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[Quething]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

In most cases they let femShep have the same content just because its easier to do that way. Exhibit Kelly: she's the same for guys and girls because they didn't have the budget to make a male yeoman version. Not because they supported same sex stuff.
Or Parasini, in this case they just cut a few seconds of dialog to make the lesbian effect go away. But they didn't add anything for femSheps in that same manner.

See also: Bella the tavern wench in DA:O. First time I met her, I was like... "is she flirting with me? She's totally flirting with me. Haha, wow, she's so into... wait, she isn't? Huh." Then I went back and played with a male warden and suddenly had the opportunity to flirt back and went "oh. I guess she was." Admittedly nothing in either ME was quite that blatant until LotSB came out and we got Tali's (bugged?) dossier, but it is a hazard of the system.

I don't think it's an excuse, though. Big Barthesian here, and from where I'm sitting it doesn't, ultimately, matter what the development or production reasons for a design choice were; what matters is what shows up in the final product, and what shows up in the final product is a lot of women getting thisclose to throwing themselves at femShep and then stalling out,* and a very occasional odd moment between a man and a maleShep that likewise fails to resolve. C'mon, BioWare, you can do better.

* Not helped by the fact that a number of Hale's deliveries to romancable teammates are more convincingly interested than Meer's, even when her line is ostensibly the platonic version. I mean c'mon. "Dismissed, Chief"? And don't tell me I wasn't coming on to Gianna with that "you owe me a beer" line, for that matter, I haven't heard femShep sound that smugly sexy since the Kaidan "serving under me" exchange.

Modifié par Quething, 22 octobre 2010 - 07:14 .

[SimonTheFrog]

Yep i wholeheartedly agree, the situation is pretty awkward as it is now.

[Saibh]

SimonTheFrog wrote...
*snip*
So, bottomline, no conspiracy against male gays i think, just a male centered game with a female hero thrown in as cheaply as possible and cut same sex content because that part of the community has been deemed too small to bother.

I'm a BioWare apologist through-and-through, but their treatment of male homosexuality in this game always grates on my nerves.

They really should have just never answered this question:

Here's how the games are different: Dragon Age is a first person narrative, where you're taking on an origin and a role, and you are that character at a fundamental level. It's fundamentally about defining your character, including those kinds of concepts. In Mass Effect it's more a third person narrative, where you have a pre-defined character who is who he is, or she is. But it's not a wide-open choice matrix. It's more choice on a tactical level with a pre-defined character. So they're different types of narratives, and that's intentional.

This would have been an acceptable excuse if you couldn't make FemShep a lesbian. I'm sure I can dig up plenty of quotes about how Shepard is your character, you define him, blah blah blah. You can handle his history, reputation, appearance, gender, and personality. Your FemShep can be straight, bisexual, or lesbian. But being gay? I guess that's an entirely different part of his personality that they clearly hammered down. I suppose when it comes to Shepard's lifestyle choices they picked: marine and not gay.

It's not like Shepard can pursue every relationship in the game, because they were undiscriminating about what lines Hale voiced. They had to specifically write lesbian romances--and besides that, Mass Effect 1 does include a homosexual romance with Kaidan--it's completely there, just not implemented into the game. They cut it out specifically because they didn't want people to be afraid that their Commander could be only interested in dudes.

So it was a conscious effort on their part to include lesbian romances and not include gay ones.

EDIT: They did actually promise the inclusion of male-male romances in ME2 earlier, and they did voice some lines for it. They just cut them later because they didn't want to risk it. That's fine, I guess. BioWare isn't a giant soapbox. But they just dig themselves into holes when they try to come up with some PR reason why it's not included.

Modifié par Saibh, 23 octobre 2010 - 12:32 .

[MisterDyslexo]

I was just wondering if there has been any official explanation as to why Ashley will often call Shepard "sir" in conversations, and sometimes throw out a flirt line?

[Ryzaki]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

I was just wondering if there has been any official explanation as to why Ashley will often call Shepard "sir" in conversations, and sometimes throw out a flirt line?

Wait that happens? 

/me doesn't play FemShep often enough to notice something like that.

Seriously? No one caught that in QA? 

[Collider]

Stopping by to support same sex (especially M/M) options in ME3 and future Bioware games including DA2.

