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[SimonTheFrog]

I just watched "The wire" and it's amazing how casually they have one of the leading roles be gay and not making any drama about it. This is how it's done.



I wonder why so few games are on this level from a cultural perspective. There's really a lot to do before we can take them seriously as a contribution to current zeitgeist.



Well, blockbusters in cinema are pretty retarded most of the time. I guess that's what the gaming industry is aiming for.

[MisterDyslexo]

Tranceptor wrote...

SimonTheFrog wrote...

I agree, but with Mass Effect you skip a step there. Male Shep has noone to talk to if he's gay :/ Not even the meaningless swashbuckler. Or a male Kelly. Nothing.

Also, i wouldn't mind a real female ss path either. Liara is alright no doubt, but since we're dreaming anyway

It's true. I don't care if he's human or alien, I just think the option should be there.

For a female path, Miranda would have been perfect. I still can't get over the fact taht not even Jack was available.

I would like to use this moment to once again point out that while you can have an encounter with four different aliens (five, if you count the consort), two of which having an extremely different biology (amino-acid vs dextro-acid), one who has a dead wife and remembers every moment with her, and develop a relationship with these characters, you can't have an encounter with another of the same sex of the same species. The only good thing I see in this is that they can't refute their reasons for excluding it by saying "it's not natural".

[Quething]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

I agree, but with Mass Effect you skip a step there. Male Shep has noone to talk to if he's gay :/ Not even the meaningless swashbuckler. Or a male Kelly. Nothing.

Well, he was supposed to get Thane, right? Which, hey. Suave swashbuckler who you don't even have to recruit, who has no meaningful role in the Suicide Mission.

Though I admit the more I think about this the more I like Liara. I'll be honest, I was seriously not fond of that character back in the days of ME1. She's a discount lesbian and an inexperienced virgin who needs Shep to teach her about humans and relationships and the super-forgiving cheerleader who treats you like some kind of awesome saint for exhibiting basic human decency (man it squicked me when she thanked me for being "patient" with her). There was nothing about her that didn't make every feminist bone in my body scream in revolt. (Not to say she was an inherently 'bad' character, exactly, just that she was kind of a perfect storm of my personal most-hated tropes.)

Except, somehow, a couple years later and suddenly she's this deep, complex and challenging character with a profound growth arc, subtle characterization, probably the most fun, true, sexy love scene BioWare's ever written, and she's a queer character who cannot be dismissed, killed off or abused and is completely integral to the wider story and the success of the protagonist's mission. What the hell, why is she so awesome now? This is exactly the character I want! Good on you, BioWare. Now do it with some humans and some men and make it possible in every game and we'll be all set.

Modifié par Quething, 26 octobre 2010 - 11:47 .

[Tranceptor]

Heh, glad to hear you've warmed to her. She's certainly my favourite Bioware f/f romance.



But they really do need to step it up for the guys. I'm sure I've mentioned it before, but the one's they've had so far all. . . . what 2 of them? Just haven't been appealing to me. I'm kinda tired of it cause I know they can deliver, but for some reason they just don't.

[SimonTheFrog]

Speaking of Liara... a bit ot but yes, she grew... but i was kinda amazed that she became that swiss army knife of perfection: she is a dedicated scholar of archeology, pretty much leading her field of expertize since she's merely a teenager, she's a powerful biotic that can easily fight against a spectre in hand-to-hand combat (spectres being the pinacle of military training) and now she's in the information business, rocking the house like noone else again (each "profession" requires a certain amount of training i suppose... are her days longer than those of anybody else?).

Oh, and she's modest, charming, beautiful, funny, slim (not so unusual for asari, though, it seems) and still a teenager btw.

I wonder what's next? She can make good coffee? Cure Kepral's Syndrome? Learns to divide by zero? Invents a reaper eating death-star?



Well, i suppose as ME is heading into the comic area of fiction anyway, characters like her will become the normal thing in the ME universe.



I agree, though, that her relationship with femShep is quite sweet and makes me a little less angry

[Quething]

Actually she's pretty much on the run from Vasir until Shepard shows up. And the purely intellectual aspect of being an info broker - making mental connections, understanding social patterns, translating code, remembering info, learning as much from what you're not finding as you do from what's there - isn't so different from her career as a scientist. That said, it's true she's gotten kind of unbelievable... but then Shepard can do advanced biochemistry with substandard equipment in the middle of a rachni-infested lab, resist an Ardat-Yakshi's control by sheer willpower, persuade someone out of Reaper indoctrination, solo a thresher maw with nothing but a service pistol, and win a fistfight with a yahg. I don't think Shep's friends, allies and romantic partners being fairly impressive as well is too out of line.

