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[jlb524]

Eromenos wrote...

Walrusninja wrote...

You're kind of getting the wrong idea. You're looking at everything as lesbians or whatever and every sexuality, whereas they're all just people: /. The overall theme here is that sexuality shouldn't be a big deal, yet some of you are making it one:? They never said or implied that "lesbians are evil". There's good and bad of all sexualities in ME. Lesbians and gays are in that sense treated equally. If they were left out and made to look like 100% peaceful and awesome people that would be biased.

I do agree with some of the stereotypical gaming girl stuff, but ME has always been pretty decent in that respect I feel.

ME isn't perfect, but it displays a hell of a lot more tolerance to all sexualities, races, species than any other game I've ever seen. Maybe they shouldn't bother?

Sexuality is a big deal if you're being exploited as a woman and or a member of the queer community.

ME presents ugly male aliens but with stripper female aliens. M/M is excluded and F/F is only there for exploitation, while all the F/F squadmates are kept primarily accessible for M/F. Why do you see those as reasons to give BioWare a free pass?

Thank you!  I was just about to say that. :happy:

[Ashira Shepard]

jlb524 wrote...


I don't think it should be a big deal, but I am saying it is a big deal.  I'm also saying that it is often used to exploit and put down gay persons.

Sexuality is a big deal for gay people b/c people make it so.  The same does not go for straight people (as their sexuality is never a 'big deal'). 

I'm sorry, but I'm not in that group just yet.

Maybe I'm spoilt in this regard, because I've not had a problem with being who I am (aside from one or two online interactions, but those don't matter after a while). I guess accepting family and friends make me see it as less of a "big deal" and more "oh hey, I'm gay...now what's for lunch?" I don't look at it as some mind-breaking revelation, it just "is." Therefore when I see a character who happens to be gay and then horrible things happen to them or around them, my first thought isn't a raging "THAT'S ONLY HAPPENING BECAUSE THEY'RE GAY!" - it's more "damn, they've got it bad." And their sexuality doesn't register in that train of thought.

[Crimmsonwind]

Eromenos wrote...

Crimmsonwind wrote...

Nef ended up dead because Morinth was a psycho-****.

I never got this vibe that "lesbians and same-sex parents are evil" in ME. Quite the opposite for me, in fact. The asari don't have to mate with other males to keep the A-Y from happening, they can mate with human females, quarian females, turian females, etc. It's a genetic issue, not unlike certain things that happen among humans. Certain regions and ethnicities are prone to certain diseases and illnesses. It's the same thing with the asari, just on a larger scale.

Honestly, I think you guys may be reading into something just for the sake of shaking your fist at Bioware. I love a lot of you, but come on.

Oh, they could. Yet BioWare is unwilling to establish happy, loving, same-sex relationships that can last. Without imposing streaks of crime or tragedy on them.

That's why all their non-pureblood asari are equipped with only husbands, boyfriends, or dads as family members. Some might infer that the fathers being verbally alluded to were female non-asari, but that does not excuse BioWare from its refusal to establish any such concrete portrait.

Every couple has tragedy, regardless of sexual orientation. I'm glad we're seeing tragedy, it means they're real people dealing with real situations. The couples we see in the game are not the only couples in the entire galaxy. Somewhere out there is a happy asari/human female couple. Do we have to see them? No. The solution is to stop reading freakishly deep into things that are either not there, or are just barely there but are so unintentional that almost nobody noticed. There is the opportunity to have a f/f relationship, if one chooses to pursue it. It has it's rough patch, just like every relationship. The same-sex relationship is not some mythical legend. It is a real thing, had by real people, and just like other couples, we have our ups and downs.

Ugh, I'd love to keep talking about this but I've got a ton of work to do and sleep to catch up on. Closing words:

As someone who plays for both teams, so to speak, I feel the need to repeat that I have never felt any impression that Bioware was alluding to the idea that same-sex romance is some evil, impure thing, not even to the slightest degree. There is no "meta perspective" in most cases. Sometimes a banana is just a banana, or an orange is just an orange, or a flying purple people eater is just a flying purple people eater. Morinth is a character with psychological issues and a genetic disorder that affects her race (again I remind you that certain regions on our very planet suffer from ethnicity-specific diseases, this is not some strange and uncommon thing; humanity has plenty of diseases and genetic defects that affect only humanity and cannot be passed to other species). Nef is a quiet and quirky individual, who happens to be the perfect target, regardless of her gender. The asari are a vast group of individual and unique characters. I'm not really sure what else I can possibly say, because I have a feeling you're just not gonna get it. You're too dead-set on feeling persecuted.