[MisterDyslexo]

Ryzaki wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...

I was just wondering if there has been any official explanation as to why Ashley will often call Shepard "sir" in conversations, and sometimes throw out a flirt line?

Wait that happens? 

/me doesn't play FemShep often enough to notice something like that.

Seriously? No one caught that in QA? 

I play ME1 like crazy (on 33rd playthrough) and I alternate genders each time (male, female, male, female) so after almost 16 complete FemShep playthroughs, I can tell you it happens often. Even one time when the normandy got locked-down Ashley approached my femshep. Some lines weren't there at all, just subtitles, but it still happened

[Ryzaki]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...

I was just wondering if there has been any official explanation as to why Ashley will often call Shepard "sir" in conversations, and sometimes throw out a flirt line?

Wait that happens? 

/me doesn't play FemShep often enough to notice something like that.

Seriously? No one caught that in QA? 

I play ME1 like crazy (on 33rd playthrough) and I alternate genders each time (male, female, male, female) so after almost 16 complete FemShep playthroughs, I can tell you it happens often. Even one time when the normandy got locked-down Ashley approached my femshep. Some lines weren't there at all, just subtitles, but it still happened

This is without you changing FemShep's gender? 

Good grief BW.  

[Quething]

Well, "Sir" is perfectly appropriate to a superior officer of either gender. Actually TBH the "ma'am" always bugs me (as does Miranda and Jacob calling me "Shepard" alla time from day one despite ostensibly being part of my ostensibly military crew). Sometimes I contemplate using the ME1 hex edit hack even when I don't plan to date Ashley, just so I can be addressed with the proper respect the whole game through.

I admit that's rather more a personal complaint than a universal one. But there is a legitimate argument to be made for consistency at least (if the odd "sir" line is going to sneak through anyway, after all), and hey. All the disk space you save by only recording one version of all those "yes sir/yes ma'am" lines could be spent on doing two versions of somebody's romance lines instead! Win all around.

MisterDyslexo wrote...

I play ME1 like crazy (on 33rd
playthrough) and I alternate genders each time (male, female, male, female) so after  almost 16 complete FemShep playthroughs, I can tell you it happens often. Even one time when the normandy got locked-down Ashley approached my femshep. Some lines weren't there at all, just subtitles, but it still happened

Really? I've played through every possible line of that locker convo with a hacked femShep and never had a silent line, they're all voiced on both sides. If you're getting unvoiced lines, that suggests that there were separate, half-implemented femShep-specific lines for that scene that are getting called instead when the game knows you're female (as opposed to the hacked femShep, who the game thinks is male). Interesting.

Modifié par Quething, 23 octobre 2010 - 04:04 .

[giant.sequoia]

I support this. People have made good suggestions for the straight folks that don't want to accidentally romance their gender, or for people who just don't want to romance anyone. It could work and I'm definitely not the only gay male gamer sick of not existing even in a virtual universe designed to reflect the choices I make.

[icykitty]

More love plots! Be in GLBT or str8 love! Just more love plots pls! Since these ME and DA are adult yargeted, why can't we get more mature love plots?

[SimonTheFrog]

Collider wrote...

Stopping by to support same sex (especially M/M) options in ME3 and future Bioware games including DA2.

Look who's back. 

[Tranceptor]

Quething wrote...



* Not helped by the fact that a number of Hale's deliveries to romancable teammates are more convincingly interested than Meer's, even when her line is ostensibly the platonic version. I mean c'mon. "Dismissed, Chief"? And don't tell me I wasn't coming on to Gianna with that "you owe me a beer" line, for that matter, I haven't heard femShep sound that smugly sexy since the Kaidan "serving under me" exchange.

Oh I know! During my ME playthrough, there was so much sexual tension in "Dismissed, Chief" that I kept wondering if Ashley was going to ask if I was hitting on her.

Saibh wrote...



EDIT: They did actually promise the inclusion of male-male romances in ME2 earlier, and they did voice some lines for it. They just cut them later because they didn't want to risk it. That's fine, I guess. BioWare isn't a giant soapbox. But they just dig themselves into holes when they try to come up with some PR reason why it's not included.

Huh? I've never heard of this. Please explain.

