9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Bookman230]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Did Kotor, Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 have S/S romances?

KOTOR had Juhani and I've never played Baldur's Gate.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Hmm, so no M/M romance in KOTOR



I have not gotten far enough in either BG game to know.



Seems like the main benchmark would be Jade Empire it seems, but that has the problem of the threesome.

[sw33ts]

Syledir wrote...

sw33ts wrote...

Have any of you guys read the Suggestion section? (3rd post)

I know color text was recommended but what about 3 where basically you choose a crush and if you choose no crush then no one of the same sex hits on you...for those of you a bit more skittish with the whole idea of a "bro" hitting on you.

The way I see it with your suggestion of the "crush system", I hope I didn't get it the wrong way, is that you have to decide from the very beginning which character you want to romance. Let's say someone plays Mass Effect 2 for the first time and hasn't played Mass Effect 1 at all. He chooses Jack as a crush, but during the game he realizes that he likes Miranda a lot more. In that case he would have to start the game from the very beginning. Or he chooses Ashley. That's even worse because all he will get ar 3 minutes of dialogue and that's that.

On the other hand, if you could choose your crush during the game it could work, but that's pretty much the same as the "picture frame system" which sounds diffcult to implement in the game. That and it makes it impossible to change your mind or watch another scene like in Mass Effect 1 when Kaiden and Liara both believe that you are in love with one of them.

The suggestion with Mordin is unnecessary if BioWare makes same sex romance possible for Mass Effect 3. Why the extra work? And the suggestion with the 2 extra NPCs which both should be ****** or at least bisexuall sounds interesting but is so much more work compared to simply remove the gender check and reimplement bisuexuall squad members. 

So no gender check and bisexuall squad members sounds like the best and cheapest solution, but because a few people feel uncomfortable with homosexuality coloured texts (indicating romance dialogue) and/or a "sexual preference check" during character creation makes it save enough for them to enjoy game without accidentally triggering a romance dialogue they didn't want. And it gives us the freedom to play the game like we want.

No, you misunderstood.  My whole thing basically is if you're a gay male and you want someone of the same sex to hit on you basically you can choose you have a crush on ANY male characters and now they're all open for you that means all of them of which are open for femShep...soooooooooo Jacob and Thane (or maybe just Jacob if BW makes it that way), with possibly whomever you choose might make the first move if bioware so chooses to make it like that, which I wouldn't mind.  I sort of went into half ass detail in the last 2 sentences.  Sorry I wasn't clearer.

Although the whole no gender check thing would be great, I don't think the would cover the bases with the  whole OMG Garrus hit on me ewww...but he's my broooo...aspect.

Modifié par sw33ts, 16 juin 2010 - 08:26 .

[Syledir]

Zontral wrote...

You've stated that you want to hear from "both sides of the fence", so I'll present my feelings on this.

I agree entirely with Ray Mazuka's article that was posted in the opening posts on this topic.  In ME, the story is more of playing out a narrative from a 3rd person point of view, where the character is already created and has their personality somewhat defined, as opposed to creating an entirely new and unique character with a new personality, such as in DA.  I support the view that if you stick with a pre-defined character, you can create a much deeper personality for that character, and to me, this is much better than the open-ended system.  Since in dialogues you're selecting topics as opposed to statements, you sometimes don't really know what's going to be said, and so you are indeed following a more pre-defined path.

The base concept of 3rd person vs 1st person narrative is very different, so I do not see it as a lack of consistency in that some of the games are lacking same-sex relationships, since the story is being told in a very different way in both systems.  It isn't fair to look at different games and assume that they were created in the same way and then complain that one is missing something.  That's like going to a vineyard that grows both seeded and seedless grapes, eating one of each, and then complaining to the owner that the grapes don't taste the same, despite both being grapes... it doesn't make any sense!

As for the female relationship with Liara, we should not be applying the definition of a human female to non-humans (i.e. physical appearance, voice, actions, etc), especially for those species that can be asexual.  This doesn't make any sense either!  Bioware tried to break away from the idea that all aliens are very human-like, and this can be seen in how various species act.  I VERY much appreciate their efforts to do this, and I don't feel that we should be taking a step back towards the view that despite looking different, aliens are just human.


