9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Chloe_W1971]

ScooterPie88 wrote...

You mean like me not being able to do what I said in a previous post. What makes what you want to do any more valid that what I want to do?

Hmm... how about the fact that between 5 and 10% of all the people you'll ever meet are gay. How many are insane serial killers?

Let's state that again: somewhere between 5% and 10%. Off the top of my head, that makes between 12000 and 24000 people in the city I live in gay. Deal with it. On average. I don't think there's a single demented serial killer that likes making skin suits on file for the last 100 or so years.

Also, your scenario calls for an insane person. Ours calls for a normal person who happens to be gay. And it's not mandatory for anyone. You want to play hetero romances? Knock yourself out. You want to play homosexual romances? Go right ahead. You want to play no romance at all? Have it your way, dude.

Modifié par Chloe_W1971, 06 novembre 2010 - 08:35 .

[SimonTheFrog]

Wittand25 wrote...

I never took Jacks statement as not meening that she is not interested in joining the sexual "girlclub" but that she is talking about the social "girlsclub" of beeing BFF with Shepard.
I found it strange that Jack actually has a ending in her dialog with FShep the others usually just leave you hanging and stopp talking with Shepard without a special ending dialog.

I know, this part is ambiguous. Both meanings are possible. But for me the social "girlsclub" makes less sense. Because, you know, there is no "club" as such. FemShep comes all the way down to talk to her and no one else is around. It would make much more sense to say "I'm not interested in a friend..." or something like that if Jack just doesn't want to get involved in social structures. With the timing and all things considered i'm pretty sure myself that this statement is meant to end any LI-attempts for femShep. 

[SimonTheFrog]

yorkj86 wrote...

SimonTheFrog wrote...

..snip...

I only asked about whether or not tough women can be heterosexual because I get the feeling from some people that they don't think they can.  I didn't mean anything by it, at least not from you.

Anyway, Jack is young.  She's 24.  Jack also tells us about Murtock.  Judging from her emotional reaction to having recall memories of him, it would seem that he meant a lot to her.  That doesn't mean that she isn't bisexual, and because we don't know the chronological order of those events I can't say anything definite, but it is possible that Jack experimented with bisexuality, and found afterward that she was, indeed, heterosexual.

Or, as we both agreed, it's possible that she's sexually bisexual, but romantically heteroromantic.

Sorry, no offense intended. 

Either way, from her background it would have been possible for the writers to come up with a jack-femshep romance. Easily... 
And the issue still stands, that femSheps don't have a chance to get to know her better just because they are not supposed to sleep with her. 

[Chloe_W1971]

yorkj86 wrote...

Without metagaming, though, how else can we explain her lack of interest in a relationship with FemShep, and with what other evidence?

I'd go with everyday experience: I'm not romantically interested in about 90% of all the women I see daily, for various reasons. One of them is that I might work with them, and workplace romance is not exactly the smartest idea. Yes, I have experience with that. No, I wouldn't do that again, ever.

Edit to add:
Or, Jack could simply not be seeking romantic relationships at all at the moment.

Modifié par Chloe_W1971, 06 novembre 2010 - 08:49 .

[Chloe_W1971]

mrsph wrote...

It always baffles me how people are so intent on telling other people how to play their Shepard. Guy/gal wants to have a S/S romance with Kaidan, Tali, or whomever? More power to them. If you don't want your Shepard to be gay/bi then you don't have to do it (which has been stated in this thread a gazillion times)

QFT

[galvarium01]

I'm all forward to seing Lesbians in this game... yay to that i say!

[SimonTheFrog]

Chloe_W1971 wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

Without metagaming, though, how else can we explain her lack of interest in a relationship with FemShep, and with what other evidence?

I'd go with everyday experience: I'm not romantically interested in about 90% of all the women I see daily, for various reasons. One of them is that I might work with them, and workplace romance is not exactly the smartest idea. Yes, I have experience with that. No, I wouldn't do that again, ever.

Edit to add:
Or, Jack could simply not be seeking romantic relationships at all at the moment.

