9243 réponses à ce sujet

[BiancoAngelo7]

LiquidGrape wrote...

Sorry, Bianco, but that doesn't add up.

BiancoAngelo7 wrote...
This is just not gonna happen. The devs have already stated quite clearly that they have different narrative structure in place when comparing Dragon Age and ME. In ME Shepard has a more structured character archetype, and that's not going to change. Sure they let you make choices and affect the outcome of the story and how it progresses, but that doesn't mean that they will let you change who the main character IS.

The developers claim that Shepard is predefined as a character, but it doesn't stop the female incarnation from engaging in bisexual relationships. How do you explain that?
Of course, we all know why female characters are allowed to pursue that orientation (if unsatisfyingly so) whereas the male counterpart is not. But it doesn't excuse BioWare. It's a rather disgraceful omission.

Asking for gay romance options for shepard is essentially asking the devs to allow us to let Shep have a mid life crisis and abandon his life of combat and adventure to take up horticulture with Liara on a remote world.

Say what now?

Imagine if instead of ME, Bioware had made the next bond game, with the same gameplay mechanics and personalized story that ME has.

Would you expect to be able to make Bond have a gay relationship? No. Because that's not who the character is, regardless of what you would like for him to be, he is Bond. Just like Shepard is Shepard.

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Bond, as often portraid in the films, is a static, whereas Shepard evidently is not. We are always being told that we are shaping "our Shepard's story". There is no canon. There is no "true" version. But I've already covered that what BioWare says is very different from what BioWare does. Apparently.
And for that matter, why couldn't Bond be rendered a bisexual/gay character? Artistic license grants us that freedom. It would make for more interesting films, that's for sure.

Also, personally I kinda mentally blocked out the gay sexual advances I got in Dragon Age, not having to deal with that in ME is a big relief. Especially because for some reason in Dragon Age it kinda broke the game immersion element for me somehow, kind of like "why did I get hit on by a gay elf? Oh yeah, they did that to leave options open to all types of characters"

Your issue, not anyone elses.

And he shouldn't, cuz if he did, then Bioware will essentially be making the same mistake it did with its love scenes, reduce the quality (read: not nudity) of the scene because of external hissy fits that people and the media throws.

Actually, the only hissy fit was that of Fox'. And their alleged "expert" later apologised for not even having seen the scene they were discussing.
The point being, nobody expects anything more of Fox. It's a bigoted, ignorant network which values hyperbole over facts. No sane person takes them seriously, and I doubt BioWare even flinched at that particular episode.
You're allowed to romance non-humans in Mass Effect 2. Don't you think everyone would concede that something like that is a fair bit stranger than homosexuality?

Like I said, it would be like making Bond gay out of the blue.

No. No it wouldn't. Shepard's sexuality has at no point been set in stone. There is no evidence that you can claim otherwise.

Your first point:

Just because the female Shepard is open to having a realtionship with another female doesn't mean that Male Shep is automatically open to being gay as well. They are two characters, distinct and seperate, the devs have already said this. Just because you want Male shep to be gay and just because you can play as both characters does not mean what is true for female shep is true for male shep. Also, there is no "disgrace" in any "omission" by Bioware. They did not put this in the game INTENTIONALLY and they sure as hell shouldn't feel "disgraced" by that decision just because you don't agree with it.

Your second point:

Im sorry you got lost when I made the analogy. The example I made of Shep abandoning his military career is tantamount to him fighting for the reapers all of a sudden. Not only would it have no coherence with the established story, it would be random and unexplained as related to the character of Shep.

Your third point:

You say that my example of Bond makes no sense because you don't want it to make sense. But just like Bond, Shep is a character, not a story. You continue to make the mistake of confusing the adaptive and dynamic STORY of Shepard with the actual CHARACTER of Shepard. Again, I can understand that being passionate about a certain issue may lead to a mistake like that, but it's still a fallacy. At the end of this point, you even try to convince others (yourself?) that since you prefer gay relationships that having a gay Bond would somehow improve and better the Bond franchise. If you cannot see the bias and unfounded nature of that assertion then I doubt we will be able to proceed further in a logical and civil manner. Not to mention that you speak of artistic license as if it belonged ot the public. Saying "Artistic license grants us that freedom. It would make for more interesting films, that's for sure." First of all, artistic license belongs to the artists, (shocking I know) and what gives you the presumption to be "sure" that it would make for more interesting films?

They may make for more interesting films for you, but that would be like me complaining about an established gay character and how he cannot have a hetero romance so that makes it a "disgraceful ommission" and it must be changed, because surely then it would make the game/movie/whatever much better.



Your fourth point:

There was no need to quote my personal reaction as I myself wrote that it was just the personal reaction I had and had no bearing on the actual reason why Shep can't/shouldn't be gay. The fact that you quoted this anyway just further shows that you may be too close to this topic to discuss it with a clear head.