[Quething]

Tranceptor wrote...

Oh I know! During my ME playthrough, there was so much sexual tension in "Dismissed, Chief" that I kept wondering if Ashley was going to ask if I was hitting on her.

Somewhere on this very forum is a rather amusing fanfic about exactly that. Sadly, I don't have it bookmarked. I will say that's the one thing I hate most about the hex edit trick; I can deal with the two or three "he/him/man"s in the whole course of the game, and the odd Meer voiceover in cutscenes, but I really, really miss the "Dismissed, Chief"/"Ma'am" exchange. It's just dripping with sexy subtext that the actual romance line "talk to you later"/"looking forward to it" simply doesn't have.

Heh, that reminds me. BioWare's got these tropes they always come back to. There's The Carth, of course (though he gets a much worse rap than he deserves, and the straight women seem to really like him, even if the Kaidan/Thane/Sky/Alistair fangirls are less vocal than the haters), and the Ancient Elite Order of Protectors for the protagonist to join, and the Amusingly Evil Homicidal Sidekick to carry around. And, of course, my personal favorite, the Morally Questionable, Partially Redeemable Brunette Love Interest. BioWare loves her, and so do I. They gave me a choice between Carth and Juhani, I hacked my game and flirted with Bastila. They gave me a choice between Alistair, Zevran and Leliana, I hacked my game and got my heart broken by Morrigan. They gave me a choice between Kaidan and Liara, I hacked my game and made Ashley feel good enough. Garrus would almost make the cut if he were human, but even then I'd still hack my game for Miranda. So here's my additional request, beyond simply "can we get some same-sex romance": swap your tropes a bit, BioWare, let the Prickly Female Lead be the bi option and have the Sweet Young Thing be the het-only alternate choice for once. I mean, you did it with Jade Empire and the game didn't explode, right?

[Tranceptor]

Quething wrote...

Tranceptor wrote...

Oh I know! During my ME playthrough, there was so much sexual tension in "Dismissed, Chief" that I kept wondering if Ashley was going to ask if I was hitting on her.

 It's just dripping with sexy subtext that the actual romance line "talk to you later"/"looking forward to it" simply doesn't have.

Few things do

Heh, that reminds me. BioWare's got these tropes they always come back to. There's The Carth, of course (though he gets a much worse rap than he deserves, and the straight women seem to really like him, even if the Kaidan/Thane/Sky/Alistair fangirls are less vocal than the haters), and the Ancient Elite Order of Protectors for the protagonist to join, and the Amusingly Evil Homicidal Sidekick to carry around.

I liked Carth, just not in THAT way. He was more like a buddy than a romance, like my lez Revan's straight best friend. 


 

And, of course, my personal favorite, the Morally Questionable, Partially Redeemable Brunette Love Interest.BioWare loves her, and so do I.

Yeah, Morally questionable gets me every time too

 

They gave me a choice between Carth and Juhani, I hacked my game and flirted with Bastila.

Same here, I actually found a lovely mod for it. To date, still one of the best mods I've ever got.

They gave me a choice between Alistair, Zevran and Leliana, I hacked my game and got my heart broken by Morrigan.

Used a mod for that too. While I think Leliana was great and loved her character,  my female warden romancing Morrigan was far more satisfying and moving.

And lets face it, making out in front of everyone was always fun.

They gave me a choice between Kaidan and Liara, I hacked my game and made Ashley feel good enough.

It's tempting, but hearing maleshep voice from my character would just kill it for me. But I do wish they had made her romanceable for my femshep. If there was a DLC for that, I would pay and replay ME1 just for that.

Garrus would almost make the cut if he were human.

You think so?

Personaly I'd headbump that.

For my maleshep, Garrus was the only male character that would have worked. If only it were possible.

I'd still hack my game for Miranda.

I know, she has such potential. It would have been a great, great thing. Hell I might have even settled for Jack. 

Liara is my fav, but my femsheps are kinda hurting for options. 

So here's my additional request, beyond simply "can we get some same-sex romance": swap your tropes a bit, BioWare, let the Prickly Female Lead be the bi option and have the Sweet Young Thing be the het-only alternate choice for once. I mean, you did it with Jade Empire and the game didn't explode, right?