[Eromenos]

jlb524 wrote...

Eromenos wrote...
Hehe, same here.   I usually feel more...militant than most people on this issue. I'm glad to meet someone who is decoding this mess too!

Not hard, but unpleasantness can feel like a weight added onto necessity. So much of these patterns feel evident since not one of them is original or even exclusive to BioWare.

The asari exploitation is as old as Captain Kirk at the least, and it should belong back in that time. I've only played through as a male so far, so I'm curious...as a female character, are all the dancer npcs female still? As a male the only dancers I'm allowed to interact with are females. Just in case, I'll dig out my "surprise face."

As a female, all the dancer NPCs are female...mostly asari.

[jlb524]

AshiraShepard wrote...

jlb524 wrote...


I don't think it should be a big deal, but I am saying it is a big deal.  I'm also saying that it is often used to exploit and put down gay persons.

Sexuality is a big deal for gay people b/c people make it so.  The same does not go for straight people (as their sexuality is never a 'big deal'). 

I'm sorry, but I'm not in that group just yet.

Maybe I'm spoilt in this regard, because I've not had a problem with being who I am (aside from one or two online interactions, but those don't matter after a while). I guess accepting family and friends make me see it as less of a "big deal" and more "oh hey, I'm gay...now what's for lunch?" I don't look at it as some mind-breaking revelation, it just "is." Therefore when I see a character who happens to be gay and then horrible things happen to them or around them, my first thought isn't a raging "THAT'S ONLY HAPPENING BECAUSE THEY'RE GAY!" - it's more "damn, they've got it bad." And their sexuality doesn't register in that train of thought.

It has nothing to do with personal experiences.  I'm happy to be gay too.

I'm not talking about individual characters, but am looking from a broader perspective and comparing how asari/female pairings are depicted in game alongside asari/male pairings.  Also, the fact that asari have to go outside their own species (all female) to 'mate' is a load of crap.  Especially when we mostly see them only 'happy' with another male alien.  The big picture message is bad.

[MisterDyslexo]

Walrusninja wrote...

Indeed homosexuality is a big deal, you say "people" make it so, but then ... homosexuals make it a big deal just as much:? It's a big circle, it really is. EVERYONE needs to move on, not just "straights" or x,y and z people.

I'm not flaming you or anything, but its not really something you can understand all that much unless you been victimized because of what you are or treated with less rights. I personally don't have such a great understanding because I'm still in the closet (DADT). I like to point at the old South Park episode where Randy Marsh, Stan's dad, is on Wheel of Fortune, says the n word. Trhoughout the episode Stan is like "I get what you're going through... yada yada yada we cool?", and finally at the end he realizes the truth that he just doesn't get it, because he's never been in that position where he's been discriminated against. I can atest to be racially discriminated against, but thats still a different thing.

My point it that you just don't quite get it, and thats okay. Just be self-aware that you don't quite get it, and things will work out better for you over time.

[Pacifien]

This is just a reminder to try to keep the discussion focused on the Mass Effect series. Once it goes into a real world sociopolitical discussion, things tend to get ugly. Thank you.

[Walrusninja]

I've commented on the relationships above and stated clearly that I don't give them a free pass on that. Nor do I give them a "free pass" on anything otherwise I wouldn't be taking part in this discussion. I simply disagree with you. The inability to find mid-grounds, to accept progress, and to really truely ditch the stigmas is what'll keep them intact. Nothing I can do, and I reckon Bioware are kind of in the same boat.

Is anything they do going to be enough? Will the positives be totally overlooked? Will deeper meaning be looked for in every single decision they make?

You know Mass Effect is in most "top 10 most controversial games" lists simply for having romance? It was blown out of proportion wildly by the press. Bioware can't just fix the entire world with the wave of a wand or appease to everyone, they are however making an effort, unlike most companies. That however, is shot down. These problems exist, Bioware is making more progress than most. the problems are not their fault though, and they can't tell the rest of the world to drop their problems so that they can do exactly what they want in game development.

Apologies if that goes against your post Pacifien, I was writing mine before yours was up.

Modifié par Walrusninja, 17 décembre 2010 - 06:32 .

[Crimmsonwind]

jlb524 wrote...

AshiraShepard wrote...

jlb524 wrote...


I don't think it should be a big deal, but I am saying it is a big deal.  I'm also saying that it is often used to exploit and put down gay persons.

Sexuality is a big deal for gay people b/c people make it so.  The same does not go for straight people (as their sexuality is never a 'big deal'). 

I'm sorry, but I'm not in that group just yet.