[SimonTheFrog]

Good point

[ElitePinecone]

Tranceptor wrote...

But they really do need to step it up for the guys. I'm sure I've mentioned it before, but the one's they've had so far all. . . . what 2 of them? Just haven't been appealing to me. I'm kinda tired of it cause I know they can deliver, but for some reason they just don't.

Assuming you mean Sky (Jade Empire) and Zevran from DA:O? 

While I agree that it would be great to have an unconventional, non-stereotypical male romance option, at least in the two games above the option was there. Something is better than nothing, surely. I'm torn between the knowledge that Bioware do have real and solid boundaries (of cash, time, effort, sales, "public opinion"), and my own (and presumably many others') requests or proposals for certain types of content. The precedent set by Jade Empire and DAO is at least a start, however sparse or conventional the romance options and despite a fair amount of backpedalling for Mass Effect and its sequel. 

Having said that, gaming isn't philanthropy and there needs to be significant consumer demand for content for it to be even considered. One of the devs for Dragon Age commented that we'd be surprised if the total number of male Warden-Zerran romances were ever made public. Make of that what you will  

[SimonTheFrog]

Now i'm curious. What do you think, did (s)he mean surprise like many people going for it or next to no-one? To me both seems possible :/

[ElitePinecone]

I believe the suggestion was that more people had gone for the Zevran-male Warden romance than many would suspect. As I recall, it was in a thread arguing for (or about) s/s content in DA2. I don't remember the actual quote, or the person who said it (it may have been David Gaider?). I'll try and track it down, so this doesn't solely rely on my hazy memories.

[Tranceptor]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Oh, and she's modest, charming, beautiful, funny, slim (not so unusual for asari, though, it seems) and still a teenager btw.

*sigh* if I could I'd steal her from my femshep. . . . 

I wonder what's next? She can make good coffee? Cure Kepral's Syndrome? Learns to divide by zero? Invents a reaper eating death-star?

I'd settle for the coffee, everything else would just be icing.

Though to put it in perspective: 

Quething wrote...
Shepard can do advanced biochemistry with substandard equipment in the middle of a rachni-infested lab, resist an Ardat-Yakshi's control by sheer willpower, persuade someone out of Reaper indoctrination, solo a thresher maw with nothing but a service pistol, and win a fistfight with a yahg. I don't think Shep's friends, allies and romantic partners being fairly impressive as well is too out of line.

And what's more, shouldn't Shepardbe with someoen who is her/his equal?

Honestly though, if she wasn't any of those things and was simply a smart charming nerdy archeologist who was kinda cute, I'd think her character was perfect.

I agree, though, that her relationship with femShep is quite sweet and makes me a little less angry

Isn't it though? See there is something for everyone to love

[Tranceptor]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Assuming you mean Sky (Jade Empire) and Zevran from DA:O? 

Yes

While I agree that it would be great to have an unconventional, non-stereotypical male romance option, at least in the two games above the option was there. Something is better than nothing, surely.

Oh absolutely, I sing the praise of Bioware that they include these.

I'm torn between the knowledge that Bioware do have real and solid boundaries (of cash, time, effort, sales, "public opinion"), and my own (and presumably many others') requests or proposals for certain types of content.

I understand those things, I really do. To a certain extent it can even make for a decent arguement. My gripe isn't about them not breaking new ground, but rather that it's something which I feel is well within their capabilities. Such as alowing Alistair/Kaidan/Garrus to be available. Surely it would only have meant the minor addition of a few lines?

gaming isn't philanthropy and there needs to be significant consumer demand for content for it to be even considered.

I know

Modifié par Tranceptor, 27 octobre 2010 - 01:32 .

[ElitePinecone]

I found the quote:

David Gaider (from Bioware), referring to same-sex romances in Dragon Age: 

"Insofar as the male-male romance content goes specifically, there's no evidence to suggest it affected sales in the slightest. In fact, our own telemetry shows that the content was used by more players than most people would assume (you can draw your own conclusions from that)."

