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[Ashira Shepard]

Anyone think that maybe the writer just didn't see it making sense if Nef was a timid male artist? Maybe he made up the character before settling on the gender? No? Okay, just me then.



Because, I've done the same thing as a writer. Not because I hate something, someone or a minority, but because the character fit.



"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

[jlb524]

Crimmsonwind wrote...

Nef ended up dead because Morinth was a psycho-****.

I never got this vibe that "lesbians and same-sex parents are evil" in ME. Quite the opposite for me, in fact. The asari don't have to mate with other males to keep the A-Y from happening, they can mate with human females, quarian females, turian females, etc. It's a genetic issue, not unlike certain things that happen among humans. Certain regions and ethnicities are prone to certain diseases and illnesses. It's the same thing with the asari, just on a larger scale.

Honestly, I think you guys may be reading into something just for the sake of shaking your fist at Bioware. I love a lot of you, but come on.

We are looking at this from a meta-perspecitve and what messages are being sent on that level.   It really has nothing to do with in-game justifications given for this (like, Morinth is a psycho-*** or that the asari technically will mate with any gender). 

From a meta-persepctive, we don't see healthy and functioning f/f relationships involving asari...we only see healthy m/f relationships involving them.  I find this troubling.

Modifié par jlb524, 17 décembre 2010 - 05:59 .

[MisterDyslexo]

Agreed with Crimmsonwind. While I see what you're getting at, I think you're reading to much into it. Then again, I'm a guy, or not-a-lesbian, so we probably perceive it differently than you because of that. Also looking at Bioware's past it doesn't seem like they'd dare to do anything like that. To me the Asari reminded me of the Inuits (aka Eskimo, but that terms insulting) of Canada. Pretty much they're trying to preserve their culture, but the only way they can is by inbreeding. Which of course leads to genetic sterility. So they expand out, with everybody seeing them as "Ooh, did you hear 'x' about them?" that further damages their image. This only really applies partially, but thats my take.

[Ashira Shepard]

Or maybe, and now just maybe, it had nothing to do with the writers and it was all just an unfortunate and moronic incident of Executive Meddling.

[Walrusninja]

You're kind of getting the wrong idea. You're looking at everything as lesbians or whatever and every sexuality, whereas they're all just people: /. The overall theme here is that sexuality shouldn't be a big deal, yet some of you are making it one:? They never said or implied that "lesbians are evil". There's good and bad of all sexualities in ME. Lesbians and gays are in that sense treated equally. If they were left out and made to look like 100% peaceful and awesome people that would be biased.



I do agree with some of the stereotypical gaming girl stuff, but ME has always been pretty decent in that respect I feel.



ME isn't perfect, but it displays a hell of a lot more tolerance to all sexualities, races, species than any other game I've ever seen. Maybe they shouldn't bother?

[jlb524]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Agreed with Crimmsonwind. While I see what you're getting at, I think you're reading to much into it. Then again, I'm a guy, or not-a-lesbian, so we probably perceive it differently than you because of that. Also looking at Bioware's past it doesn't seem like they'd dare to do anything like that. To me the Asari reminded me of the Inuits (aka Eskimo, but that terms insulting) of Canada. Pretty much they're trying to preserve their culture, but the only way they can is by inbreeding. Which of course leads to genetic sterility. So they expand out, with everybody seeing them as "Ooh, did you hear 'x' about them?" that further damages their image. This only really applies partially, but thats my take.

Again, I don't care about ingame pseudo-biological reasons given.  I'm looking at this from a more critical eye...from a meta-perspective and the messages being sent.

[Crimmsonwind]

jlb524 wrote...

Crimmsonwind wrote...

Nef ended up dead because Morinth was a psycho-****.

I never got this vibe that "lesbians and same-sex parents are evil" in ME. Quite the opposite for me, in fact. The asari don't have to mate with other males to keep the A-Y from happening, they can mate with human females, quarian females, turian females, etc. It's a genetic issue, not unlike certain things that happen among humans. Certain regions and ethnicities are prone to certain diseases and illnesses. It's the same thing with the asari, just on a larger scale.

Honestly, I think you guys may be reading into something just for the sake of shaking your fist at Bioware. I love a lot of you, but come on.