I've included the Ray Mazuka article below for those that want to read it, and because I feel that it sums up a lot of my feelings on this issue.

sw33ts wrote...

Ray Mazuka said:
Here's how the games are different: Dragon Age is a first person narrative, where you're taking on an origin and a role, and you are that character at a fundamental level. It's fundamentally about defining your character, including those kinds of concepts. In Mass Effect it's more a third person narrative, where you have a pre-defined character who is who he is, or she is. But it's not a wide-open choice matrix. It's more choice on a tactical level with a pre-defined character. So they're different types of narratives, and that's intentional.

We're not saying that one approach is better than the other. In our previous games, as we did in Jade Empire, as we did in KOTOR, as we did in Baldur's Gate, and many games before and in the future, we enable those kinds of choices, whereas in Mass Effect it's more about Shepard as a defined character with certain approaches and worldviews, and that's just who he or she is. So we constrain the choice set somewhat, but enable more tactical choices and enable a deeper, richer personality, because it's more focused around defining one character, it's not as wide open. But that's by choice.

It's first person versus third person narrative, and the types of choices you get to make within that are related to that, whether you've got a pre-defined character or a wide-open character. Some of our games have been wide open, and some have been more constrained, and we'll probably continue both kinds of character development in the future.
-From: http://xbox360.ign.c.../1066954p2.html

The Grey Warden is pre-defined aswell. Just like Shepard you have to choose your backround first. Actually Shepard has 9 possible backrounds while the Warden only has 6. Just like Shepard you have to choose your specialization. Shepard has 6 possible types while the Warden has only 3. Both can't change their surname. Both have pre-defined first names. And just like Shepard the Warden has a pre-defined look, which can be seen in the trailers. Both follow a pre-defined path. Shepard has to defeat the Reapers and the Warden has to defeat the Dark Spawn. Neither can join forces with their evil enemy and seize control over the world, for example. The only difference I can see is a different dialogue system.

It's not like we expect Mass Effect to be exactly the same like Dragon Age. If that would be the case, we would have a lot more issues like different combat systems or different settings for example. But BioWare seemed to go in a certain direction. KotoR: Lesbian Romance was possible, a platonic one but there it is. Jade Empire: Lesbian and Gay Romance was possible, the romantic sequence between same sex characters could not be seen. BioWare claimed that they didn't have enough time to finish the sequence. Mass Effect: Lesbian Romance was possible, and the romantic scene between same sex characters could be seen. Dragon Age: Lesbian and Gay Romance was possible, romantic scene between same sex charachters could be seen. Mass Effect 2: Nothing! You don't have to be a genius to tell when exactly they have changed their direction.

Asari: The never ending story. They are not human. Agreed. But they are female, BioWare even states Asari as female themselves. And the Asari call themselves women in the game. They are not human women, but they are close enough. And even if not, no homosexuall male would be interested in an Asari. Too many similarities between them and a human woman. A lesbian however wouldn't have so much of a problem.

Still, let's just pretend I would agree with Mr. Mazuka, the argument is still there. Players who want heterosexuall romance have never had more exclusive content than in this game while the players who want homosexuall romance have never been more excluded. If same sex romance would have been included and Mr. Mazuka would have made the same comment it wouldn't make more or less sense to anyone.

[HK-90210]

Until a short while ago, I was totally in favor of having a patch made that would make all romance options available to either MaleSheps or FemSheps, as desired. But then, I ran into a dialogue option that shifted my thinking a little bit.
Jack, when pursued by a FemShep, says something to the effect of "I don't run with the all girls club. Thanks for the interest, but I don't want to play."- that's a very solid rejection by Jack. It says that she, as her own character, is heterosexual(Or at least requires one guy to be in on the action)

This dialogue made me realize that changing the game code to make romance options available to either gender is in fact changing the NPCs to fit the desires of the Player. This is simply wish-fullfillment, not honest role-playing.