Maybe I'm spoilt in this regard, because I've not had a problem with being who I am (aside from one or two online interactions, but those don't matter after a while). I guess accepting family and friends make me see it as less of a "big deal" and more "oh hey, I'm gay...now what's for lunch?" I don't look at it as some mind-breaking revelation, it just "is." Therefore when I see a character who happens to be gay and then horrible things happen to them or around them, my first thought isn't a raging "THAT'S ONLY HAPPENING BECAUSE THEY'RE GAY!" - it's more "damn, they've got it bad." And their sexuality doesn't register in that train of thought.

It has nothing to do with personal experiences.  I'm happy to be gay too.

I'm not talking about individual characters, but am looking from a broader perspective and comparing how asari/female pairings are depicted in game alongside asari/male pairings.  Also, the fact that asari have to go outside their own species (all female) to 'mate' is a load of crap.  Especially when we mostly see them only 'happy' with another male alien.  The big picture message is bad.

One last thing before I go: They don't have to mate with people outside their species; like Liara says, they would have died out long ago if that was the case. It just severely lessens the chance of the AY gene popping up in their child. There have been plenty of Pureblood couples presented that had perfectly healthy pureblood children. Liara, for one. And again, they don't have to mate with male aliens.

[Crimmsonwind]

Pacifien wrote...

This is just a reminder to try to keep the discussion focused on the Mass Effect series. Once it goes into a real world sociopolitical discussion, things tend to get ugly. Thank you.

  I needed a real world example. I wasn't bashing anything. Just proving that it's plausible.

Modifié par Crimmsonwind, 17 décembre 2010 - 06:32 .

[Eromenos]

Crimmsonwind wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

The FemShep/Liara relationship is quite optional.  Most will never see it as, according to statistics, 80% play as a Male Shepard.  

Also, asari talking to females doesn't imply a romantic relationship.  All of the clearly defined relationships involving asari most definitely involve a male alien. 

About Morinth...she didn't have to be a pshyco killer and she didn't have to be shown killing a bi-curious young woman.  There were other possibilities they could have explored.

I'm with the other guys, here. You're placing a lot of emphasis on sexuality that I don't think was present. If I'm remembering Nef's journal correctly, she wasn't intrigued because Morinth was biologically female; she was intrigued because some other sentient, walking, talking, breathing creature was actually interested in her. That whole experience was utterly new to her.

"But she's a girl, like me..." Something to that nature. Meant to be easily missed in the middle of Nef's skating thoughts, yet BioWare placed it there because an evil lesbian black widow killing the pitiful human girl just wasn't enough...she had to have "corrupted" the otherwise pure and straight girl as well.

[Ashira Shepard]

*facepalm*

I'm done trying to induce logic, I need sleep.

Enjoy the unrelenting misery of what you absolutely  MUST see no matter what anyone says.

Modifié par AshiraShepard, 17 décembre 2010 - 06:34 .

[Crimmsonwind]

Eromenos wrote...

Crimmsonwind wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

The FemShep/Liara relationship is quite optional.  Most will never see it as, according to statistics, 80% play as a Male Shepard.  

Also, asari talking to females doesn't imply a romantic relationship.  All of the clearly defined relationships involving asari most definitely involve a male alien. 

About Morinth...she didn't have to be a pshyco killer and she didn't have to be shown killing a bi-curious young woman.  There were other possibilities they could have explored.

I'm with the other guys, here. You're placing a lot of emphasis on sexuality that I don't think was present. If I'm remembering Nef's journal correctly, she wasn't intrigued because Morinth was biologically female; she was intrigued because some other sentient, walking, talking, breathing creature was actually interested in her. That whole experience was utterly new to her.

"But she's a girl, like me..." Something to that nature. Meant to be easily missed in the middle of Nef's skating thoughts, yet BioWare placed it there because an evil lesbian black widow killing the pitiful human girl just wasn't enough...she had to have "corrupted" the otherwise pure and straight girl as well.

See, now you're putting the emphasis on Morinth's "evil lesbianness." Not Bioware, you.

[jlb524]

Crimmsonwind wrote...
Every couple has tragedy, regardless of sexual orientation. I'm glad we're seeing tragedy, it means they're real people dealing with real situations. The couples we see in the game are not the only couples in the entire galaxy. Somewhere out there is a happy asari/human female couple. Do we have to see them? No.

Yes, but these 'happy asari/human female' couples are not shown in game whereas the happy asari/male alien couples are...this is the problem.  It doesn't matter if we know they exist....the critique here is what is being shown in the actual game.

