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jlb524 wrote...
I do find it odd that ME2 is telling us that most species are open to inter-species dating (not just the asari) but their attraction still must follow the heterosexual norm. This baffles me.
MisterDyslexo wrote...
jlb524 wrote...
I do find it odd that ME2 is telling us that most species are open to inter-species dating (not just the asari) but their attraction still must follow the heterosexual norm. This baffles me.
One of the reasons I stated that it would make sense that Tali could be 'manced by FemShep.
I don't get their logic either, for the record.
Modifié par jlb524, 17 décembre 2010 - 04:14 .
Valagil wrote...
My FemShep can become intimate with a Turian (how this is even biologically possible is beyond me) yet MaleShep can not be intimate with another male. I don't understand this.
Guest_Phantom Actuality_*
It doesn't baffle me at all. I would say it's pretty close to other futuristic fiction that I've seen.jlb524 wrote...
I do find it odd that ME2 is telling us that most species are open to inter-species dating (not just the asari) but their attraction still must follow the heterosexual norm. This baffles me.
Guest_Ms. Lovey Dovey_*
Phantom Actuality wrote...
It doesn't baffle me at all. I would say it's pretty close to other futuristic fiction that I've seen.jlb524 wrote...
I do find it odd that ME2 is telling us that most species are open to inter-species dating (not just the asari) but their attraction still must follow the heterosexual norm. This baffles me.
Pacifien wrote...
What? No seriously, what?Eromenos wrote...
It seemed to me that you were the one who believes a concept of fluid attraction is odd. I interpreted that as justification for the ME universe's rigid dismissal of M/M.
You know, a character doesn't really have to be defined by his
sexuality. He doesn't have to bring sexual innuendo into every
conversation. Doesn't have to throw in feeders to see if another guy is
interested. He could simply not be interested in pursuing a romantic
relationship until the Reapers are on his very doorstep and he has an
epiphany that leads him to grab Big Ben Sniper Guy and kiss him
passionately before it's all over.
People complain that Shepard
is a wooden plank in the games, but the reason why is because it allows
great leeway for someone to roleplay the character, filling in the
blanks that are never explicitly covered within the game. If you
roleplayed Shepard as having no romantic interest in the first two
games, it's perfectly reasonable he would be "suddenly" gay in the
third game. That is fair.
If you did roleplay Shepard as some
hopeless romantic in need of companionship in the first two games, then
maybe his sudden turn of interest from the ladies to the men might seem
odd. That is the way you chose to roleplay it. There is no wrong way to
roleplay.
Modifié par Eromenos, 17 décembre 2010 - 04:22 .
MisterDyslexo wrote...
The Normandy's wizard, Mordin Solus, did it.
In their defense, thoough, it isn't a casual thing, and we don't even know if FemShep and Garrus actually did-the-do.
Guest_Ms. Lovey Dovey_*
Eromenos wrote...
This is what you wrote prior-
You know, a character doesn't really have to be defined by his
sexuality. He doesn't have to bring sexual innuendo into every
conversation. Doesn't have to throw in feeders to see if another guy is
interested. He could simply not be interested in pursuing a romantic
relationship until the Reapers are on his very doorstep and he has an
epiphany that leads him to grab Big Ben Sniper Guy and kiss him
passionately before it's all over.
People complain that Shepard
is a wooden plank in the games, but the reason why is because it allows
great leeway for someone to roleplay the character, filling in the
blanks that are never explicitly covered within the game. If you
roleplayed Shepard as having no romantic interest in the first two
games, it's perfectly reasonable he would be "suddenly" gay in the
third game. That is fair.
If you did roleplay Shepard as some
hopeless romantic in need of companionship in the first two games, then
maybe his sudden turn of interest from the ladies to the men might seem
odd. That is the way you chose to roleplay it. There is no wrong way to
roleplay.
It sounded like you're saying that a John Shepard who loved Ashley but now loves Kaidan is somehow an oddity among men. Not because Shepard switched partners, but because he stepped outside his role as an otherwise "established" straight man. But established by what, default? I saw your statement as a defense for the homophobia committed by ME1, and by extent, ME2.