We are looking at this from a meta-perspecitve and what messages are being sent on that level.   It really has nothing to do with in-game justifications given for this (like, Morinth is a psycho-*** or that the asari technically will mate with any gender). 

From a meta-persepctive, we don't see healthy and functioning f/f relationships involving asari...we only see healthy m/f relationships involving them.

I think my relationship with Liara is going pretty well. We see asari talking to each other and other females all the time. They may have no dialogue, but isn't it entirely possible that they're talking about their loving family or complementing their partner's dress that evening? Frankly, I'm glad we're seeing drama. It's a hell of a lot less boring.

And "justification?" Why does it have to be a justification? Morinth really is a psychotic killer. That is the meta.

I had a maleshep just for fun. I wouldn't call what happened between him and Ashley on Horizon a "healthy m/f" relationship. She ws pretty ticked off.

[jlb524]

AshiraShepard wrote...

Or maybe, and now just maybe, it had nothing to do with the writers and it was all just an unfortunate and moronic incident of Executive Meddling.

I'm sure it's not the writers fault...I never said it was.  However, the message is still being sent by the company who produces the game.

[Walrusninja]

jlb, I never got or even thought or felt hints of any of those messages until you brought them up, and I don't exactly live in the most tolerant society.



I play ME, some people are great, others aren't, I never based that on sexuality. Ironic that the people fighting sexuality siding are doing it themselves. I don't mean that as an offence, simply an observation.

[jlb524]

Crimmsonwind wrote...

 I think my relationship with Liara is going pretty well. We see asari talking to each other and other females all the time. They may have no dialogue, but isn't it entirely possible that they're talking about their loving family or complementing their partner's dress that evening? Frankly, I'm glad we're seeing drama. It's a hell of a lot less boring.

And "justification?" Why does it have to be a justification? Morinth really is a psychotic killer. That is the meta.

I had a maleshep just for fun. I wouldn't call what happened between him and Ashley on Horizon a "healthy m/f" relationship. She ws pretty ticked off.

The FemShep/Liara relationship is quite optional.  Most will never see it as, according to statistics, 80% play as a Male Shepard.  

Also, asari talking to females doesn't imply a romantic relationship.  All of the clearly defined relationships involving asari most definitely involve a male alien. 

About Morinth...she didn't have to be a pshyco killer and she didn't have to be shown killing a bi-curious young woman.  There were other possibilities they could have explored.

[Crimmsonwind]

I'm just saying, I'm a chick, I like chicks, and I'm not feeling the slightest bit of persecution or shafting in any way, shape or form from this game. So I really have no idea where you're seeing this, or why you're seeing it.

[Eromenos]

jlb524 wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

I'm glad you brought up Nef and Morinth. I made a note of Nef's journal entry wherein she treated her feelings for another female(Morinth) as an oddity from the "norm" of being attracted only to males. That's BioWare's handy apologist reinforcement to the belief that straightness is the standard and that other sexualities are no more than offshoots.

The whole Ardat-Yakshi thing was a sensationalistic exploitation of evil-lesbian stereotypes lumped in with token sympathy for the terrors faced by same-sex parents...all females of course, in ME-universe. Insulting attempt to appease justifiable protests against their branding of same-sex asari with pure villainy. Because, victimhood is so much preferrable. Villain and victim, the only roles allowed for established purebloods and their families. Similarities to any social class(s) we're familiar with?

As you also stated, the heterosexual parents of Ilium were shown happy and privileged to chat about petty things. The purebloods were reviled and or inhospitable. Samara was no exception. The bartender is friendly, but remarks about breaking it off with her pureblood mate and child. Same-sex lovers just can't be happy in ME, though BioWare would be quick to label them  mono-gendered.

Damn, I'm just glad someone on this site agrees with me on this :happy:

*Though, others have agreed with me, but most think I'm nutso*

It's horrid.  And, don't even get me started on how Jack is portrayed. 

I think also that the fact that asari (for some reason) have to mate with other species besides their own is problematic.  Before, they were basically mating with themselves and were a bunch of 'happy lesbians' but we all know that can't last.  They must leave those wicked ways and seek out other species....which, seems to always end up being males of those other species.