Your fifth point:

I don't know why, but you completely changed the subject of what I was addressing. Again, you seem to be fixated on defending your view, shifting a logical point I made to something unrelated. No where did I say that having a gay romance would be stranger than having a romance with an alien. Where did you even get that?? All I said was that in ME2 the structure and cinematic quality (again read: not nudity level) of the love scenes was downgraded by a significant degree. Wether or not this was caused by fox, the forums, or the various media outlets, the devs decision alone or the alignments of the planets I don't know. I was simply saying that trying to make the devs nclude/change something about the game just because of cultural societal factors like being politically correct to gay video game players will only result in something that was not part of the original creative vision of the artists, therefore regardless of whether you are gay or not, it will be a sub par element of the game qualitatively speaking.

Your last point:

Saying that Shepard's sexuality has not been set in stone and that there is no evidence to the contrary is quite disingenuous of you. Like I said, I understand that you wish to be right at least here in the forums, to give you the satisfaction you will not have in game, but that doesn't change the fact that this is essentially equal to closing your eyes and saying "there is absolutely no proof that the Sun is up today because I cannot see it".

We now have two full games in the ME franchise where Male Shep has not once, even once been able/willing/inclined w/e to pursue a gay relationship. If you were to have said before ME1 came out, there is no proof that Shepard is not gay, then I would have agreed with you, and waited to see if he were in fact open to gay patners.

However, now that we have played ME1, we have played ME2, we have had comics and dev interviews and countless other sources establishing either directly or indirectly that Shep is NOT gay, what exactly would be proof for you that he is not gay? The only thing that has not been done is Shep literally flat out saying "Im not gay" in game.

In conclusion, again it sounds like you are dissatisfied with the lack of a gay option (which is your right) but then you take that personal dissatisfaction and try to blur the lines between a set character ARCHETYPE and an unset character's STORY. Basic and only point to make regardless of anything that has been said:

If I make a character and tell you out of game, show you in game and write on the forums that he is not gay, you cannot then try and cry wolf that the game company, the media, anyone who doesnt want a gay option and their grandparents are evil and denying you your "right" to have a ay option.

Just like I or anyone else could not if Shepard had started off as a gay character.

Modifié par BiancoAngelo7, 16 décembre 2010 - 03:52 .

[Pacifien]

You know, a character doesn't really have to be defined by his sexuality. He doesn't have to bring sexual innuendo into every conversation. Doesn't have to throw in feeders to see if another guy is interested. He could simply not be interested in pursuing a romantic relationship until the Reapers are on his very doorstep and he has an epiphany that leads him to grab Big Ben Sniper Guy and kiss him passionately before it's all over.

People complain that Shepard is a wooden plank in the games, but the reason why is because it allows great leeway for someone to roleplay the character, filling in the blanks that are never explicitly covered within the game. If you roleplayed Shepard as having no romantic interest in the first two games, it's perfectly reasonable he would be "suddenly" gay in the third game. That is fair.

If you did roleplay Shepard as some hopeless romantic in need of companionship in the first two games, then maybe his sudden turn of interest from the ladies to the men might seem odd. That is the way you chose to roleplay it. There is no wrong way to roleplay.

[Inquisitor Recon]

LiquidGrape wrote: "The point being, nobody expects anything more of Fox. It's a bigoted,
ignorant network which values hyperbole over facts. No sane person takes
them seriously."

I'm going to ignore everything else because no amount of reason in the world could convince you guys this is a bad idea, but I couldn't ignore this. Bigoted, ignorant network? And CNN and MSNBC are what exactly?

[BiancoAngelo7]

ReconTeam wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote: "The point being, nobody expects anything more of Fox. It's a bigoted,
ignorant network which values hyperbole over facts. No sane person takes
them seriously."

I'm going to ignore everything else because no amount of reason in the world could convince you guys this is a bad idea, but I couldn't ignore this. Bigoted, ignorant network? And CNN and MSNBC are what exactly?

The only "real" news channel in America and as pure as new born kittens. Well, at leas thats what they keep saying...

in my experience it goes something like this:

Fox: Obama rapes puppies!!

CNN: Fox is evil and wants to control you because they are taking our ratings!!!

MSNBC: Obama saved a puppy orphanage and cured world hunger before lunch today!

So yeah, kinda have to sift through the shi* and figure stuff out for yourself.

[Pacifien]

This topic is for discussing same-sex relationships in the Mass Effect series. I see any other comment about anything not related to this, you will find yourself unable to pursue the discussion further.

[BiancoAngelo7]

Pacifien wrote...

