9243 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

I disagree with you jib, but I do see where you're coming from. I'll be the first to admit I don't know quite where you're coming from. I'm still in the closet (military), but I've been discriminated against racially being an extreme minority where I had lived for quite some time, and somewhat get what you're seeing. I'm a little more sensitive to racial issues because of that, and I assume the same with you for LGBT issues. I would say I often look into things too much because of that too, and quite frankly I think thats whats happening with your view of asari. Not that its a bad thing to be aware of one group's perception in society, but I believe you're having a little case of oversensitivity with this, and respectfully disagree with your opinion.

With that, I'll go to bed. Lets try to get this forum back on track so it doesn't feel the wrath of Pacifien's mighty ban hammer, and maybe this could be brought back up another time.

So, you think it bad to point out subtext in any media that could paint a negative view of homosexuals or racial minorities?

[Eromenos]

Crimmsonwind wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

Crimmsonwind wrote...

Nef ended up dead because Morinth was a psycho-****.

I never got this vibe that "lesbians and same-sex parents are evil" in ME. Quite the opposite for me, in fact. The asari don't have to mate with other males to keep the A-Y from happening, they can mate with human females, quarian females, turian females, etc. It's a genetic issue, not unlike certain things that happen among humans. Certain regions and ethnicities are prone to certain diseases and illnesses. It's the same thing with the asari, just on a larger scale.

Honestly, I think you guys may be reading into something just for the sake of shaking your fist at Bioware. I love a lot of you, but come on.

Oh, they could. Yet BioWare is unwilling to establish happy, loving, same-sex relationships that can last. Without imposing streaks of crime or tragedy on them.

That's why all their non-pureblood asari are equipped with only husbands, boyfriends, or dads as family members. Some might infer that the fathers being verbally alluded to were female non-asari, but that does not excuse BioWare from its refusal to establish any such concrete portrait.

Every couple has tragedy, regardless of sexual orientation. I'm glad we're seeing tragedy, it means they're real people dealing with real situations. The couples we see in the game are not the only couples in the entire galaxy. Somewhere out there is a happy asari/human female couple. Do we have to see them? No. The solution is to stop reading freakishly deep into things that are either not there, or are just barely there but are so unintentional that almost nobody noticed. There is the opportunity to have a f/f relationship, if one chooses to pursue it. It has it's rough patch, just like every relationship. The same-sex relationship is not some mythical legend. It is a real thing, had by real people, and just like other couples, we have our ups and downs.

Ugh, I'd love to keep talking about this but I've got a ton of work to do and sleep to catch up on. Closing words:

As someone who plays for both teams, so to speak, I feel the need to repeat that I have never felt any impression that Bioware was alluding to the idea that same-sex romance is some evil, impure thing, not even to the slightest degree. There is no "meta perspective" in most cases. Sometimes a banana is just a banana, or an orange is just an orange, or a flying purple people eater is just a flying purple people eater. Morinth is a character with psychological issues and a genetic disorder that affects her race (again I remind you that certain regions on our very planet suffer from ethnicity-specific diseases, this is not some strange and uncommon thing; humanity has plenty of diseases and genetic defects that affect only humanity and cannot be passed to other species). Nef is a quiet and quirky individual, who happens to be the perfect target, regardless of her gender. The asari are a vast group of individual and unique characters. I'm not really sure what else I can possibly say, because I have a feeling you're just not gonna get it. You're too dead-set on feeling persecuted.

"Somewhere out there is a happy asari/human female couple. Do we have to see them? No."

Do we have to NEVER see them? Yes, according to BioWare's actions. What other explanation can there be for why established same-sex couples are excluded from ME's narrative? It is not possible to run around the Citadel or Nos Astra without hearing the Blue Rose's petty predicament, the whining over bloodlines, heterosexually-induced pregnancies, or male aliens hitting on asari.

"The asari are a vast group of individual and unique characters. I'm not
really sure what else I can possibly say, because I have a feeling
you're just not gonna get it. You're too dead-set on feeling persecuted."

Of all the three alien Council races, the asari have lived up the least to the promises regarding their society in the codex. Shrewed businesswomen and powerful matriarchs are in the minority of what we run in to, for they are not accessible to young straight male gamers compared with the maiden strippers and mercenaries who are more "hungry for it." Asari bear the unfortunate heavy burden of being the sole female aliens actually portrayed in ME, aside for quarians. Guess whose persuasions they're made to cater to? Yes, Tali was bent to that methodology in ME2. "Why not?" is the question that BioWare and fanboys treat as a courtesy reflex.

Modifié par Eromenos, 17 décembre 2010 - 06:58 .

[MisterDyslexo]

jlb524 wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...

I disagree with you jib, but I do see where you're coming from. I'll be the first to admit I don't know quite where you're coming from. I'm still in the closet (military), but I've been discriminated against racially being an extreme minority where I had lived for quite some time, and somewhat get what you're seeing. I'm a little more sensitive to racial issues because of that, and I assume the same with you for LGBT issues. I would say I often look into things too much because of that too, and quite frankly I think thats whats happening with your view of asari. Not that its a bad thing to be aware of one group's perception in society, but I believe you're having a little case of oversensitivity with this, and respectfully disagree with your opinion.