Yeah, the Nef thing.... it's also a terrible message to send:  when poor young Nef finally gives in to her lesbian desires, she ends up dead.


But yeah, it seems BW is trying to draw parallels between asari 'purebloods' and human homosexuals, and it's quite troubling.

Hehe, same here.   I usually feel more...militant than most people on this issue. I'm glad to meet someone who is decoding this mess too!

Not hard, but unpleasantness can feel like a weight added onto necessity. So much of these patterns feel evident since not one of them is original or even exclusive to BioWare.

The asari exploitation is as old as Captain Kirk at the least, and it should belong back in that time. I've only played through as a male so far, so I'm curious...as a female character, are all the dancer npcs female still? As a male the only dancers I'm allowed to interact with are females. Just in case, I'll dig out my "surprise face."

[jlb524]

Walrusninja wrote...

jlb, I never got or even thought or felt hints of any of those messages until you brought them up, and I don't exactly live in the most tolerant society.

I play ME, some people are great, others aren't, I never based that on sexuality. Ironic that the people fighting sexuality siding are doing it themselves. I don't mean that as an offence, simply an observation.

Huh?

[jlb524]

Eromenos wrote...
Hehe, same here.   I usually feel more...militant than most people on this issue. I'm glad to meet someone who is decoding this mess too!

Not hard, but unpleasantness can feel like a weight added onto necessity. So much of these patterns feel evident since not one of them is original or even exclusive to BioWare.

The asari exploitation is as old as Captain Kirk at the least, and it should belong back in that time. I've only played through as a male so far, so I'm curious...as a female character, are all the dancer npcs female still? As a male the only dancers I'm allowed to interact with are females. Just in case, I'll dig out my "surprise face."

As a female, all the dancer NPCs are female...mostly asari.

[Crimmsonwind]

jlb524 wrote...

The FemShep/Liara relationship is quite optional.  Most will never see it as, according to statistics, 80% play as a Male Shepard.  

Also, asari talking to females doesn't imply a romantic relationship.  All of the clearly defined relationships involving asari most definitely involve a male alien. 

About Morinth...she didn't have to be a pshyco killer and she didn't have to be shown killing a bi-curious young woman.  There were other possibilities they could have explored.

I'm with the other guys, here. You're placing a lot of emphasis on sexuality that I don't think was present. If I'm remembering Nef's journal correctly, she wasn't intrigued because Morinth was biologically female; she was intrigued because some other sentient, walking, talking, breathing creature was actually interested in her. That whole experience was utterly new to her.

[Walrusninja]

Many like youself jlb, have been trying rightly to say that sexuality shouldn't be a big deal. Then you read into every single thing and decide it must be due to sexuality while selecting only appropriate examples. Is that not making sexuality into a big deal? Circle.

[MisterDyslexo]

I see what you're getting at, and its definitely there. I just don't think its by any means intentional. And remember some of the writers genuinely see the asari as monogendered, so I'm sure that affects some perception of asari culture in their mind. We can even see what one would call masculinity vs femininity in some asari, where one just kinda takes a certain role in the relationship due to their personality. A "who wears the pants in the relationship" kind of thing. I'm not trying to say its not there, but I don't think its intentional and meant to be harmful. A lot of great writers make mistakes and miscommunications in their writing, it just makes them human for not thinking about it in a certain regard. It reminds me of something my history teacher did once. He assigned us a project to find our family roots. We had a black student in the class (pre-dominantly white neighborhood and hispanic) who said "Well what about me?". Fortunately the situation was handled politely and with humour, but he was mortified that he didn't think of it that way. I'm guessing thats what the writers are doing.

Edit: If I'm coming off as insensitive, I apologize. I'm just trying to politely say it as I see it.

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 17 décembre 2010 - 06:14 .

[Ashira Shepard]

Evil Heterosexuals - Evil people

Good Heterosexuals - Good people



Evil Homosexuals - Evil people

Good Homosexuals - Good People



For personal examples almost all my lesbian characters are dark in some way or another. One is a half-demon assassin who kills, murders, even tortures, and enjoys it. Another is a demonic anti-hero. Yet another is a warlock whose spells make people explode or burn to a husk from the inside out.