You know, a character doesn't really have to be defined by his sexuality. He doesn't have to bring sexual innuendo into every conversation. Doesn't have to throw in feeders to see if another guy is interested. He could simply not be interested in pursuing a romantic relationship until the Reapers are on his very doorstep and he has an epiphany that leads him to grab Big Ben Sniper Guy and kiss him passionately before it's all over.
People complain that Shepard is a wooden plank in the games, but the reason why is because it allows great leeway for someone to roleplay the character, filling in the blanks that are never explicitly covered within the game. If you roleplayed Shepard as having no romantic interest in the first two games, it's perfectly reasonable he would be "suddenly" gay in the third game. That is fair.
If you did roleplay Shepard as some hopeless romantic in need of companionship in the first two games, then maybe his sudden turn of interest from the ladies to the men might seem odd. That is the way you chose to roleplay it. There is no wrong way to roleplay.

Huh, I never thought of it that way. I guess with a game like ME one can never quite think of all the possibilities lol. Although it is possible it would still seem really just kinda "off" with the Shepard character to me.

[Wittand25]

@BiancoAngelo

Because my last response was pretty badly written ( that should teach me not to write something when I don´t have sufficient time) and you seem to draw offense from LiquidGrape´s answer to you I will try to address your points again:

1.)FShep and MShep share practically every line of dialog and every animation. To say that the two of them are different persons is silly sorry there is no better word for it.

2.) I still fail to see how that has anything to do with an optional m/m-romance for MSheppard.

3.)Sheppard is not a character even Bioware marketing disagrees with you there (unless they are trying to defend the lack of m/m content). The player is able to choose Sheppard´s sex/appearance/abilities/service history and behavior in the present so Sheppard is not predefined in any way that would make a m/m romance out of character. Bond on the other hand is a character out of novels and as such independent of the readers so such a comparison just does not hold true.

4.) If you do not want others to comment on your personal reactions it would be good advise not to present them here as reasons for the inclusion/exclusion of content.

5.) There was neither a hissy fit over the scenes in DA:O or the ones in ME2 why should Bioware expect one in ME3? And even if they expect one why should they not think "Free marketing, great" considering if anything the ME1-Fox incident boosted sales.

6.) So by your logic if a gay man is surrounded by straight men he becomes straight because he cannot have sex ? More on topic at no point not a single time was MShep forced to express interest in a female either or to express disinterest in a male. Frankly considering non-import Sheppard somehow managed to keep both Liara and Ashley from his pants ( I needed an atomic bomb to achieve that) and non import Sheppard in ME3 will also have been able to dodge all four women throwing themselves at him in ME2 I would rather doubt his heterosexuality than claiming that he cannot be gay.

[LiquidGrape]

[quote]BiancoAngelo7 wrote...

Your first point:

Just because the female Shepard is open to having a realtionship with another female doesn't mean that Male Shep is automatically open to being gay as well. They are two characters, distinct and seperate, the devs have already said this. Just because you want Male shep to be gay and just because you can play as both characters does not mean what is true for female shep is true for male shep. Also, there is no "disgrace" in any "omission" by Bioware. They did not put this in the game INTENTIONALLY and they sure as hell shouldn't feel "disgraced" by that decision just because you don't agree with it.
[/quote]

I would be very interested if you could provide me with some specific mention of that the male and female incarnations of Shepard are somehow completely separate characters. I have no recollection of any such statement, but please, prove me wrong.
As for disgrace, I would say that it is, seeing as one demographic is completely left out for no discernable reason. Whether this was a conscious decision or not is irrelevant. It's embarrassing either way.

[quote]
Your second point:

Im sorry you got lost when I made the analogy. The example I made of Shep abandoning his military career is tantamount to him fighting for the reapers all of a sudden. Not only would it have no coherence with the established story, it would be random and unexplained as related to the character of Shep.
[/quote]

But that's still a matter of perspective. You maintain that Shepard, as such, is a clearly cut character. I maintain that he/she is not.
Also, you seem to consider sexuality a much more impactful aspect of a person than I would say it is. The analogy is a bit overstated.

[quote]
Your third point:

You say that my example of Bond makes no sense because you don't want it to make sense. But just like Bond, Shep is a character, not a story. You continue to make the mistake of confusing the adaptive and dynamic STORY of Shepard with the actual CHARACTER of Shepard.
[/quote]

...a character none of us is at liberty to define. What I'm saying is that there's still an ambiguity there. You say there is none.

[quote]
Again, I can understand that being passionate about a certain issue may lead to a mistake like that, but it's still a fallacy. At the end of this point, you even try to convince others (yourself?) that since you prefer gay relationships that having a gay Bond would somehow improve and better the Bond franchise. If you cannot see the bias and unfounded nature of that assertion then I
doubt we will be able to proceed further in a logical and civil manner.
[/quote]

Better? I never said anything about "better". I said more interesting. Wouldn't you say it would be interesting to see Bond make a pass at someone other than the token Bond girl? But regardless, it was a throwaway gag. It wasn't really intended to be part of the argument.