With that, I'll go to bed. Lets try to get this forum back on track so it doesn't feel the wrath of Pacifien's mighty ban hammer, and maybe this could be brought back up another time.

So, you think it bad to point out subtext in any media that could paint a negative view of homosexuals or racial minorities?

No, quite the opposite. I think its good. I tried to say that in the post. I'm just saying that if it appears to be there doesn't mean it is, and that not everything is as (intentionally) deep as we think it is, and that we have to say to ourselves "Okay, I might be over-reacting. Lets get some other takes on it."

I also think its a good idea to get this thread back on topic, since this is more societal and politcal than what it has to do with Mass Effect.

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 17 décembre 2010 - 06:57 .

[jlb524]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

No, quite the opposite. I think its good. I tried to say that in the post. I'm just saying that if it appears to be there doesn't mean it is, and that not everything is as (intentionally) deep as we think it is, and that we have to say to ourselves "Okay, I might be over-reacting. Lets get some other takes on it."

I also think its a good idea to get this thread back on topic, since this is more societal and politcal than what it has to do with Mass Effect.

I don't believe these things are 'intentional'.  They are just an unintentional product of living in a heteronormative world.

[kill_switch_423]

First, I'd like to say that as a straight man I sometime like to escape reality and roleplay homosexual characters. I so indeed support a m/m romance in ME3, especially since there are two f/f in the series already AND DA tackled the issue well.



Now, onto the issue at hand...



I think everyone should be happy that Bioware is taking steps towards acceptance by allowing any form of homosexual options at all. Give me a list of other games that pull it off as well as Bioware does, seriously.



As to the ratio of 'healthy' homosexual couples to 'healthy' hetero couples... you know, it could do with the fact that we rarely see females of other alien races at all. With no female Turians, Elcor, Volus, Salarians, or Hanar, of course there won't be very many portrayals of interspecies romance outside of FemAsari/MaleHuman/Turian/Salarian/flying spaghetti monster or what have you because the character models for females in those species just don't exist. Bioware isn't trying to send out any "homos are bad m'kay" statement, I think they just assume that because we are told they exist, we can take it on good faith that they are there. Just because they aren't shoved in our faces doesn't mean they don't exist.

[Walrusninja]

Nicely said Killswitch.

[adneate]

kill_switch_423 wrote...
I think everyone should be happy that Bioware is taking steps towards acceptance by allowing any form of homosexual options at all. Give me a list of other games that pull it off as well as Bioware does, seriously.

Well as much as people keeping trying to pretend that BioWare games exist in some sort of cultural vacuum they don't. Other media is handeling these issues way better and Mass Effect is trying very hard to simply avoid the issue and act like there is no homosexuality in Mass Effect at all. How is sticking you head in the sand and pretending there are no gays in your world making any steps towards acceptance of homosexuals?

[jlb524]

kill_switch_423 wrote...

As to the ratio of 'healthy' homosexual couples to 'healthy' hetero couples... you know, it could do with the fact that we rarely see females of other alien races at all. With no female Turians, Elcor, Volus, Salarians, or Hanar, of course there won't be very many portrayals of interspecies romance outside of FemAsari/MaleHuman/Turian/Salarian/flying spaghetti monster or what have you because the character models for females in those species just don't exist. Bioware isn't trying to send out any "homos are bad m'kay" statement, I think they just assume that because we are told they exist, we can take it on good faith that they are there. Just because they aren't shoved in our faces doesn't mean they don't exist.

But, I want to see them.  They do have female humans/asari/quarians.

Why not show a healthy relationship between an asari and a quarian female?  Or a human female?

Not everyone knows that these exist if they are not shown in game.

[Eromenos]

Walrusninja wrote...

I've commented on the relationships above and stated clearly that I don't give them a free pass on that. Nor do I give them a "free pass" on anything otherwise I wouldn't be taking part in this discussion. I simply disagree with you. The inability to find mid-grounds, to accept progress, and to really truely ditch the stigmas is what'll keep them intact. Nothing I can do, and I reckon Bioware are kind of in the same boat.

Is anything they do going to be enough? Will the positives be totally overlooked? Will deeper meaning be looked for in every single decision they make?

You know Mass Effect is in most "top 10 most controversial games" lists simply for having romance? It was blown out of proportion wildly by the press. Bioware can't just fix the entire world with the wave of a wand or appease to everyone, they are however making an effort, unlike most companies. That however, is shot down. These problems exist, Bioware is making more progress than most. the problems are not their fault though, and they can't tell the rest of the world to drop their problems so that they can do exactly what they want in game development.

Apologies if that goes against your post Pacifien, I was writing mine before yours was up.

I just see patterns where you do not. That's ok.

Yes, I look for meaning behind everything. Sometimes they're small, sometimes big. The things we're talking about are big because ME is a mass media franchise which people unconsciously accept as informal education. But about what? Well, morality and human nature perhaps. It shouldn't be impossible to imagine that scenario occurring at any wide range of socioeconomic statuses among the audiences.