Having not yet fully played through DA:O (waiting for the Ultimate edition to be released in Australia in a few weeks), it seems to me that this 'series' of games (including DA2) is somewhat more relaxed about including s/s content (specifically human s/s content, and male s/s content) than the Mass Effect line appears to be. There's a great post by Gaider which appears to be strongly in favour of preserving non-mainstream content: linky (indeed, that whole thread is a counterpart to this one, and has some amazing quotes by Bioware reps).

I'm unsure how to reconcile this with the actual experience of s/s content being cut from ME/ME2 - or the justifications for said cuts, which were somewhat less than coherent.

[Tranceptor]

Oh thanks, that links quite helpful!



I don't understand the ME cuts either. I hope one will be available for ME3, but I am feeling a bit pessimistic about it though.

[Quething]

I really do think it's an audience thing - they think that the solidly-RPG crowd they draw with Dragon Age is more amenable to s/s content than the more shooter-heavy crowd they look for with ME.



Not that I personally see that as a terribly valid concern, but I do think it's a common perception.

[Tranceptor]

It does have a sorta superficial logic to it and it's as good an explaination as any.

[Quething]

So, guys. Isabela! Minor DA:O NPC, party member and potential s/s LI in DA:2. If they did this for ME3, what NPC would you want? I'm going to go ahead and say let's not stipulate that they showed any s/s attraction in ME1 or 2, even though that's undoubtedly the major factor in Isabela's use as a queer LI, since... well, that would limit us to asari, and I'd like the guys to be able to play too.



Course I wouldn't want an asari either, it's getting a little old. Gianna Parisini would be the obvious choice, in that case, she's the only non-asari female NPC who really comes close to flirting with femShep (femShep certainly flirts with her), and she's got two games of continuity already. But as long as we're on Noveria, what the hell, how about Maeko Matsuo? She was cool. Understated wit, and respectful of but not at all intimidated by Shepard.



For the guys... okay, Ken Donnelly. Because he's kind of cute when he's flustered, we all know accents are sexy, and it would be hilarious to watch Gabby alternately being protective and teasing him mercilessly. Plus, hey, dude risked a court-martial for you before you ever even met. That's loyalty.

[AdmiralCheez]

Just popping in to say I fully support the idea of ME3 including optional same-sex relationships for both genders. Keep at it, guys; you've said way more than I ever could about the subject.

[ScooterPie88]

I think it's just a crappy idea and wouldn't be willing to compromise. Liara and Femshep don't really bother me as all Asari are "female." I just think it's political correctness gone nuts. It's unnecessary and furthermore unwanted by a majority of players. I think it was kind of screwy to do it DA and I can't speak for Jade Empire but another popular Bioware game, Knights of the Old Republic, left it out and was none the worse for it (in my opinion better because of it). I don't like my videogames having political statements in them. A theme is one thing (fighting for freedom or survival) but something so politcally charged would bother me and I feel would hurt the franchise. I mean we have 2 games where Shep is "normal" it wouldn't make sense for him/her to have a sexual identity crisis.  I see no reason to change the ME series' romantic relationships in any way (no more "The Prize" like lines maybe but that's a dialogue issue not sexual identity issue).
 
Besides if you're on the PC you can mod it any way you wish. 

Modifié par ScooterPie88, 05 novembre 2010 - 06:54 .

[Wittand25]

ScooterPie88 wrote...

I think it's just a crappy idea and wouldn't be willing to compromise. Liara and Femshep don't really bother me as all Asari are "female." I just think it's political correctness gone nuts. It's unnecessary and furthermore unwanted by a majority of players. I think it was kind of screwy to do it DA and I can't speak for Jade Empire but another popular Bioware game, Knights of the Old Republic, left it out and was none the worse for it (in my opinion better because of it). I don't like my videogames having political statements in them. A theme is one thing (fighting for freedom or survival) but something so politcally charged would bother me and I feel would hurt the franchise. I mean we have 2 games where Shep is "normal" it wouldn't make sense for him/her to have a sexual identity crisis.