[quote]
Not to mention that you speak of artistic license as if it belonged ot the public. Saying "Artistic license grants us that freedom. It would make for more interesting films, that's for sure." First of all, artistic license belongs to the artists, (shocking I know) [/quote]

I was referring to the freedom any given filmmaker would have to make a new interpretation of Bond. I doubt any studio would ever agree to it, I'm just saying it's an artistic possibility. Shocking, I know.

[quote]
[...]and what gives you the presumption to be "sure" that it would make for more interesting films? [/quote]

See above.

[quote]
They may make for more interesting films for you, but that would be like me complaining about an established gay character and how he cannot have a hetero romance so that makes it a "disgraceful ommission" and it must be changed, because surely then it would make the game/movie/whatever much better.
[/quote]

And we're back to the issue of Shepard being a determined "character" or not. I know what BioWare has stated, but I also know it doesn't add up. Unless you can find me a source which says that the male and female Shepard are different characters altogether.

[quote]
Your fourth point:

There was no need to quote my personal reaction as I myself wrote that it was just the personal reaction I had and had no bearing on the actual reason why Shep can't/shouldn't be gay. The fact that you quoted this anyway just further shows that you may be too close to this topic to discuss it with a clear head.
[/quote]

Well, the way you wrote it, it almost seemed as if you intended to use it as part of your argument. My mistake if I interpreted it wrongly. Sorry.

[quote]
Your fifth point:

I don't know why, but you completely changed the subject of what I was addressing. Again, you seem to be fixated on defending your view, shifting a logical point I made to something unrelated. No where did I say that having a gay romance would be stranger than having a romance with an alien. Where did you even get that?? [/quote]

I know I made a poor job of making that point, but what I was attempting to get at was that Fox, in their positively inspired condemnation of the game, made no mention of the possibility to become romantically involved with a non-human. That was nothing but a jab at the absurd sexual politics of Fox, so you're right that it had nothing to do with this exchange. My bad.

[quote]
All I said was that in ME2 the structure and cinematic quality (again read: not nudity level) of the love scenes was downgraded by a significant degree. Wether or not this was caused by fox, the forums, or the various media outlets, the devs decision alone or the alignments of the planets I don't know. I was simply saying that trying to make the devs nclude/change something about the game just because of cultural societal factors like being politically correct to gay video game players will only result in something that was not part of the original creative vision of the artists, therefore regardless of whether you are gay or not, it will be a sub par element of the game qualitatively speaking.
[/quote]

But, as everything both of us have said so far, this is only speculation. We don't know that it would change anything. Prior to the release of Mass Effect, a romance between Shep and Kaidan seemed to be close to completion. (there are YouTube videos showcasing people who've found the dedicated animations and dialogue)
So perhaps it was originally part of the creative vision. Only someone other than the artists stepped in.
Either way, I honestly doubt it would harm the overall quality of the game. It's a talented team, at this stage they are familiar with the tools, and the success of Dragon Age proves that S/S content doesn't give people incentive to avoid the product.

[quote]
Your last point:

Saying that Shepard's sexuality has not been set in stone and that there is no evidence to the contrary is quite disingenuous of you. Like I said, I understand that you wish to be right at least here in the forums, to give you the satisfaction you will not have in game, but that doesn't change the fact that this is essentially equal to closing your eyes and saying "there is absolutely no proof that the Sun is up today because I cannot see it".
[/quote]

Again, your analogy is overstated. I know the sun is up if I close my eyes. I don't know a character's sexuality simply because I haven't seen it displayed.

[quote]
We now have two full games in the ME franchise where Male Shep has not once, even once been able/willing/inclined w/e to pursue a gay relationship. If you were to have said before ME1 came out, there is no proof that Shepard is not gay, then I would have agreed with you, and waited to see if he were in fact open to gay patners.

However, now that we have played ME1, we have played ME2, we have had comics and dev interviews and countless other sources establishing either directly or indirectly that Shep is NOT gay, what exactly would be proof for you that he is not gay? The only thing that has not been done is Shep literally flat out saying "Im not gay" in game.
[/quote]

Considering the inconsistencies of BioWare's statements regarding Shepard, I'm not sure there's any given definition which is completely satisfactory. It's true there haven't been any options yet, but that doesn't stop anyone from roleplaying a gay Shepard who remains single. That's the catch. One day we are told Shepard is predetermined, the next we are told we are free to create our own individual Shepard. I see what you mean about the difference between character and story, but it's predominantly character which BioWare's statements have concerned themselves with.

[quote]
In conclusion, again it sounds like you are dissatisfied with the lack of a gay option (which is your right) but then you take that personal dissatisfaction and try to blur the lines between a set character ARCHETYPE and an unset character's STORY. Basic and only point to make regardless of anything that has been said:

If I make a character and tell you out of game, show you in game and write on the forums that he is not gay, you cannot then try and cry wolf that the game company, the media, anyone who doesnt want a gay option and their grandparents are evil and denying you your "right" to have a ay option.