Ah, Jade Empire got it so right


If onyl they just made everyone bi, I know it hurts replay a smidge, but it would be nice.

Modifié par Tranceptor, 24 octobre 2010 - 01:58 .

[SimonTheFrog]

It's tempting, but hearing maleshep voice from my character would just kill it for me. But I do wish they had made her romanceable for my femshep. If there was a DLC for that, I would pay and replay ME1 just for that.

Maybe you should try it. I'm currently actually having this run (femshep going to romance Ash) and most of the time its no different to playing vanilla! The very few times when there is suddenly a male voice (in some cutscenes a few lines and shouts like when you enter the mako) you can kinda pretend it's someone else talking...  Really, sofar it's not that bad at all.

I found the genderswitch in ME2 much more disturbing, especially as it had to be made during the romantic dialogs 


About the stereotypical women, i don't think its the morally ambiguity that is fascinating but these are the characters that appear more grown up and down-to-earth. 

At least for me a good LI is somehow as powerful and self-reliant as my hero. I don't need someone who looks up (or down) to the hero (which is something that bothers me about the Tali-LI, even though Tali is cute. But there is not really a feeling of parity there...) Anyhow... just ranting a bit.

[RideUrLightning]

No offense, but my view of Garrus would be tainted if this were possible.

[SimonTheFrog]

RideUrLightning wrote...

No offense, but my view of Garrus would be tainted if this were possible.

What do you mean?

[Quething]

Tranceptor wrote...

I liked Carth, just not in THAT way. He was more like a buddy than a romance, like my lez Revan's straight best friend.

Honestly, I can't think of a BioWare party member that I genuinely don't like. Liara used to strike some bad notes with me, but post-LotSB, even her ME1 dialogs seem more coherent to me, and I warmed up to Canderous pretty quickly on my third or fourth playthrough when I finally started keeping him around enough to get to know him. Admittedly I kind of like Jacob in spite of the game rather than because of it, but that's still something, right? I sypmathized with Carth and was happy to help with his kid. Kaidan was my bro, I relied on him for level-headed support. No hate. They're just very not my romantic type.

Yeah, Morally questionable gets me every time too../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png

I like the "partially redeemable" myself. I like the characters where your PC can make a mark, where you can see a real change in their life and outlook due to the importance of the hero in their lives, but, there's still a line they won't cross, a principle or goal that's more important to them then the strength of your Persuade check. Broad-minded and capable of growth, without being syncophantic. Also, snarky. My mainShep is embarassingly sincere (some uncharitable gunnery chiefs might even say "cheesy"), she needs someone irreverent to balance her out.

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Maybe you should try it. I'm currently actually having this run (femshep going to romance Ash) and most of the time its no different to playing vanilla!

Yeah, I think there are only three spots where it's a problem: the beacon cutscene, the breaking-the-lockdown cutscene and the leaving-the-elevator cutscene. It is pretty jarring each time, but it's only one line per scene, which is about a minute total in a twenty-to-forty hour game. The volume discrepancy is the bigger annoyance IMO.

At least for me a good LI is somehow as powerful and self-reliant as my hero. I don't need someone who looks up (or down) to the hero (which is something that bothers me about the Tali-LI, even though Tali is cute. But there is not really a feeling of parity there...) Anyhow... just ranting a bit.

Yes. Yes, exactly this. My femShep could never love a damsel-in-distress. Regardless of her biotics and actual gameplay prowess, story-wise Liara was a civilian, nearly a kid, somebody she was supposed to protect, who forgave her just about anything. Ashley was a fellow warrior who she fought beside, who would argue with her, force her to think and justify herself, and dump her ass if she tried to play head games. There was never even the pretense of a contest.

(Which makes LotSB really interesting for me. I mean, that's exactly why Liara is such a headcase about the Broker, right? Because she's trying to stop being the girl-who-gets-rescued, trying to get to a place where she can see herself as Shepard's equal. Okay, and now I'm even sadder about Witch Hunt.)

Modifié par Quething, 24 octobre 2010 - 07:40 .

[Tranceptor]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

It's tempting, but hearing maleshep voice from my character would just kill it for me. But I do wish they had made her romanceable for my femshep. If there was a DLC for that, I would pay and replay ME1 just for that.