It's really tough to not metagame, the game is making it very hard with all its nonsense . But i agree, the best explanation for each failed LI would simply be that it just didn't *click*. Even Mr. or Ms. Awesome, aka Shepard, will probably meet a few people that are NOT interested. Although, especially maleShep, does get quite a number of "offers"...
But when i played the first run through ME2 i didn't check the forums first. I was completely spoiler-free apart from a general idea what ME is about and that there will probably be LI's, being BioWare and all.
So, i took all the "hints" from Tali* as indication that she's a LI. That didn't turn out well... not-metagaming sucks <_<

* "I wish, Shepard was here", "I got better, i got you", "i never trusted anyone before..." that stuff...

[Chloe_W1971]

SimonTheFrog wrote...


It's really tough to not metagame, the game is making it very hard with all its nonsense . But i agree, the best explanation for each failed LI would simply be that it just didn't *click*. Even Mr. or Ms. Awesome, aka Shepard, will probably meet a few people that are NOT interested. Although, especially maleShep, does get quite a number of "offers"...
But when i played the first run through ME2 i didn't check the forums first. I was completely spoiler-free apart from a general idea what ME is about and that there will probably be LI's, being BioWare and all.
So, i took all the "hints" from Tali* as indication that she's a LI. That didn't turn out well... not-metagaming sucks <_<

* "I wish, Shepard was here", "I got better, i got you", "i never trusted anyone before..." that stuff...

Huh. I never play ManShep, so I didn't know about that. But given the situation from the character's perspective, I'm arguing that going against an enemy about whom very little is known apart from:
a) they are very, very powerful
they like to abduct humans
and knowing that the mission is likely one-way, and the highly realistic bit about having to get their own upgrades for their ships, plus scrounging their own weapons...

Maybe (insert character's name here) doesn't really feel that a romantic relationship with F/MShep is a priority at the time...

[SimonTheFrog]

well, the game supports the idea that "enjoying oneself while there is still time" is the right thing to do. Mordin says something to that effect.

I don't like to argue with what would be realistic in such a situation because clearly the game doesn't care about that too much. It would be like measuring water with a tape measure. It's possible but hardly makes any sense.

Anyway, as i said, if you play femShep and talk to the characters, especially Jack and Tali give you the impression they could be interested until suddenly the subject is dropped without a good explanation. (obviously because they are male LI's and the writers just branched off the female dialog at a very late point). And apart from all, this is not a good way to treat the social bonding between Shep and the crew. It's sloppy...

[Chloe_W1971]

SimonTheFrog wrote...
Anyway, as i said, if you play femShep and talk to the characters, especially Jack and Tali give you the impression they could be interested until suddenly the subject is dropped without a good explanation. (obviously because they are male LI's and the writers just branched off the female dialog at a very late point). And apart from all, this is not a good way to treat the social bonding between Shep and the crew. It's sloppy...

Oh, right. Now I see what you were getting at. Yes, that kinda bugged me, especially about Tali. For some reason, it never came up with Jack in my games, though.

But now that you mention it, Tali's "I got better. I got you." after her trial seemed to promise more than the "I've got to grease the engines" stuff that we got after that.

[Cootie]

So, basically, the new bottom line is "Gief moar platonic and romantic options," yes?

Also that same-sex relationships are much wanted. And I see no problems with this, whatsoever. Science Fiction was always about pushing the boundaries and reflecting humanity while being exciting and food for thought.

[Elite Midget]

Well, Ashley was supposed to be a Bi option... Maybe Ashley/Kaiden will be a Bi option in ME3.

[vhatever]

Chloe_W1971 wrote...

ScooterPie88 wrote...

You mean like me not being able to do what I said in a previous post. What makes what you want to do any more valid that what I want to do?

Hmm... how about the fact that between 5 and 10% of all the people you'll ever meet are gay. How many are insane serial killers?

You are stating an oft-repeated myth by gay-agenda pushers. Randomized studies/samples have shown that only 1-3% of people are explicitly gay, in the USA anyway. Many other countries have below 1%.

The main problem with all these gay inclusion requests is there are only a finite amount of man hours that go into a game before it is released. If I'm seeing a host of gay-related content while there are any signigicant gameplay/bug/etc. issues in the game, I'm going to be pretty annoyed. I can't even reliable use the shift-pause the PC without risking the game crashing. And if bioware wants to prioritize gay romances/content for a tiny fraction of the public while i have to deal with bugs like that, I'll be taking my money elsewhere.