Just like there are people that are comfortable with(and in many cases prefer) sexual relations with their own gender, there is also a solid portion of people that do not. I think that by what romance options are available in both ME games, we can assume that all romanceable characters(with the exceptions of Liara and Kelly) identify themselves as heterosexual.

It's disproportionate, considering how many gay/lesbian people I know personally. But that is how the characters were written by the people that created them in the first place. That's the decision that the writers at Bioware have made, and that's the way it should stay(At least in the official form of the game). It doesn't mean that MaleShep or FemShep can't be gay. It just means they haven't run into the right guy/girl yet.

I do, however, think it was an obvious inconsistency that Bioware did not include a gay Maleshep romance. If you're going to include lesbian relationships(don't give me the 'Liara is asexual' talk. She looks female!), you should include at least one option for the guys.

So I think that Bioware should include, somewhere in ME3, an option for gay MaleSheps to have a proper romance. But as far as a same sex romance patch for the current games goes, I think that is something Bioware should feel no obligation to release, because the characters have been written a certain way, and that shouldn't be changed.

In the meantime, I guess I will just have to resort to Zevran to get my gay man fix(I don't see why people have a problem with him. He's my personal favorite romance option, warden gender regardless.).

Modifié par CastonFolarus, 16 juin 2010 - 08:31 .

[Wittand25]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Did Kotor, Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 have S/S romances?

Kotor had Juhani (not a real romance like Kelly in ME2), BG1 did not have any romance and BG2 had if I remember correctly just one male who would have (implied) sex with another male character ( all the other males turned a male character down).
But JE had s/s romance for both genders, ME1 had it atleast for female Sheppards and DA  had actual romance options and non-romantic possible sexual encounters (both m/m and f/f).
So the ME franchise (and Me2 even more than ME1) is a step back from the other recent Bioware rpgs regarding s/s contnet.

Modifié par Wittand25, 16 juin 2010 - 09:17 .

[Syledir]

CastonFolarus wrote...

Until a short while ago, I was totally in favor of having a patch made that would make all romance options available to either MaleSheps or FemSheps, as desired. But then, I ran into a dialogue option that shifted my thinking a little bit.
Jack, when pursued by a FemShep, says something to the effect of "I don't run with the all girls club. Thanks for the interest, but I don't want to play."- that's a very solid rejection by Jack. It says that she, as her own character, is heterosexual(Or at least requires one guy to be in on the action)

This dialogue made me realize that changing the game code to make romance options available to either gender is in fact changing the NPCs to fit the desires of the Player. This is simply wish-fullfillment, not honest role-playing.

Just like there are people that are comfortable with(and in many cases prefer) sexual relations with their own gender, there is also a solid portion of people that do not. I think that by what romance options are available in both ME games, we can assume that all romanceable characters(with the exceptions of Liara and Kelly) identify themselves as heterosexual.

It's disproportionate, considering how many gay/lesbian people I know personally. But that is how the characters were written by the people that created them in the first place. That's the decision that the writers at Bioware have made, and that's the way it should stay(At least in the official form of the game). It doesn't mean that MaleShep or FemShep can't be gay. It just means they haven't run into the right guy/girl yet.

I do, however, think it was an obvious inconsistency that Bioware did not include a gay Maleshep romance. If you're going to include lesbian relationships(don't give me the 'Liara is asexual' talk. She looks female!), you should include at least one option for the guys.

So I think that Bioware should include, somewhere in ME3, an option for gay MaleSheps to have a proper romance. But as far as a same sex romance patch for the current games goes, I think that is something Bioware should feel no obligation to release, because the characters have been written a certain way, and that shouldn't be changed.

In the meantime, I guess I will just have to resort to Zevran to get my gay man fix(I don't see why people have a problem with him. He's my personal favorite romance option, warden gender regardless.).

Shifted your thinking a bit. I would rather say it turned upside down. 

Just because Jack said, that she isn't interested, doesn't mean that everyone else isn't either. Talis body language for example screams sexual attraction (happens during the lets-link-suits-talk).

Many characters said things, that turned out to be wrong. Wrex for example said that he gave up on a lost cause (his people). Well, it didn't look much like giving up in Mass Effect 2 now, did it.

