blue alien lady" phenomenon ... who doesn't find twi'leks sexy?

I am more of a fan or red Twi'leks myself.
And The Asari are awesome.
But they should take features from the "father" species  like variation of blue and other small or great physical details,  hair from humans, pointier head tendrils from Turians, size from Krogans, a more slender physique from Salarians and so on....
But logically, the Asari genome can't be so dominant as to be strtonger than every feature of the "Father" species.

The asari don't actually get genes from the father species. The melding process simply helps them randomize a pure asari genome. Possibly the father species might influence the randomization process to some extent, but it wouldn't introduce non-asari traits like hair and such.

But how can they be divided into purebloods and non purebloods if the "father" species  gives so little, something genetic must pass I mean?

Probably it is because the father's species does influence the randomization process in a tangible way. Not in such a way that has been definitively quantified, but nonetheless the fact that ardat-yakshi can only be the offspring of a pureblood mother is an indicator that the father's species, and perhaps specific genome, plays a role in the daughter asari's genome.

But the discussion of asari reproduction is rather tangential to the discussion. Asari are female, because they give birth to baby asari. They are not hermaphroditic, their reproduction process simply obviates the need for an entire subtype to exist solely to fertilize the eggs of the base type. When you think about it, a male-female binary is rather ineffecient from a biological standpoint. It is much more efficient to have every member of the species capable of reproducing itself directly, and contribute to the reproduction of other individuals.

On topic, the asari technicalities are a bit of a copout, and it would be much better, in my opinion, if same-sex content was implemented with a HUMAN partner.