Addressing your statements one by one:

"political correctness gone nuts" : including same-sex romances has nothing to do with political correctness, I think you misunderstand that term.
"unwanted by a majority" : Judging by the forums here and elsewhere the vast majority does not care either way, a smaller group is for the inclusion and the opponents are the smallest group of players.
"political statement" : Nobody asks or even wants Bioware to make a statement about politics. The inclusion of s/s  content for both sexes in JE and DA:O as well as the inclusion of f/f in SW:KotoR is not a political statement and is not perceived as one and neither would the inclusion in ME3 be seen as one.
"sexual identity crisis" : The s/s romances in both DA:O and JE did not involve an identity crisis and I don't see why a s/s romance in ME3 would require one.

The option to have a s/s romance would just be an additional option for players to customise their Sheppard, for players that for one reason or another want their (fe-)male Sheppard to have a romance with another (fe-)male.

By the way I noticed how you completely ignored Kelly who is definitely not an Asari.

Modifié par Wittand25, 05 novembre 2010 - 07:08 .

[ScooterPie88]

Quething wrote...

SimonTheFrog wrote...

I agree, but with Mass Effect you skip a step there. Male Shep has noone to talk to if he's gay :/ Not even the meaningless swashbuckler. Or a male Kelly. Nothing.

Well, he was supposed to get Thane, right? Which, hey. Suave swashbuckler who you don't even have to recruit, who has no meaningful role in the Suicide Mission.

Though I admit the more I think about this the more I like Liara. I'll be honest, I was seriously not fond of that character back in the days of ME1. She's a discount lesbian and an inexperienced virgin who needs Shep to teach her about humans and relationships and the super-forgiving cheerleader who treats you like some kind of awesome saint for exhibiting basic human decency (man it squicked me when she thanked me for being "patient" with her). There was nothing about her that didn't make every feminist bone in my body scream in revolt. (Not to say she was an inherently 'bad' character, exactly, just that she was kind of a perfect storm of my personal most-hated tropes.)

Except, somehow, a couple years later and suddenly she's this deep, complex and challenging character with a profound growth arc, subtle characterization, probably the most fun, true, sexy love scene BioWare's ever written, and she's a queer character who cannot be dismissed, killed off or abused and is completely integral to the wider story and the success of the protagonist's mission. What the hell, why is she so awesome now? This is exactly the character I want! Good on you, BioWare. Now do it with some humans and some men and make it possible in every game and we'll be all set.

I wouldn't classify Liara as a "queer" That's like saying every Asari who mates with another Asari is queer but then queers can't reproduce and Asari pairs can. It's total nonsense. Their phisiology is completely different and while they have female sex characteristics it is even stated that gender has no real meaning for them. You're hijacking a game concept to make a political statement and it isn't even a logical statement at that.  Please refain from insisting that your politics be injected into my gameplay experience especially if you're not even go to be sensible about it.

[ScooterPie88]

Wittand25 wrote...

By the way I noticed how you completely ignored Kelly who is definitely not an Asari.

You're right I did forget her. Probably because it's only a half-assed romance with no actual cinematic to go with it.

You notice how most of the people that post in this thread are the same people posting over and over.  That doesn't make a majority it just means they are noisier with their opinions.

There was no s/s in KotOR (as far as I can remember it has been several years).

Also how is not a political statement.  It has everything to do with politics and therefore unecessary and unwelcome.

How would it not be a sexual identity crisis.  For 2 games (2 years in universe Shep has never had a preference for anything but the opposite sex) all the sudden he/she decides to swing the other way.  It just doen't make sense.

On second thought you're absolutely right.  Male shep should be able to walk around the Normandy wearing a cocktail dress, lipstick, eyeliner, and pantyhose.  I can just hear Uldina asking if that is the kind of man we want protecting the galaxy and Anderson replying it's the only kind of man that can protect the galaxy. Puleaze.

On customization: there has to be limits.  I may want to slaughter every NPC in every area of the game but I can't because there are limits.  I can't customize my Shep to be the worst murderer the galaxy has ever known but you don't see me making posts asking for it because it is just silly.  Without limits the game and story spiral into chaos.  If you want nearly limitless RPG customization go play Fable but please leave the ME universe in peace. 

Modifié par ScooterPie88, 05 novembre 2010 - 07:44 .

[ElitePinecone]

ScooterPie88 wrote...

There was no s/s in KotOR (as far as I can remember it has been several years).

Also how is not a political statement.  It has everything to do with politics and therefore unecessary and unwelcome.

How would it not be a sexual identity crisis.  For 2 games (2 years in universe Shep has never had a preference for anything but the opposite sex) all the sudden he/she decides to swing the other way.  It just doen't make sense.