Maybe you should try it. I'm currently actually having this run (femshep going to romance Ash) and most of the time its no different to playing vanilla! The very few times when there is suddenly a male voice (in some cutscenes a few lines and shouts like when you enter the mako) you can kinda pretend it's someone else talking...  Really, sofar it's not that bad at all.

It'd drive me nuts. I can let go hearing a "he" or "him", like with my Morrigan romance. But not hearing a mans voice come out of my female character.

At least for me a good LI is somehow as powerful and self-reliant as my hero. I don't need someone who looks up (or down) to the hero (which is something that bothers me about the Tali-LI, even though Tali is cute. But there is not really a feeling of parity there...) Anyhow... just ranting a bit.

I get it, and that is ideal as a whole but ultimately for me what works really just depends on the personality of the particular character. For Tali it made total sense that she would be like that and it works for her. But Miranda, she is very much her own person and wouldn't be anything but an equal.

From my real life dating experiances, personally I can appreciate the various flavors of RPG LI's in their own ways. Each has something a little different to offer and enjoy for me.

Not that I don't have favs. . . .

Most important of all is that they not be one dimensional.

Quething wrote...
I like the "partially redeemable" myself. I like the characters where your PC can make a mark, where you can see a real change in their life and outlook due to the importance of the hero in their lives, but, there's still a line they won't cross, a principle or goal that's more important to them then the strength of your Persuade check. Broad-minded and capable of growth, without being syncophantic. Also, snarky. My mainShep is embarassingly sincere (some uncharitable gunnery chiefs might even say "cheesy"), she needs someone irreverent to balance her out.

I like that as well, it helped make some of Morrigain's lines very very moving. You couldn't change her, but you could nudge her character just enough to lend some emotional depth to her words. Which was something that I found a bit lacking with Leliana, she was sweet and romantic but not as deep as I would have liked.

Quething wrote...

Honestly, I can't think of a BioWare party member that I genuinely don't like.

I can think of a couple I don't like, but only one I flat out hate. Interestingly none of them are romance options.

(Which makes LotSB really interesting for me. I mean, that's exactly why Liara is such a headcase about the Broker, right? Because she's trying to stop being the girl-who-gets-rescued, trying to get to a place where she can see herself as Shepard's equal. Okay, and now I'm even sadder about Witch Hunt.)

Oh yeah, LoTSB really elevated her character, she went from the naive damsel in distress to formidable power over the two games. That made a romance with her rather rewarding in a several ways.

[Quething]

Tranceptor wrote...

I can think of a couple I don't like, but only one I flat out hate. Interestingly none of them are romance options.

Is one of them Wynne? Because I was just poking around the DA:O forums and apparently a lot of people hate Wynne. That would not have occured to me. I mean, the minute I met Miranda I knew half the fanbase would loathe her, I was never surprised by the venom for Carth, but I did not see the Wynne animosity coming.

Heh, and now that we've completely derailed the thread... All this waxing Goddamn nostalgic about Bastilas and Viconias and Morrigans and whatnot has made something occur to me. I called that trope the "Prickly Female Lead" above without really thinking, but it's absolutely true. Your standard BioWare game does have at least one, I dunno, "preferred" romance, one which got the lion's share of development time and makes the most difference to the story. KotOR, frex, rotates around Bastila as much as Revan; romancing Carth is kind of a fun bonus side-story, romancing Juhani is practically an easter egg, romancing Bastila adds texture to and changes the face of the biggest decisions in the game. For Dragon Age, you can pursue the Warden heir to the throne or the active half of the Dark Ritual, who have, between them, about as much banter and plot interjections as the rest of the party combined... or you can romance a pair of rogues who you can kill off or never even meet if you so choose. Post-LotSB, ME1 seems more balanced, but before ME2 came out, the Virmire choice made it as clear as day who the devs expected your Shep to care about.