Uh, I also said you took it out of context and I didn't believe that at all?Eromenos wrote...
It sounded like you're saying that a John Shepard who loved Ashley but now loves Kaidan is somehow an oddity among men. Not because Shepard switched partners, but because he stepped outside his role as an otherwise "established" straight man. But established by what, default? I saw your statement as a defense for the homophobia committed by ME1, and by extent, ME2.
Modifié par Walrusninja, 17 décembre 2010 - 04:31 .
Guest_Phantom Actuality_*
You could say the same thing about hundreds, maybe thousands, or more, of stories, shows, and movies. There is no litmus test that has to be passed in order for a writer to write a story. It's fiction.Ms. Lovey Dovey wrote...
Futuristic fiction written in a modern view. Ironic? Futuristic?Phantom Actuality wrote...
It doesn't baffle me at all. I would say it's pretty close to other futuristic fiction that I've seen.jlb524 wrote...
I do find it odd that ME2 is telling us that most species are open to inter-species dating (not just the asari) but their attraction still must follow the heterosexual norm. This baffles me.
Modifié par Phantom Actuality, 17 décembre 2010 - 04:33 .
Phantom Actuality wrote...
You could say the same thing about hundreds, maybe thousands, or more, of stories, shows, and movies. There is no litmus test that has to be passed in order for a writer to write a story. It's fiction.Ms. Lovey Dovey wrote...
Futuristic fiction written in a modern view. Ironic? Futuristic?Phantom Actuality wrote...
It doesn't baffle me at all. I would say it's pretty close to other futuristic fiction that I've seen.jlb524 wrote...
I do find it odd that ME2 is telling us that most species are open to inter-species dating (not just the asari) but their attraction still must follow the heterosexual norm. This baffles me.
Guest_Phantom Actuality_*
It'll change, it already has, just won't happen overnight.jlb524 wrote...
But the context in which said fiction is written in is important. The 'futuristic' fiction is written with 'modern' views on such things as homosexuality or women's rights. Hence, the irony.
Guest_Phantom Actuality_*
Modifié par Phantom Actuality, 17 décembre 2010 - 05:04 .
Phantom Actuality wrote...
It'll change, it already has, just won't happen overnight.jlb524 wrote...
But the context in which said fiction is written in is important. The 'futuristic' fiction is written with 'modern' views on such things as homosexuality or women's rights. Hence, the irony.
Phantom Actuality wrote...
Yes it is fiction, and fiction is never going to be reality. It's really ironic if you compare ME to DA. DA is in a fictional Dark Ages/Mideval Times fantasy type setting. That period in world history was quite hostile to homosexuality, to understate it, yet there it is in the game. The Chantry? Kinda reminds you of the Catholic Church, doesn't it? If there's one setting that would be lacking open homosexuality, then that would be up there at the top of the list, I would think. In neither DA or ME however, do you see homosexual couples together, except for the protagonist and his/her LI. Same goes for the majority of fiction that I've seen.
jlb524 wrote...
Phantom Actuality wrote...
Not a wide open choice"We're not saying that one approach is better than the other. In our previous games, as we did in Jade Empire, as we did in KOTOR, as we did in Baldur's Gate, and many games before and in the future, we enable those kinds of choices, whereas in Mass Effect it's more about Shepard as a defined character with certain approaches and worldviews, and that's just who he or she is. So we constrain the choice set somewhat, but enable more tactical choices and enable a deeper, richer personality, because it's more focused around defining one character, it's not as wide open."
There's so much wrong here. First off, during ME2, they marketed the game as allowing one to live their own space adventure via the cool game that is ME2. That doesn't seem so pre-defined to me. Also, there's a contraction. If Shepard is 'pre-defined' to be straight, then why can the Female version be played as gay or bi? For this to hold, either the female version needs to be cut from the game (and it's all about uber straight ManShep) or the female version cannot have any same-sex opportunities. We know that both are untrue, as the female version of 'Shepard' is a part of the game and she can have two same-sex relationships (Liara and Kelly) as well as show an interest in Samara.
Modifié par Eromenos, 17 décembre 2010 - 05:12 .
jlb524 wrote...
Phantom Actuality wrote...