Crimmsonwind wrote...
The solution is to stop reading freakishly deep into things that are either not there, or are just barely there but are so unintentional that almost nobody noticed. There is the opportunity to have a f/f relationship, if one chooses to pursue it. It has it's rough patch, just like every relationship. The same-sex relationship is not some mythical legend. It is a real thing, had by real people, and just like other couples, we have our ups and downs.

But, I love reading into things deeply.   Again, the same-sex relationships are always show as having 'downs' and no 'ups' and this is the problem.   We see, by contrast, hetero relationships that have 'ups' to go with the 'downs'.

Crimmsonwind wrote...

As someone who plays for both teams, so to speak, I feel the need to repeat that I have never felt any impression that Bioware was alluding to the idea that same-sex romance is some evil, impure thing, not even to the slightest degree. There is no "meta perspective" in most cases. Sometimes a banana is just a banana, or an orange is just an orange, or a flying purple people eater is just a flying purple people eater. Morinth is a character with psychological issues and a genetic disorder that affects her race (again I remind you that certain regions on our very planet suffer from ethnicity-specific diseases, this is not some strange and uncommon thing; humanity has plenty of diseases and genetic defects that affect only humanity and cannot be passed to other species). Nef is a quiet and quirky individual, who happens to be the perfect target, regardless of her gender. The asari are a vast group of individual and unique characters. I'm not really sure what else I can possibly say, because I have a feeling you're just not gonna get it. You're too dead-set on feeling persecuted.

There is always a meta-perspective.

[Ashira Shepard]

Crimmsonwind wrote...
 See, now you're putting the emphasis on Morinth's "evil lesbianness." Not Bioware, you.

THIS! 

[Crimmsonwind]

You guys are unbelievable sometimes.



Good night.

[jlb524]

rynluna wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

It has nothing to do with personal experiences.  I'm happy to be gay too.

I'm not talking about individual characters, but am looking from a broader perspective and comparing how asari/female pairings are depicted in game alongside asari/male pairings.  Also, the fact that asari have to go outside their own species (all female) to 'mate' is a load of crap.  Especially when we mostly see them only 'happy' with another male alien.  The big picture message is bad.

I agree and I find it pretty sad that the formally all lesbian race suddenly went gaga for males and it's an abomination among their people if an asari has a relationship with another asari.  Couple that with the Nef/Morinth thing and yeah, I think it sucks how some f/f relationships are portrayed in the game.

Thank you!!!!! 

[jlb524]

AshiraShepard wrote...

Crimmsonwind wrote...
 See, now you're putting the emphasis on Morinth's "evil lesbianness." Not Bioware, you.

THIS! 

Bioware made Morinth.

[Ashira Shepard]

jlb524 wrote...

Bioware made Morinth.

Yes.
A deep, interesting, emotionally charged, vampiric character. Not some unholy
harbinger of lesbian evilness - she went after anyone with that creative
spark, regardless of their gender.

Stop trying to protray a character that isn't there.

Modifié par AshiraShepard, 17 décembre 2010 - 06:46 .

[Pacifien]

Might I suggest continuing Morinth discussion in a thread dedicated to Morinth?

[Ashira Shepard]

I'll actually go to sleep now so the discussion isn't ruined.

[MisterDyslexo]

I disagree with you jib, but I do see where you're coming from. I'll be the first to admit I don't know quite where you're coming from. I'm still in the closet (military), but I've been discriminated against racially being an extreme minority where I had lived for quite some time, and somewhat get what you're seeing. I'm a little more sensitive to racial issues because of that, and I assume the same with you for LGBT issues. I would say I often look into things too much because of that too, and quite frankly I think thats whats happening with your view of asari. Not that its a bad thing to be aware of one group's perception in society, but I believe you're having a little case of oversensitivity with this, and respectfully disagree with your opinion.

With that, I'll go to bed. Lets try to get this forum back on track so it doesn't feel the wrath of Pacifien's mighty ban hammer, and maybe this could be brought back up another time.

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 17 décembre 2010 - 06:50 .

[jlb524]

AshiraShepard wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Bioware made Morinth.

Yes.
A deep, interesting, emotionally charged, vampiric character. Not some unholy
harbinger of lesbian evilness - she went after anyone with that creative
spark, regardless of their gender.

Stop trying to protray a character that isn't there.

I didn't find her all that interesting, tbh.  Also, she was only shown in game as preying on a young woman.  Not a man.

[Ashira Shepard]

Okay, so I'm not sleeping.



Morinth preys on Shepard. Regardless of gender.



NOW I'll go to sleep. Or at least leave the god damn site alone. Third times to the wretched charm.