So I think, when I ask for parity here, it's not just about the personality types... it's about the fact that the gay option is always the option. Always a side character. If I want the full story, the full BioWare gaming experience where my romance option enriches the entire main plot, my PC can't be gay, because the female lead is always straight. Even when there's a queer option, she's a supporting character, someone the story doesn't actually need, someone who feels more like she's there for the sole sake of choice and jealousy dialogs while the main plot revolves around other, more meaningful NPCs. And on the rare occasions when there even is a queer male option... I don't know, guys, I genuinely like Zevran and on pure story merit, his introduction is a good one and the options that are there need to be there for the plot to make sense. But it still skeeves me out that the one undeniably, unashamedly queer male is the guy whose throat you can slit the minute you meet him without anybody so much as blinking. Liara is a major, major step in the right direction with this, now that she's [insert massive spoilers here], but that takes three damn games to resolve. I'd still like to see BioWare do better. And for both genders. Give us a male lead on the level of Alistair, who's just as essential to the plot, just as key to whatever happens with the Reapers as Al was to the fate of Ferelden. Make him cute and funny and sweet and carefully calculated to melt all the ladies in their seats. And then let the maleSheps flirt with him too if they like. Don't take the easy way out and tack on some suave but ultimately meaningless swashbuckler who we never even have to recruit.

[SimonTheFrog]

I agree, but with Mass Effect you skip a step there. Male Shep has noone to talk to if he's gay :/ Not even the meaningless swashbuckler. Or a male Kelly. Nothing.



Also, i wouldn't mind a real female ss path either. Liara is alright no doubt, but since we're dreaming anyway

[Khem]

I too support same sex relationships in ME3. (English is not my native language, apologies in advance for the following unclear rambling.)



Quething's points about the desirable importance of the s/s-character are excellent. The gay/bi "option" should, of course, like all romance IMHO, be an "option", but the character should be an essential one. And, if at all possible, a person who just happens to like his or her own gender without any particular drama about it.



When I play a good RPGish computer game, I like to think about the kind of character I play on each playthrough. I make "suboptimal" choices, earning less money or gear and develop more obscure skills simply because these choices fit the kind of person I wish to be at that time. I enjoy games that allow me to shape my character's skills and reputation to fit my chosen playstyle. (Examples include Fallouts, Deus Ex, DA and ME and ME2.)



A romance in a game is a nice way to get added depth into the roleplaying experience. In real life I'm a happily married bisexual male. I don't really care about (nor mind) pixelated sex scenes, but to me the plot and the characters are the point. In my mind my (primary) Shepard was a bisexual male who ultimately went without relationships in both games simply because the available persons held too little appeal. (One too weak, one too aggressive with a racist streak, one from an unappealing species etc.)



Kaidan I could have gone for, damnit! The scenes by the orange screens had, to me at least, an obvious homoerotic charge and I was not in the least surprised (but very disappointed) to hear Kaidan was originally scripted as bi. However, I was happy to hear Jack did not play in the girls' team - she was too obviously too angry and too broken a personality - having had her go both ways, let alone strictly s/s, would have been an ugly stereotype rearing its head. (See - that's what happens to abused children!)



The things that have been said here about added icons (flirtatious / aggressive etc) to the otherwise excellent conversation wheel make lots of sense. I like the fact that Shepard's occasionally very verbose dialogue differs from the shorthand options, but like many others I have occasionally been horrified at what he actually says when I thought I chose something entirely different. Also, as has been said before, falling into relationships is way too easy when you just want to be a nice person. In my primary playthrough I ended up avoiding Ashley like the plague after all conversation options were about cold showers. :-(



(This problem was solved shortly after. Which strangely enough was the one time I really liked her.)



To make a long story short, for obvious equality reasons I want the gay option included in ME3. Ultimately I'd prefer a bisexual lead NPC (or one who just happens to go for the player's gender in each game), someone who could have a relationship with Shep on at least something resembling an equal basis and someone _nice_ (*) and relatively sane and balanced. In the same person, of course. Someone like Kaidan or Alistair would have done it for me, but they weren't available for males and similar females were not to be found.



* = Then again, a very Renegade paramour would be an interesting additional option, as well.

[Tranceptor]

Quething wrote...

Tranceptor wrote...

I can think of a couple I don't like, but only one I flat out hate. Interestingly none of them are romance options.

Is one of them Wynne? Because I was just poking around the DA:O forums and apparently a lot of people hate Wynne. That would not have occured to me. I mean, the minute I met Miranda I knew half the fanbase would loathe her, I was never surprised by the venom for Carth, but I did not see the Wynne animosity coming.