Yes it is fiction, and fiction is never going to be reality. It's really ironic if you compare ME to DA. DA is in a fictional Dark Ages/Mideval Times fantasy type setting. That period in world history was quite hostile to homosexuality, to understate it, yet there it is in the game. The Chantry? Kinda reminds you of the Catholic Church, doesn't it? If there's one setting that would be lacking open homosexuality, then that would be up there at the top of the list, I would think. In neither DA or ME however, do you see homosexual couples together, except for the protagonist and his/her LI. Same goes for the majority of fiction that I've seen.
I know, and if you do see homosexuality (non protagonist) it's usually protrayed as a bad thing (see the Morinth/Nef example in ME2). I think this is wrong and I am speaking out against it in hopes of a change.
Eromenos wrote...
It's because women are treated as jokes in ME2. The game is designed to appeal to the action-crowd, and for those who are accustomed to not dealing with women characters except for say female bosses who strip for you after they're defeated in Metal Gear Solid 4(I think), it's no stretch at all for BioWare to tailor most of the female squadmates into needy princesses so long as Shepard keeps at them. There are many things I admire in most of our female squadmates, but they were all tarnished by fanboy appeasement compelling them to give it up easily. BioWare operates on the assumption that most players want to "get with" the wimmin at the exclusion of all other approaches to a R-P-G. That is the primary reason for why it's easier than ever for ME2 players to accidentally lapse into unwanted romantic encounters.
Some of the women characters were lucky enough that they weren't called to perform to such extent this time, but all of them except Kasumi were forced to respond to some measure of verbal pawing.
Catsuits, heels, and cleavage in space-age combat. I haven't forgotten about those either. /slowclap, BioWare.
MisterDyslexo wrote...
I remember Wade from DA:O (who makes the dragon armour) is in a "gay relationship" with Herren. As it turns out, when you do the DLC where you play as the darkspawn, you can see them fleeing in terror. Well, until Herren turns into a desire demon, put up a barrier, and teleports itself and Wade away.
Because thats... well, I'm not even sure how I should perceive that as
jlb524 wrote...
MisterDyslexo wrote...
jlb524 wrote...
I do find it odd that ME2 is telling us that most species are open to inter-species dating (not just the asari) but their attraction still must follow the heterosexual norm. This baffles me.
One of the reasons I stated that it would make sense that Tali could be 'manced by FemShep.
I don't get their logic either, for the record.
I agree.
We see human/turian pairs (Garrus/FemShep) and human/quarian(Tali/ManShep) and even a quarian/turian pair in the Eternity bar on Illium (though, the quarian was more interested in a male human). All hetero.
Even the asari (who are supposedly attracted to both genders of any species) are always shown with a male alien in game or are shown attracted to one, except for Morinth and Nef.
And, may I ask how the Morinth and Nef 'romance' ends....the young human female, confused about her sexuality and her attraction to another woman, is violently killed by her partner. Hmmmm....what message does that send to the kiddies?
Modifié par Eromenos, 17 décembre 2010 - 05:36 .
Eromenos wrote...
I'm glad you brought up Nef and Morinth. I made a note of Nef's journal entry wherein she treated her feelings for another female(Morinth) as an oddity from the "norm" of being attracted only to males. That's BioWare's handy apologist reinforcement to the belief that straightness is the standard and that other sexualities are no more than offshoots.
The whole Ardat-Yakshi thing was a sensationalistic exploitation of evil-lesbian stereotypes lumped in with token sympathy for the terrors faced by same-sex parents...all females of course, in ME-universe. Insulting attempt to appease justifiable protests against their branding of same-sex asari with pure villainy. Because, victimhood is so much preferrable. Villain and victim, the only roles allowed for established purebloods and their families. Similarities to any social class(s) we're familiar with?
As you also stated, the heterosexual parents of Ilium were shown happy and privileged to chat about petty things. The purebloods were reviled and or inhospitable. Samara was no exception. The bartender is friendly, but remarks about breaking it off with her pureblood mate and child. Same-sex lovers just can't be happy in ME, though BioWare would be quick to label them mono-gendered.
Modifié par jlb524, 17 décembre 2010 - 05:52 .
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