[Wittand25]

vhatever wrote...
The main problem with all these gay inclusion requests is there are only a finite amount of man hours that go into a game before it is released. If I'm seeing a host of gay-related content while there are any signigicant gameplay/bug/etc. issues in the game, I'm going to be pretty annoyed. I can't even reliable use the shift-pause the PC without risking the game crashing. And if bioware wants to prioritize gay romances/content for a tiny fraction of the public while i have to deal with bugs like that, I'll be taking my money elsewhere.

There is quite a difference between including a romance that consists of two to three conversations and maybe one or two extra cutscenes and gameplay and stability programming. For example the main work for the romances is done by the writers and cinematic programmers and both have little if anything to do with the stability of the game. While the stability,gameplay and bugfixing is more important than any romance or other optional content, they do not compete for the same resources. Offering six romances the way it was done in DA:O (one straight and one bisexual LI for both sexes) even saves resources compared to the way it was handled in ME2.

Also the audience for an m/m romance (why do opposeres always ignore f/f ?) does not consist only of homosexual men but also bisexual men and others (quite a lot of straight women and some straight men for various reasons). There is a post by a DA writer saying that the number of times the MWarden/Zevran romance was persued is surprisingly high in the DA2 forums.

[vhatever]

Wittand25 wrote...

There is quite a difference between including a romance that consists of two to three conversations and maybe one or two extra cutscenes and gameplay and stability programming. For example the main work for the romances is done by the writers and cinematic programmers and both have little if anything to do with the stability of the game. While the stability,gameplay and bugfixing is more important than any romance or other optional content, they do not compete for the same resources. Offering six romances the way it was done in DA:O (one straight and one bisexual LI for both sexes) even saves resources compared to the way it was handled in ME2.

You are simply wrong in your assumptions here. At the end of the day, it all comes down to how much money bioware wants to invest in any aspect of their game. The artists who work on ME also work on other projects, too. They don't turn into magical toads and wander off into the forest when they aren't designing something related to ME. They get paid for the time, just like everyone else who works on the game.

Also the audience for an m/m romance (why do opposeres always ignore f/f ?) does not consist only of homosexual men but also bisexual men and others (quite a lot of straight women and some straight men for various reasons). There is a post by a DA writer saying that the number of times the MWarden/Zevran romance was persued is surprisingly high in the DA2 forums.

They want to see all the content they paid for. Hardly puzzling or pertinent.

[Wittand25]

vhatever wrote...


You are simply wrong in your assumptions here. At the end of the day, it all comes down to how much money bioware wants to invest in any aspect of their game. The artists who work on ME also work on other projects, too. They don't turn into magical toads and wander off into the forest when they aren't designing something related to ME. They get paid for the time, just like everyone else who works on the game.

Time the writers spend does not affect the quality control and vice versa. You brought up that bugfixing is more important than (m/m) romances. I pointed out that there is little to no overlap between those issues. The resources for an s/s romance would come from the word and animation budget and not from the bugfixing budget.

They want to see all the content they paid for. Hardly puzzling or pertinent.

Thank you for agreeing that a lot of people would pursue s/s romances and that they are therefore a wise investment.

[vhatever]

Wittand25 wrote...

Time the writers spend does not affect the quality control and vice versa. You brought up that bugfixing is more important than (m/m) romances. I pointed out that there is little to no overlap between those issues. The resources for an s/s romance would come from the word and animation budget and not from the bugfixing budget.

Repeating a lie doesn't make it true, no matter how many times. Much like the bogus 10% claim, reality is something quite different. The total amount of cash to spend on developing a game is set by the beancounters, and the departments that work together to make a game work within the confines of the money allocated-- they all dip their chips in the same salsa. It's called a budget. All games have release deadlines and budgets.

Wittand25 wrote...
Thank you for agreeing that a lot of people would pursue s/s romances and that they are therefore a wise investment.

No, a wise investment would that which the majority of players want/like, and the majority would rather have some other content added rather than gay LIs/characters. If the majority of players wanted gay characters/LI/etc., then we wouldnt be getting so much DLC that's more weapons/armor/etc.