And Jack? Jack said, she wouldn't want to be part of Shepards happy little boy-scout-team, said that she would kill Miranda, if she doesn't stay away. Yet here she is, following every order Shepard gives her, while she cooperates with Miranda without a problem.

Come to think of it, the way how Jack and Miranda interact with each other, the emotion and chemistry... It has been done hundreds of times before in TV or movies and is called lovers in denial. It's a classic and doesn't really enforce Jacks claim.

But beggars can't be choosers right? We should be happy with every bone BioWare throws at us.

[sw33ts]

A Miri/Jack wink at the end of ME3 would be awesome lol.

As for Jack's comment I wanted to smack her upside her head when she said that after all that leading on...same with Tali.

And I would just like to point out to the guy who said BW made it so that that other aliens are different from humans in their actions and such. And no they're not...they're all pretty human in their interactions with HUMANS being the most diverse as I believe Samara put it. (She was the one would was like in a group of humans 1 can be smart 1 can be dumb and 1 can be agressive vs a group of Krogan where they're all just aggressive.)

I mean we've yet to meet very many female-like species but the ones we have met are pretty feminine acting. What I'm getting at is we didn't randomly see a female quarian and go...oh...that's a male quarian? No because they're still very hand motion orient when it comes to the females and they have feminine voices and uh..hips. lol. If you compare Kal's hips to Tali's I believe they're smaller, but it's been awhile...since i've played the game.

The only alien type that I can think of where it's like what is that...is a hanar...and I don't plan on romancing a hanar...although that'd be...interesting...to say the least.

Asexual Monogendered does not mean they can't act as a specific gender it just means they have one gender and based on (i.e. physical appearance, voice, actions, etc).  Liara even stated int eh game that she would probably taken on the female role in a human relationship. 

Maybe it's just me but I've always viewed the aliens in ME as sort of an evolution of human behavior.

Turian - They seem a bit even in the gender rights but war oriented - 90s/present
Asari - women are sex objects - covers all aspects of time - 70s/80s
Krogan - women stay home/men fight- 50s/60s
Turians - Humans with fishbowls on their heads
Humans - well humans are humans are humans

So basically my point is...even though they're alien they're really not all that alien.  Soo labeling them as we would ourseleves doesn't really take anything away from them.

I can't list anyone else because we don't know how the other half acts

Modifié par sw33ts, 16 juin 2010 - 10:10 .

[ElitePinecone]

CastonFolarus wrote...

 I think that by what romance options are available in both ME games, we can assume that all romanceable characters(with the exceptions of Liara and Kelly) identify themselves as heterosexual.

We don't necessarily need to assume. Have a look at some of the videos posted on the first page of this thread. You'll see that Kaidan, Ashley, Thane and Tali were all previously romance options for both genders, before they were cut. In Kaidan's case at least (I haven't seen the other videos in great detail), his romance dialogue with male Shepard is fully recorded - most of the lines are unique and different to those of FemShep's. It can be argued, obviously, that since Kaidan didn't end up being a romance option for male Shepards that he should be classed as heretosexual. I'd rather argue that since Bioware obviously intended to originally have him as a male romance option, it wouldn't be 'breaking the character' to restore this option for Kaidan. 

[The Uncanny]

CastonFolarus wrote...
It's disproportionate, considering how many gay/lesbian people I know personally. But that is how the characters were written by the people that created them in the first place. That's the decision that the writers at Bioware have made, and that's the way it should stay(At least in the official form of the game). It doesn't mean that MaleShep or FemShep can't be gay. It just means they haven't run into the right guy/girl yet.

I don't have a problem with this per se. I'm not happy with it, but I can see the logic. But, if that is the case, then for purely roleplaying purposes I want my FShep to be able to say to Jack, 'How about you and I go up to my cabin for some fun?' or be able to ask Miranda if I can check on the buoyancy of her forward tanks. All I ask is for the opportunity to get properly shot down rather than have to endure wishy-washy cop outs like that intentionally vague 'girls club' line.

That way I'm roleplaying my Shepard the way I want to. Getting told 'not interested' may not be what I want to hear but at least it covers the issue instead of cowering from it.