Not me, I adored Wynne. I thought she was a great character, I really don't understand why so many people hate her. My guess is it's probably because she's the only actuall adult in the party.  I valued her greatly and while I disagreed with a few of her views, I can't imagine a playthrough without her. 

I was actually thinking more like Sten who, after my first playthrough, I leave in his cage to die. He's the only one from DA:O I genuinely hate. Same with Whirlwind from Jade Empire. But everyone else from Bioware games are are 'okay' at the very least, more often than not they are fantastic.  

Heh, and now that we've completely derailed the thread... All this waxing Goddamn nostalgic about Bastilas and Viconias and Morrigans

Don't forget Silk Fox!

and whatnot has made something occur to me. I called that trope the "Prickly Female Lead" above without really thinking, but it's absolutely true. Your standard BioWare game does have at least one, I dunno, "preferred" romance, one which got the lion's share of development time and makes the most difference to the story. KotOR, frex, rotates around Bastila as much as Revan; romancing Carth is kind of a fun bonus side-story, romancing Juhani is practically an easter egg, romancing Bastila adds texture to and changes the face of the biggest decisions in the game.

I've never done the Juhani romance. I tried twice but couldn't manage it. Once I got the Bastila mod I stopped trying. . . I should really play that game again.
 

For Dragon Age, you can pursue the Warden heir to the throne or the active half of the Dark Ritual, who have, between them, about as much banter and plot interjections as the rest of the party combined... or you can romance a pair of rogues who you can kill off or never even meet if you so choose. Post-LotSB, ME1 seems more balanced, but before ME2 came out, the Virmire choice made it as clear as day who the devs expected your Shep to care about.

Hmmm, I hadn't quite thought of it that way but I think you're right. Which is unfortunate because any character I play of any gender in an RPG is gay by default. The Rogue for gay male wardens wasn't all that great and while I love the Rogue for gay female wardens it just lacked the depth of the straight options.

So I think, when I ask for parity here, it's not just about the personality types... it's about the fact that the gay option is always the option. Always a side character. If I want the full story, the full BioWare gaming experience where my romance option enriches the entire main plot, my PC can't be gay, because the female lead is always straight. Even when there's a queer option, she's a supporting character, someone the story doesn't actually need, someone who feels more like she's there for the sole sake of choice and jealousy dialogs while the main plot revolves around other, more meaningful NPCs. And on the rare occasions when there even is a queer male option... I don't know, guys, I genuinely like Zevran and on pure story merit, his introduction is a good one and the options that are there need to be there for the plot to make sense. But it still skeeves me out that the one undeniably, unashamedly queer male is the guy whose throat you can slit the minute you meet him without anybody so much as blinking.

Certainly can't argue that.

Though Zevran is so charming that it's just hard for me to kill him. My gripe with his romance is that, it seems so shallow when it didn't have to be since he has a GREAT backstory. Ultimately for me he always ends up in the role of friend to my warden.

It's mod time. . . . again.

Liara is a major, major step in the right direction with this, now that she's [insert massive spoilers here], but that takes three damn games to resolve.

Oh yeah, but Shepards line about marriage and lots of little blue children made the wait so worth it. Though to be fair the same can be said about Kaidan and Ashley, it will take 3 games to resolve their romances. So I can be a bit forgiving on that basis. 
 

I'd still like to see BioWare do better. And for both genders. Give us a male lead on the level of Alistair, who's just as essential to the plot, just as key to whatever happens with the Reapers as Al was to the fate of Ferelden. Make him cute and funny and sweet and carefully calculated to melt all the ladies in their seats. And then let the maleSheps flirt with him too if they like. Don't take the easy way out and tack on some suave but ultimately meaningless swashbuckler who we never even have to recruit.

I'll take Garrus.
 
But yours is good too.

[Tranceptor]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

I agree, but with Mass Effect you skip a step there. Male Shep has noone to talk to if he's gay :/ Not even the meaningless swashbuckler. Or a male Kelly. Nothing.

Also, i wouldn't mind a real female ss path either. Liara is alright no doubt, but since we're dreaming anyway

It's true. I don't care if he's human or alien, I just think the option should be there.

For a female path, Miranda would have been perfect. I still can't get over the fact taht not even Jack was available.