Modifié par vhatever, 15 novembre 2010 - 10:11 .

[Doveberry]

I'm no expert on the subject, but after some research, the most honest estimate I've been able to find seems to suggest that about 1.5-2% of women and 3-4% of men are homosexual or bisexual, at least in countries that take note of such things. If there is a difference between countries, then that it likely because of cultural pressure, and not because fewer homosexual people happen to be born in any specific location.

Looking at these numbers, I find the fact that the male shepard gets no same sex love to be even more odd, since statistically, it is likely that there are more male homosexual gamers than female ones (especially considering the fact that there still tends to be more male gamers than female ones overall). I'm not saying one should be given priority over the other. I just wish that both genders should be given the same level of attention.

Ideally, same sex relationships could be added as DLC for ME2. That way those who do not want it can avoid it, and those who do want it will finally have a chance for a relationship that can potentially span both ME2 and ME3.

And though my female character's heart is set on Kaidan, I feel that a game that relies so much on choice would feel much more complete with romance options for everyone, even though I'm not likely to see all of the content myself. And I would happily sacrifice other content, of the kind that I am personally likely to see, just to see that happen.

Modifié par Doveberry, 15 novembre 2010 - 10:30 .

[Wittand25]

vhatever wrote...

Repeating a lie doesn't make it true, no matter how many times. Much like the bogus 10% claim, reality is something quite different. The total amount of cash to spend on developing a game is set by the beancounters, and the departments that work together to make a game work within the confines of the money allocated-- they all dip their chips in the same salsa. It's called a budget. All games have release deadlines and budgets.

What lie? Like with any other project this size, the budget gets allocated to various departments like dialog, animation, gameplay, quality control ... . A romance does draw from the associated deparmtents, mainly dialog, animation and disk space and does not use any resources from quality control. If you read the Dev posts here on the social site you will find developers mentioning things like word budget, animation budget and so on.

No, a wise investment would that which the majority of players want/like, and the majority would rather have some other content added rather than gay LIs/characters. If the majority of players wanted gay characters/LI/etc., then we wouldnt be getting so much DLC that's more weapons/armor/etc.

You yourself stated that many players played the Zevran/MWarden romance just to see everything (I think you are wrong here, but that is another topic) so many players experienced the content. If we go by majority every class but the soldier and FShep should not be included in ME3 because according to player behaviour the majority does not want them and I am pretty sure that they use up more resources than any romance. The problem with "The Majority" you see is that it is made up from lots of minorities and if you cut everything that is only important to a minority you end up with an empty game box.
By the way the weapon and armor DLC seems to have slowed down and the most anticipated and laudated DLC was the one that let you continue the f/f romance from ME1.

[ok go]

Doveberry wrote...

I'm no expert on the subject, but after some research, the most honest estimate I've been able to find seems to suggest that about 1.5-2% of women and 3-4% of men are homosexual or bisexual, at least in countries that take note of such things. If there is a difference between countries, then that it likely because of cultural pressure, and not because fewer homosexual people happen to be born in any specific location.

Looking at these numbers, I find the fact that the male shepard gets no same sex love to be even more odd, since statistically, it is likely that there are more male homosexual gamers than female ones (especially considering the fact that there still tends to be more male gamers than female ones overall). I'm not saying one should be given priority over the other. I just wish that both genders should be given the same level of attention.

Ideally, same sex relationships could be added as DLC for ME2. That way those who do not want it can avoid it, and those who do want it will finally have a chance for a relationship that can potentially span both ME2 and ME3.

And though my female character's heart is set on Kaidan, I feel that a game that relies so much on choice would feel much more complete with romance options for everyone, even though I'm not likely to see all of the content myself. And I would happily sacrifice other content, of the kind that I am personally likely to see, just to see that happen.

well alot of straigh males do the f/f content, like me, i cant bring myself to romance a dood, so all my female charaters are lesbians.

i try to avoid these threads but sometimes i feel people feel bioware is obligated to put their prefered romance in a game (straight or gay).  to me romance wasnt a big deal in ME and ME2.  the romance was 1/2 lines and done, so i was more into shooting **** up then romancing.