They are all "dark" - but that's just their character. Their being "dark lesbians" isn't the thought in my head, it's them being dark, as people. Some people are just effed up, regardless of sexuality or gender.

[Eromenos]

Crimmsonwind wrote...

Nef ended up dead because Morinth was a psycho-****.

I never got this vibe that "lesbians and same-sex parents are evil" in ME. Quite the opposite for me, in fact. The asari don't have to mate with other males to keep the A-Y from happening, they can mate with human females, quarian females, turian females, etc. It's a genetic issue, not unlike certain things that happen among humans. Certain regions and ethnicities are prone to certain diseases and illnesses. It's the same thing with the asari, just on a larger scale.

Honestly, I think you guys may be reading into something just for the sake of shaking your fist at Bioware. I love a lot of you, but come on.

Oh, they could. Yet BioWare is unwilling to establish happy, loving, same-sex relationships that can last. Without imposing streaks of crime or tragedy on them.

That's why all their non-pureblood asari are equipped with only husbands, boyfriends, or dads as family members. Some might infer that the fathers being verbally alluded to were female non-asari, but that does not excuse BioWare from its refusal to establish any such concrete portrait.

Modifié par Eromenos, 17 décembre 2010 - 06:14 .

[jlb524]

Walrusninja wrote...

Many like youself jlb, have been trying rightly to say that sexuality shouldn't be a big deal. Then you read into every single thing and decide it must be due to sexuality while selecting only appropriate examples. Is that not making sexuality into a big deal? Circle.

I don't think it should be a big deal, but I am saying it is a big deal.  I'm also saying that it is often used to exploit and put down gay persons.

Sexuality is a big deal for gay people b/c people make it so.  The same does not go for straight people (as their sexuality is never a 'big deal'). 

[jlb524]

AshiraShepard wrote...

Evil Heterosexuals - Evil people
Good Heterosexuals - Good people

Evil Homosexuals - Evil people
Good Homosexuals - Good People

For personal examples almost all my lesbian characters are dark in some way or another. One is a half-demon assassin who kills, murders, even tortures, and enjoys it. Another is a demonic anti-hero. Yet another is a warlock whose spells make people explode or burn to a husk from the inside out.

They are all "dark" - but that's just their character. Their being "dark lesbians" isn't the thought in my head, it's them being dark, as people. Some people are just effed up, regardless of sexuality or gender.

Yes, but, we are not talking about your characters.

We are talking about BW's characters and the ratio of 'dark evil lesbians' or 'defunct lesbian relationships' shown in game to 'happy hetero relationship' shown in game.

[Walrusninja]

Indeed homosexuality is a big deal, you say "people" make it so, but then ... homosexuals make it a big deal just as much:? It's a big circle, it really is. EVERYONE needs to move on, not just "straights" or x,y and z people.



That is not a bash at either "side" it's a remark of despair at the state of the world in general, the same thing happens with many other "touchy" subjects.

[Eromenos]

Walrusninja wrote...

You're kind of getting the wrong idea. You're looking at everything as lesbians or whatever and every sexuality, whereas they're all just people: /. The overall theme here is that sexuality shouldn't be a big deal, yet some of you are making it one:? They never said or implied that "lesbians are evil". There's good and bad of all sexualities in ME. Lesbians and gays are in that sense treated equally. If they were left out and made to look like 100% peaceful and awesome people that would be biased.

I do agree with some of the stereotypical gaming girl stuff, but ME has always been pretty decent in that respect I feel.

ME isn't perfect, but it displays a hell of a lot more tolerance to all sexualities, races, species than any other game I've ever seen. Maybe they shouldn't bother?

Sexuality is a big deal if you're being exploited as a woman and or a member of the queer community.

ME presents ugly male aliens but with stripper female aliens. M/M is excluded and F/F is only there for exploitation, while all the F/F squadmates are kept primarily accessible for M/F. Why do you see those as reasons to give BioWare a free pass?

[jlb524]

Crimmsonwind wrote...

I'm just saying, I'm a chick, I like chicks, and I'm not feeling the slightest bit of persecution or shafting in any way, shape or form from this game. So I really have no idea where you're seeing this, or why you're seeing it.

I don't understand how you cannot see it.