[LiquidGrape]

[Purge]

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 18 juillet 2010 - 12:42 .

[Bookman230]

LiquidGrape wrote...

The Uncanny wrote...

I don't have a problem with this per se. I'm not happy with it, but I can see the logic. But, if that is the case, then for purely roleplaying purposes I want my FShep to be able to say to Jack, 'How about you and I go up to my cabin for some fun?' or be able to ask Miranda if I can check on the buoyancy of her forward tanks. All I ask is for the opportunity to get properly shot down rather than have to endure wishy-washy cop outs like that intentionally vague 'girls club' line.

That way I'm roleplaying my Shepard the way I want to. Getting told 'not interested' may not be what I want to hear but at least it covers the issue instead of cowering from it.

This. So very much this.
Besides, it'd be fun to make Jacob even more uncomfortable with "forcing those talks".

It would be a heavy risk, but the priiiiiiize. What? you'rethe one who brought up Jacob!

Anyway, I agree. If you want some party members to be heterosexual, that's fine. But if you won't include same sex romances, at least let us make the attempt so our Shepard will be confirmed to be homosexual.

[FKA_Servo]

Signed and supported, of course. Great job on the new thread!

[jlb524]

The Uncanny wrote...

That way I'm roleplaying my Shepard the way I want to. Getting told 'not interested' may not be what I want to hear but at least it covers the issue instead of cowering from it.

I can see it now...ME3 won't have true s/s romances, but Shepard can at least get shot down by the same-sex heterosexual crew members.  They'll wrap it in a bow and call it 'progress'. 

[Garuda One]

After seeing E3, threads like this scare me for the future of Mass Effect 3. Christ I can see it now, BioWare drops all gameplay elements of fighting and plot development, you can only play it on Kentic and the setting is a space High School and the characters in your classroom are the characters from ME 1 and 2 and you flirt with every single character and then go into a relationship, you can choose to continue the plot with that character or go Renegade and cheat behind their back. Your homeroom teacher is the Illusive Man, Doc is the School Nurse. You can romance anyone and everything.

And you can get jobs the main one being joining the Glee group and sing at random.

I really hope it never comes down to that.

You people really need to set down the Twilight Books. Maybe pick of Enders Game or Ringworld or prehaps watch a good space flick like Bladerunner or Space Oddessy. Clear your heads a bit.

Modifié par Garuda One, 16 juin 2010 - 11:27 .

[HopHazzard]

^ I really don't know how you get all that from people wanting LI's that they actually find attractive.



No one's asking for drastic changes in gameplay and story. We just want a gay option.

[LiquidGrape]

[Purge]

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 18 juillet 2010 - 12:42 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Liquid Grape that video is appearin in my quick text box wtf

EEDIT:  Nevermind that seemed to be an error on my browser side

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 16 juin 2010 - 10:33 .

[Garuda One]

HopHazzard wrote...
 We just want a gay option.

If thats all you want I'll back you guys up. I always thought it should had been fare that ME should have let anyone choose who they wanted to romance in the ME Universe. But I swear if anyone starts asking for more dating sim **** I will find you I swear, I will FIND YOU. I don't care who you fall in love with in life but if ME3 has me trying to figure out what kind of new tinted plexy glass face for Tali or taking Samara on a mission just so I can find her, her Justicar Superwomen Comicbook and she starts talking about dating and then it goes into a soap opera. I will find you



Christ since the DLC has come out for ME my friends won't stop talking about hoping BioWare makes a dating sim DLC so they can further romance their interset. It's been driving me up a wall. I have to hear it every single morning and every night after work. Not to mention my cousin loves to talk about her romance DLC and part of my family are interested in buying the Kentic.

Alright, I'm chill now

[Red by Full Metal Jacket]

elearon1 wrote...

Oh yes, something else I wanted to point out - I have seen a number of people refer to Bioware as homophobes and claiming this is why they left out homosexual relationships - but in truth Bioware has long been the company willing to touch these topics and allow same sex relationships in their games. Kotor 1&2, Jade Empire, Dragon Age, Baldur's Gate 2, and some I'm forgetting all have same sex relationship options - so it is unfair to label them as homophobic merely because they made a (I would agree, poor) decision to leave that out of the Mass Effect series.