Juhani was a romance option for both male and female characters (changed to only female characters after a patch, the original bisexuality had been an error).

Your conflation of politics and video games is unwelcome. Insisting that same-sex romance immediately becomes a political statement makes about as much sense as saying that Mass Effect's commentary on xenophobia/racism is a political statement. Or that its focus on violent/non-violent conflict resolution and morality system is an unwelcome intrusion of anti-war/pro-war politics into video games. Or that the inclusion of violent coercion through Renegade options justifies torture. That including rampant AIs brings to mind questions of sentience. That the status of the Spectres is a subtle political argument against unaccountable military interventions. I can go on, and on, and on.

All of the above are part of the video game. All of the above can be interpreted through a political perspective. Mass Effect would be extraordinarily dull without them. Yet they are political statements, or can be seen as such. By your logic, they can't be there, because they're drawing political questions from our current discourse into another medium. This is dangerously narrow-minded. 

 

[Wittand25]

ScooterPie88 wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

By the way I noticed how you completely ignored Kelly who is definitely not an Asari.

You're right I did forget her. Probably because it's only a half-assed romance with no actual cinematic to go with it.

You notice how most of the people that post in this thread are the same people posting over and over.  That doesn't make a majority it just means they are noisier with their opinions.

There was no s/s in KotOR (as far as I can remember it has been several years).

Also how is not a political statement.  It has everything to do with politics and therefore unecessary and unwelcome.

How would it not be a sexual identity crisis.  For 2 games (2 years in universe Shep has never had a preference for anything but the opposite sex) all the sudden he/she decides to swing the other way.  It just doen't make sense.

KotoR had Juhani. And really it would not be a political statement just like the inclusion of s/s content is in any other game like the Sims, Fable, the new Fallout title and others is not a political statement.
Shepard in the two games so far never is forced to show interest in the opposite sex, and even if this was the case there is such a thing as bisexuality. Regarding the numbers,like any other older threads this thread consists of only a handful of individual posters, but it is the last of several similar threads and combined with polls on this site (68% of voters for the inclusion), the size of the support group as well as sources not related to the social site it shows that the majority of players is for the inclusion as long as it remains completely optional like other romance options.

[ScooterPie88]

Wittand25 wrote...

ScooterPie88 wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

By the way I noticed how you completely ignored Kelly who is definitely not an Asari.

You're right I did forget her. Probably because it's only a half-assed romance with no actual cinematic to go with it.

You notice how most of the people that post in this thread are the same people posting over and over.  That doesn't make a majority it just means they are noisier with their opinions.

There was no s/s in KotOR (as far as I can remember it has been several years).

Also how is not a political statement.  It has everything to do with politics and therefore unecessary and unwelcome.

How would it not be a sexual identity crisis.  For 2 games (2 years in universe Shep has never had a preference for anything but the opposite sex) all the sudden he/she decides to swing the other way.  It just doen't make sense.

KotoR had Juhani. And really it would not be a political statement just like the inclusion of s/s content is in any other game like the Sims, Fable, the new Fallout title and others is not a political statement.
Shepard in the two games so far never is forced to show interest in the opposite sex, and even if this was the case there is such a thing as bisexuality. Regarding the numbers,like any other older threads this thread consists of only a handful of individual posters, but it is the last of several similar threads and combined with polls on this site (68% of voters for the inclusion), the size of the support group as well as sources not related to the social site it shows that the majority of players is for the inclusion as long as it remains completely optional like other romance options.

I'll restate my addendum because you appear to have missed it.

On second thought you're absolutely right.  Male shep should be able to walk around the Normandy wearing a cocktail dress, lipstick, eyeliner, and pantyhose.  I can just hear Uldina asking if that is the kind of man we want protecting the galaxy and Anderson replying it's the only kind of man that can protect the galaxy. Puleaze.

On customization: there has to be limits.  I may want to slaughter every NPC in every area of the game but I can't because there are limits.  I can't customize my Shep to be the worst murderer the galaxy has ever known but you don't see me making posts asking for it because it is just silly.  Without limits the game and story spiral into chaos.  If you want nearly limitless RPG customization go play Fable but please leave the ME universe in peace. 

Modifié par ScooterPie88, 05 novembre 2010 - 07:43 .