Just like I or anyone else could not if Shepard had started off as a gay character.
[/quote]

Did I ever condemn anyone as "evil"? I said BioWare has been more than a little cowardly, yes, but I don't doubt that they have all the best intentions. That is why this is such a great disappointment.
I'm not making demands either. I'm simply addressing, what I consider to be, a worthwhile subject.
I think you're right in that we won't make any headway as regards to Shepard (unless you can provide me with the source I mentioned) so I suppose we can only leave it at that impasse:

You say Shepard is an individual fully rounded and accounted for. I say Shepard is not.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 16 décembre 2010 - 04:52 .

[ScotOfClanDonald]

BiancoAngelo7 wrote...

Huh, I never thought of it that way. I guess with a game like ME one can never quite think of all the possibilities lol. Although it is possible it would still seem really just kinda "off" with the Shepard character to me.

Why?  Honestly, I know people who played through ME without pursuing any love interest because there wasn't one that suited them.  For THAT Shepard, it might be perfectly in-character to avoid romantic entanglements altogether, OR it might just be that no gay or bisexual male character was available. 

When you're saying that it would be "off" for Shepard... you're kinda implying that gay people are a "certain way," when that's often not the case.  Look at Arcade Gannon in Fallout: New Vegas.  Sure, he's gay, but he's not exactly flaming, and he can be a beast with tesla armor and a plasma machine gun by the end, depending on how you play him.

I know gay men in real life that betray no hint of their sexuality until you see them in a social/dating environment.  For all we know, Shepard could be a total leather daddy notorious at the boy-brothels of Omega after ME2, wouldn't change how much of a badass he is, or his ethical Paragon/Renegade choices, or anything like that.

People have to get over the idea that "gay" equals anything other than "a dude attracted to other dudes."  Seriously.  That's all it says.  You'd think that, in the twenty-third century, people wouldn't care about that sort of thing.

[BiancoAngelo7]

ScotOfClanDonald wrote...

BiancoAngelo7 wrote...

Huh, I never thought of it that way. I guess with a game like ME one can never quite think of all the possibilities lol. Although it is possible it would still seem really just kinda "off" with the Shepard character to me.

Why?  Honestly, I know people who played through ME without pursuing any love interest because there wasn't one that suited them.  For THAT Shepard, it might be perfectly in-character to avoid romantic entanglements altogether, OR it might just be that no gay or bisexual male character was available. 

When you're saying that it would be "off" for Shepard... you're kinda implying that gay people are a "certain way," when that's often not the case.  Look at Arcade Gannon in Fallout: New Vegas.  Sure, he's gay, but he's not exactly flaming, and he can be a beast with tesla armor and a plasma machine gun by the end, depending on how you play him.

I know gay men in real life that betray no hint of their sexuality until you see them in a social/dating environment.  For all we know, Shepard could be a total leather daddy notorious at the boy-brothels of Omega after ME2, wouldn't change how much of a badass he is, or his ethical Paragon/Renegade choices, or anything like that.

People have to get over the idea that "gay" equals anything other than "a dude attracted to other dudes."  Seriously.  That's all it says.  You'd think that, in the twenty-third century, people wouldn't care about that sort of thing.

OMG. Look I understand that people who are either gay or bisexual have to put up with a lot of crap in today's world and this leads to some "over-defensiveness" if you can call it that. But it was never my intention to say that being gay is "off" just that for me personally it would make the Shep character feel wrong for the story, just as I'm sure the Shep character never feels quite all there for everyone else who would like a gay romance option.

To Wittand and LiquidGrape: While Im personally glad that I don't have to deal with this in game, I'm also very sorry that you are missing something that makes the game feel unfair or incomplete for you. I say that with the utmost sincerity, believe me, as I myself found things missing in ME2 that made me feel at times as if the game was made by a different company, or not even a sequel to ME1.

Having said this however, I'm sory to say that many of your answers boil down to "I choose not to see it that way". Which is completely fine, and your prerogative, but provides for very frustrating discussions. Not to mention quoting only parts of what I say or misunderstanding thinking I'm trying to offend or I myself feel offended (not sure for what though Wittand).

So I guess all thats left to say is that I hope the good people at Bioware come up with some sort of solution for ME3 that would allow both of our tastes and needs to be satisfied, and I wish you luck and the most enjoyment possible for ME3.

P.S.- I don't know if this would be P.C. or even possible, but maybe a possible solution that would allow both groups of players to be happy would be to somehow ask the player flat out at the start of the game whether they are interested in same sex romances, that way with a simple no all players who don't want it in the game wouldn't have to deal with it, and anyone who wants it could activate the content through a simple yes.

Kind of like what Modern Warfare 2 did with the Russian Airport scene (you have to kill a bunch of civies, so they ask you before hand if you want to skip that mission)

If they somehow managed to work that option into the game in a non lame way like even a simple quick click yes or no dialogue box before the start of the game then I think a lot of people would be happy at the inclusion, and a lot of people like me would be happy not to have to deal with that. (Nothing against being gay, but you can't begrudge me if I don't want to deal with it:))

Then the only other issue would be an internal one of "can we do it" as far as resources, time, money, magic pixie dust etc is concerned.