At least give the folks credit for the inroads they *have* made toward inclusive romance in the crpg world.

Uh, for f/f, just Juhani. The Baldur's Gate and KOTOR games don't have m/m relationships at all.  It's a bit funny how Bioware built up a reputation as being inculsive to same-sex romances when only a few of the games actually contain them.

Ultimately I'd like s/s relationship in the Mass Effect games but it's just wishful thinking at this point.  They made a consious decision no remove them from the first two games and I don't think they will change their minds. =(

[DaeJi]

The main draw of Mass Effect is choice. Having more choices means a better game.Having same sex romances will give players more choices, and hence a better game.

[langelog]

DaeJi wrote...

The main draw of Mass Effect is choice. Having more choices means a better game.Having same sex romances will give players more choices, and hence a better game.

Can't argue that logic.

[Garuda One]

DaeJi wrote...

The main draw of Mass Effect is choice. Having more choices means a better game.Having same sex romances will give players more choices, and hence a better game.

[Ramble Alert, I will being to ramble nonsense]
Its funny you should say that. I let my friend play Dragon Age and before he played it he really didn't like gay people or at least, made fun of them and would comments, nothing like pure hate or anything. Durning his playthrough and he said he thought Z hitted on him (forget his name, more of a ME fan then DA fan) after fully finishing the game his favorite characters where Morrigan and Z and he did a play through as a Gay Warden, which shocked me. He still likes women but I think his look at the homosexual community has changed for the good and when I talk to him he rarely says it any longer and he doesn't make comments about gay couples at the mall anymore ether.

Think more games should be like DA quite honestly, even if someone isn't gay I think it would have a positive influence if we had more range of characters. In DA, Z makes one past and that's it, never says it again unless the character choose to go that route. Sorta of hard for me to explain this and I don't want people to take offense if I say it in correctly so my apologize if I do.

If in video games we had more people of different sex, sexuaility prefrence and skin tone and weren't of a certain stereotype, peoples outlook on those said other people would change. Part of the reason why my friend disliked gay people before he played DA was because in our High School and then again in Collage we came across the kind of people who like to make it known to the world what their prefence is and the people who didn't do that but simply acted like a regular couple in love got the short end of the stick, so if he saw, which he did a couple who were simply holding hands and that was it, he would say **** about them.

As hard as it may sound but yes my friend changed his outlook on gay people by simply playing Dragon Age: Origins. He still loves women and chases after them like Johny Bravo but he now rarely says anything to the gay community at our college.

My point at agreeing with DaeJi? Make a good story and good characters, let them have a wide range of personilities and don't let them fall under a certain stereotype and you can start to change peoples outlook on life. In our world today Video Gaming has begun to play a bigger part in everyday life if it already hasn't.

[edit]: I really hope I didn't ****** anyone off with my post.

Modifié par Garuda One, 17 juin 2010 - 01:55 .

[elearon1]

>>The Baldur's Gate and KOTOR games don't have m/m relationships at all. <<



BG2 had a male character - he was a knight I think. And KotoR 2 had the pilot guy - unfortunately he was toned down, just like the sith woman, so you never got in a truly deep relationship - but you can most definitely tell it was there; quite a few signs remain throughout your interactions with him.



>>It's a bit funny how Bioware built up a reputation as being inculsive to same-sex romances when only a few of the games actually contain them.<<



These tend to be some of their most popular games, though, and they have grown bolder about it with each successive release. (baring ME2) Before Bioware started doing it I don't believe anyone else was and I know for a fact (from comments made by other game companies) that Bioware's emphasis on deeper relationships in games has contributed to them becoming a point of interest for other developers. You have to admit this is a difficult area for games to branch into - do to public reaction concerns - and so someone has to be the avant guarde here - which Bioware has been doing. Obviously ME2 feels like a step backword, but hopefully they'll note the strong community response here and take it into consideration for the next release.