[Doveberry]

ok go wrote...
well alot of straigh males do the f/f content, like me, i cant bring myself to romance a dood, so all my female charaters are lesbians.

i try to avoid these threads but sometimes i feel people feel bioware is obligated to put their prefered romance in a game (straight or gay). to me romance wasnt a big deal in ME and ME2. the romance was 1/2 lines and done, so i was more into shooting **** up then romancing.

Since you quoted me, I'll assume that your post was directed at me as well. When or how did I say that I felt that Bioware are obliged to put my preferred romance in the game? I only voiced my personal opinion, which is that since they have f/f romances, it seems only natural to give the m/m people some love as well. These games are so incredible that it makes me a bit sad that a portion of gamers will never be able to enjoy all aspects of them. I am not homosexual myself. Nor am I a man. (Though an m/m romance might just be the thing that could help me stand a male shep playthrough. That horrible, dead voice...) That does not stop me from seeing the value of making m/m and f/f (in addition to Liara) romances available. I have never said that I demand this, only that it is something that I would love to see in the game.

And if your actual argument is that f/f the only thing that's useful since it is something that straight men would find fun, then I must say that I actually find that suggestion a little insulting, as a female gamer.

Modifié par Doveberry, 15 novembre 2010 - 12:06 .

[vhatever]

Doveberry wrote...


And if your actual argument is that f/f the only thing that's useful since it is something that straight men would find fun, then I must say that I actually find that suggestion a little insulting, as a female gamer.

No, he was simply saying that was the reason you will see more F/F relationships. It's all supply versus demand, nothing more, and the reality that bioware cannot include everything for everyone.

[ElitePinecone]

vhatever wrote...
 It's all supply versus demand, nothing more, and the reality that bioware cannot include everything for everyone.

I'd like to quote David Gaider, senior writer for Bioware - he has both eloquence and authority: (the whole post is here: linky)

David Gaider wrote...

Romance options are just that-- optional. They're an extra part of the game and not really central to its purpose. Perhaps you think they should be, but that's beside the point. They're not. Being an option means that they're essentially a luxury, and while people may argue as to exactly who's luxury they get to be they don't go beyond that. They're not a right, and treating them like one is taking it a step too far. We put in content as we can afford it, based on the size of the audience that content is likely to be used by-- not according to what's "fair".

This comes with a few caveats, however:

1) We'll always put in content for smaller portions of the audience, whenever we can. In essence, anything that's available as an optional choice only applies to a smaller portion of the audience and really it's just a matter of degrees. If we only put in content that 100% of the audience would see then you would have no choices at all. That's not really what we're about, even if we do have to be realistic.

2) You don't get to argue that an option you don't like and don't intend to use shouldn't exist at all, for anyone. Sorry, but our only concern here is that there are people who will like it. If you don't, then opt not to use it. That's why it's a choice.

3) Persuant to the above, beware of majority privilege. It's very easy for people who don't have an issue that the minority feel (and this applies to race and gender-- in gaming, particularly-- as well as to sexual orientation) to believe that something is "not a problem". "I don't see why you're so uptight about it!" Realize when you make these sorts of comments that you have no idea what you're talking about, for all our sakes. You don't know what it feels like to be marginalized, and it behooves those in the majority to use at least a modicum of sensitivity when it comes to addressing such issues. No, games aren't a platform for social change, but that doesn't mean we are also absent of responsibility when we include content in our games where such issues can arise. If we were to claim "majority privilege" as our only guide, we do nothing but add to the problem. That said, we do face other limitations-- not least of which, as I said, is that this isn't the point of the game and thus is only ever going to get limited resources.

Insofar as the male-male romance content goes specifically, there's no evidence to suggest it affected sales in the slightest. In fact, our own telemetry shows that the content was used by more players than most people would assume (you can draw your own conclusions from that). If the only objection someone can muster is "it makes me uncomfortable" then there's not too much to say-- there's lots of things in a Mature-rated game that could potentially make someone uncomfortable, some of them not even optional. That's the risk you take, I guess, when you play something that is not, by design, intended to be inoffensive to all. Trying to object from an economic standpoint, however, really doesn't wash.