[ScotOfClanDonald]

BiancoAngelo7 wrote...

Having said this however, I'm sory to say that many of your answers boil down to "I choose not to see it that way". Which is completely fine, and your prerogative, but provides for very frustrating discussions. Not to mention quoting only parts of what I say or misunderstanding thinking I'm trying to offend or I myself feel offended (not sure for what though Wittand).

You're kinda pot/kettling here, as your answers, whether you mean them to or not, are boiling down to "It's not right for me and I don't want to see it or deal with it in any way, shape or form."

P.S.- I don't know if this would be P.C. or even possible, but maybe a possible solution that would allow both groups of players to be happy would be to somehow ask the player flat out at the start of the game whether they are interested in same sex romances, that way with a simple no all players who don't want it in the game wouldn't have to deal with it, and anyone who wants it could activate the content through a simple yes.

[snip]

If they somehow managed to work that option into the game in a non lame way like even a simple quick click yes or no dialogue box before the start of the game then I think a lot of people would be happy at the inclusion, and a lot of people like me would be happy not to have to deal with that. (Nothing against being gay, but you can't begrudge me if I don't want to deal with it)

Possible?  Probably.  PC?  Definitely not.  There's an easy way for you to deal with gay content in the game, if there is any: If a guy comes on to you, decline.  That's it.  The end.  Congratulations!  Your Shep is as straight as Sir Isaac Newton is a space badass.

What you're asking for is essentially requesting an option of burying your head in the sand and pretending that perfectly valid lifestyle choices don't exist.  A "Seperate But Equal" option... where have I heard that before?  I seem to think it didn't work out very well.

[BiancoAngelo7]

OMG dude, you guys are not going to win any sympathy from anyone if even when someone tries to meet you half way with a possible solution, all you do is answer with sarcasm, snide comments and insinuate that I'm just as bad as the people who implemented segregation against African Americans.

And as for you saying that my answer to everything you guys have said is that "I dont want to deal with it" you're letting your passion for this subject misread what I wrote. Nowhere did I ever write or say that this issue is moot or shouldn't be addressed because I don't want to deal with it. I only ever said that personally, me as in "myself "and my own game experience, I would rather not have to deal with gays and gay romances in game, as that's not my preference.

Now I see why so many people get into heated name calling arguments, no matter what I say its met with rudeness and rewriting what I previously wrote.
All the while having the arrogance to presume to tell others how to think and declare your personal tendencies as universal truths.

"burying your head in the sand and pretending that perfectly valid lifestyle choices don't exist"

I'm curious to see how you would react if I told you that wanting a gay option is "equal to burying your head in the sand and pretending that being gay isn't a perfectly invalid lifestyle choice"

Holy crap, try and relax.

Modifié par BiancoAngelo7, 16 décembre 2010 - 07:27 .

[Deltateam Elcor]

NVM bout this post.

Modifié par Deltateam Elcor, 16 décembre 2010 - 07:29 .

[Wittand25]

BiancoAngelo7 wrote...

 

May I politly suggest that you take the time to read at least the first page of the thread. It should clear up some of the responses you recieved and show you that your assumptions about the posters in this thread are wrong.
Sometimes it makes me quite sad that after all the time we invested in creating in those posts people do not take time to read the very first page before posting.
In fact we already had long discussions on how romances both gay and straight can be improved to avoid Sheppard getting unwanted proposals and came up wth several possible solutions that should be able to satisfy almost everyone.

[BiancoAngelo7]

Wittand25 wrote...

BiancoAngelo7 wrote...

 

May I politly suggest that you take the time to read at least the first page of the thread. It should clear up some of the responses you recieved and show you that your assumptions about the posters in this thread are wrong.
Sometimes it makes me quite sad that after all the time we invested in creating in those posts people do not take time to read the very first page before posting.
In fact we already had long discussions on how romances both gay and straight can be improved to avoid Sheppard getting unwanted proposals and came up wth several possible solutions that should be able to satisfy almost everyone.

Dude I read the first page, otherwise how would I even know what you guys want or why this is a big deal for you? I never made any assumptions about any of the posters here. After leaving the whole "I don't think Shep should be gay for x,y and z reasons" thing alone, and even admitting that I had not thought of the possibility that the moderator Pacifien had mentioned, I tried to put forward what I thought could be a possible solution which is pretty close to one of the possible solutions on the first page you guys originally wrote. (dont remember if it was the second one or w/e)

But then even after continuously ignoring the sarcasm, the snide comments, and the air of arrogance and superiority I STILL try and discuss it in a civil and open way and STILL the sarcasm, the snide comments and even being compared to segregation racists.

If anyone thinks that's the way to win people over who not only disagree with you, but try to understand and meet you half way, then I will quite frankly reserve the right to think that I shouldn't care about changing my mind if the people demanding I do so are the same ones calling me an idiot and implying I'm as bad as a segregation racist.

Edit: not to mention that more than a few times you and others who have responded to me answered some of my points with completely irrelevant counter points that served only the purpose of trying to shift the discussino towards me somehow being some sort of homophobe. Whether this was done on purpose or not of course I don't know, but it serves nothing in the long run except to increase frustration (on both sides) and and misrepresent what I originally said. That got really annoying after the first few times, and was a big reason why I even stopped trying to explain why I thought Shep shouldnt be gay. (which is the worst way to "win" an argument, if you make the person feel like there is no point in conversing with you, then they will only leave the table with an even more fortified belief that your opinion is invalid or faulty)

Modifié par BiancoAngelo7, 16 décembre 2010 - 08:40 .

[Dionkey]

This is the way I look at it:



I was homophobic until a few years ago(I believe I was around 11 at the time, 15 now), not because it scared me but I really didn't understand it. Being a white straight male I never really had any discrimination against me. I eventually realized that it was wrong and everyone is equal. My parents had little to no influence this whole time either, it was mostly how the media and entertainment portrayed it.



Consider this: If we had the technology to make Mass Effect Pre-JFK it wouldn't fly. Why? Interracial relationships. This time we can change that. We are not a nation of one religion or one ideology, we have the chance to start making the push towards gay rights. Having lesbian sex scenes only is sort of offensive, you can't just appeal to the lowest common denominator that thinks gays are immoral but behind closed doors will watch lesbian scenes. I am not even pointing the finger at Bioware and calling them Homophobic, I think they are far from that and intelligent enough to realize.



You didn't do it in ME1 because you were afraid how the audience would react, fair enough. But now you have the final part of the trilogy. It worked in DAO and the audience wants it, if someone doesn't like it they need to grow up. Do the system the OP suggested that allows you to choose sexual preference from import or character creation.

[ScotOfClanDonald]

BiancoAngelo7 wrote...

OMG dude, you guys are not going to win any sympathy from anyone if even when someone tries to meet you half way with a possible solution, all you do is answer with sarcasm, snide comments and insinuate that I'm just as bad as the people who implemented segregation against African Americans.

I honestly can't tell if you're just trolling at this point, but my last post was maybe a touch sarcastic, but in no way did it say that you're "just as bad as segregationists."  I merely pointed out that "seperate but equal" solutions, which is explicitly what you wanted with your "GAY Y/N" toggle idea, don't tend to work out all that well, because it gives creedence to the idea that gender/sexuality differentiation is somehow true, when it's really not.  Gays and lesbians are people just like straights, and not everything revolves around their preferences.

And as for you saying that my answer to everything you guys have said is that "I dont want to deal with it" you're letting your passion for this subject misread what I wrote. Nowhere did I ever write or say that this issue is moot or shouldn't be addressed because I don't want to deal with it. I only ever said that personally, me as in "myself "and my own game experience, I would rather not have to deal with gays and gay romances in game, as that's not my preference.

Fair enough.  I apologize for any assumptions made; I'm just saying that, while I know you'd rather not deal with it, asking for special treatment from Bioware (by installing the toggle by which you could block out all gay content) is simply not something that I think that Bioware should waste their time on.  Would it also block out straight content for gay players?  

As for my "passion for this subject," I might be straight, but I will stand with my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters any day of the week if it means clearing up short-sighted misconceptions and outright bigotry.  And if you want to claim the victim status by saying that I just implied that you're a bigot, save us some trolling and don't.

"burying your head in the sand and pretending that perfectly valid lifestyle choices don't exist"

I'm curious to see how you would react if I told you that wanting a gay option is "equal to burying your head in the sand and pretending that being gay isn't a perfectly invalid lifestyle choice"

Then I would say that you're a small-minded homophobe and that there's no real reason to continue talking to a brick wall who continues to post in threads claiming not to have an axe to grind but really wanting to deprive others of something because he or she personally doesn't like it.  What you just wrote theoretically there and what I wrote are NOT equivilant.  What I said didn't take away any legitimacy from straight people, while your version tries to take legitmacy from gay people.

But you didn't say that, so there's no reason for me to say those hurtful things in response.

[MisterDyslexo]

If I read BiancoAngelo's comments correctly, he does admit that he feels uncomfortable with the s/s romances, but they aren't his reasoning. He starts with that its inconsistent for Male Shepard. I've never seen anything saying that Female Shepard is differently, and there is no evidence otherwise (except for the fact she can say "I'm only interested in men") in the games other than exclusive romances. There were rebuttals and he admitted that it can make sense, and withdrew that argument.
The Bond argument was disproven seeing as Bond is very static, whereas Shepard cannot even had a pre-defined personality to be static.
He questioned whether it was worthwhile of Bioware's resources, but realistically how much is going to be displaced if there's a few extra lines in the game? They're already spending millions, and profit is guaranteed. In my mind them doing it would show that they value pride in their work over a little amount of spent resources.
I don't begrudge him for not wanting to deal with s/s content, but while the "Separate but equal" argument (that it doesn't work and create a double-standard saying one is better than the other) is true, you could easily disprove it by saying that there's a lot of things nobody wants to deal with. I avoid Tali like the plague. She reminds me a lot of my sister, and I realize that she could be seen as a stereotypical homicidal Palestinian (not myself judging her). So when she's hitting on me, the back of my mind pictures my sister in a bloody burka with a Kalashnikov. Thats definitely not something I want to romance. Know what I do? Ignore it. Done. Never had to deal with it once again. The only real problem I foresee it being hit on by other characters, and I think everybody dislikes getting hit on by one of more character(s) that they should find a different method to begin romantic dialogue.

Point is he has logical viewpoints, which were disproven. He even admitted he was wrong. Stop bullying him around, he's done nothing wrong.

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 16 décembre 2010 - 09:51 .

[Rebel42]

I would like gay romance options for both male and female Shepard characters, I think in general the romance options should be clearly marked so that you can't accidentally romance anyone, i think this would give the best rpg for all

[adembroski11]

Straight and have no personal interest in male-male or female-female relationships in Mass Effect myself.



I support your effort to persuade, and I support Bioware's prerogative in making the final call. I guess that makes my post irrelevant, but I think more people who are in support of your efforts should speak out.



I will say this:



* To those who don't want it... why do you care? If it's a choice, a choice you can ignore (and thus portray your Shep as being 100% undeniably straight), what's wrong with allowing others their own approach?



To those in favor but feel Bioware owes them this: Bioware owns the IP, Bioware may do with the IP as it pleases. You are welcome to leaving your money in your wallet. Of all entertainment companies, Bioware is the last who deserve to have their "sexual sensitivity" questioned.



All that said, I'm a free market guy, very libertarian, so the above is self-evidently my viewpoint.

[BiancoAngelo7]

@Scotofclandonald

Wow even when confronted with a word for word copy of how you say something you try to act like I'm the one saying it?

And you yet AGAIN start with the superiority and insults. You guys are never going to convince anyone who doesn't already think like you do, acting like this.

Your entire response is self validating half truths shrouded by insults and passive aggressive personal attacks.

There's no point in even trying to have a civil discussion with you when even when you apologize for making assumptions due to not having read what I wrote you call me a troll.

Whatever you want dude.

Modifié par BiancoAngelo7, 16 décembre 2010 - 10:14 .

[ScotOfClanDonald]

BiancoAngelo7: I was just about to apologize for anything incindiary I might have said; I'm new around here (well, last time I posted regularly was Baldur's Gate 2), and I have no need to another thread locked due to insults or strife. So, get down with your bad self, Bianco.



I trust that Bioware knows what they're doing; they know they have loyal customers that support a broader selection of available romances. I'm pretty sure they'll be on the right side of history, when it's all said and done.

[Eromenos]

Pacifien wrote...

You know, a character doesn't really have to be defined by his sexuality. He doesn't have to bring sexual innuendo into every conversation. Doesn't have to throw in feeders to see if another guy is interested. He could simply not be interested in pursuing a romantic relationship until the Reapers are on his very doorstep and he has an epiphany that leads him to grab Big Ben Sniper Guy and kiss him passionately before it's all over.
People complain that Shepard is a wooden plank in the games, but the reason why is because it allows great leeway for someone to roleplay the character, filling in the blanks that are never explicitly covered within the game. If you roleplayed Shepard as having no romantic interest in the first two games, it's perfectly reasonable he would be "suddenly" gay in the third game. That is fair.
If you did roleplay Shepard as some hopeless romantic in need of companionship in the first two games, then maybe his sudden turn of interest from the ladies to the men might seem odd. That is the way you chose to roleplay it. There is no wrong way to roleplay.

Why would it be odd if he or she is a switch-hitter? You're making an excuse to defend ME3 in the likely event that it will continue to exclude M/M while expanding on current and past exploitations of F/F.

Modifié par Eromenos, 17 décembre 2010 - 02:28 .

[The Fan]

I agree with Wrexdot. I don't want Shepard's picture to be altered in this way. I think it will get a lot of bad press and make this game a laughing stock for all the anit-gay/lesbian people in the world. Plus i want to talk to members of my team without becoming their butt buddy.

[Pacifien]

Eromenos wrote...
Why would it be odd if he or she is a switch-hitter? You're making an excuse to defend ME3 in the likely event that it will continue to exclude M/M while expanding on current and past exploitations of F/F.

You have taken my post out of context as it was a response to someone who said they would find the concept odd. I believe no such thing.