What does this teach in relation to the thread-topic? That girls are "flexible and willing to accomodate/compromise" in many more ways than one. Willful lesbians must either kill or be killed. Gay men can't ever be the heroes. The only families which last have hetero parents. I could name more, but I'm struggling to make it to the end of the thread before lights out.

I see no effort being made, as you suggested. ME was a step back from its predecessor in the BioWare line-up, Jade Empire. JE's npcs were annoying and their same-sex interactions were diluted compared with their straight interactions, but it did allow for a close-to-full M/M with its leading male squadmate. That is not something you see more than once every other blue moon in a mainstream videogame. ME1 and ME2 have signified a retreat from that progress in every way and more.

[Walrusninja]

And the circle starts again.... well, I'm out.

Normally avoid threads like this like the plague for their circular discussion properties, and clear sides, but it's been interesting. Enjoy.

Edit: this was made before the post above it. I'll stick by what I said though as it still very much applies. Out.

Modifié par Walrusninja, 17 décembre 2010 - 07:19 .

[kill_switch_423]

adneate wrote...

kill_switch_423 wrote...
I think everyone should be happy that Bioware is taking steps towards acceptance by allowing any form of homosexual options at all. Give me a list of other games that pull it off as well as Bioware does, seriously.

Well as much as people keeping trying to pretend that BioWare games exist in some sort of cultural vacuum they don't. Other media is handeling these issues way better and Mass Effect is trying very hard to simply avoid the issue and act like there is no homosexuality in Mass Effect at all. How is sticking you head in the sand and pretending there are no gays in your world making any steps towards acceptance of homosexuals?

What solid evidence do you have that Mass Effect is trying so hard to avoid the issue?  Also, you have to admit that Video Games hold a much different place in our culture than movies, books, etc.  How is taking a step forward among your medium shot down simply because completely different mediums have already adressed the issue?  For the record, I can't think of a single major film recently that was as much of a relative success as ME or DA that tackled the issue.  Please do correct me if I'm wrong, I just can't think of it at the moment.

[Eromenos]

Crimmsonwind wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

Crimmsonwind wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

The FemShep/Liara relationship is quite optional.  Most will never see it as, according to statistics, 80% play as a Male Shepard.  

Also, asari talking to females doesn't imply a romantic relationship.  All of the clearly defined relationships involving asari most definitely involve a male alien. 

About Morinth...she didn't have to be a pshyco killer and she didn't have to be shown killing a bi-curious young woman.  There were other possibilities they could have explored.

I'm with the other guys, here. You're placing a lot of emphasis on sexuality that I don't think was present. If I'm remembering Nef's journal correctly, she wasn't intrigued because Morinth was biologically female; she was intrigued because some other sentient, walking, talking, breathing creature was actually interested in her. That whole experience was utterly new to her.

"But she's a girl, like me..." Something to that nature. Meant to be easily missed in the middle of Nef's skating thoughts, yet BioWare placed it there because an evil lesbian black widow killing the pitiful human girl just wasn't enough...she had to have "corrupted" the otherwise pure and straight girl as well.

See, now you're putting the emphasis on Morinth's "evil lesbianness." Not Bioware, you.

My dislike is for BioWare's unreasonable choice to entangle her established sexuality with a streak of villainy. How should I say this? Basic Instinct should be 20 years behind us and yet BioWare is willing to exploit the tried and true even at the expense of the queer community's image. We do not hold power or numbers among the heaviest segments of society, so it is not in our best interests to allow for one-sided slants against us to be dominant.

[MisterDyslexo]

Jib, I understand what you mean by wanting to see it, and the representation, but don't you think it'd be better for people to see this between the protagonist and a LI? Or maybe even between two major characters (I hate to say it but Miranda & Jack). I mean I know not everybody's going to do that, but not many people are going take what Ilium_Asari_02 said to Ilium_FHuman_07 to heart. If anybody's looking as deeply as you are at this, its not going to sway their minds in any real way, and if they're not seeing it-well they're not seeing it.

Sorry, my brain's a little too fried to respond intelligently, so I'll pick up with this later if its still going on. If I'm coming of disrespectful or anything I apologize for not thinking it out too much. Its been a very long day, so my post may not make too much sense or whatever. I'm rambling and going to bed now

Final note: Lets not get this htread locked. Wr can make a thread for the asari/morinth thing elsewhere.

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 17 décembre 2010 - 07:28 .

[Ryzaki]

Phantom Actuality wrote...

adneate wrote...
Other media is handeling these issues way better and Mass Effect is trying very hard to simply avoid the issue and act like there is no homosexuality in Mass Effect at all.

And I see absolutely nothing wrong with that at all.  That's their choice.   Heavan forbid if I ever live in a police state  where a game developer or writer is forced into writing stories that only fit a certain viewpoint.

Right so they should place F/F romances in the game for the sake of titllation and not get called on it.

After all the Asari aren't even female even when the codex describes them as an all female race. <_<

Edit: The hilarity in this? I wouldn't have cared if there was no F/F in the game along with M/M. The presence of one and not the other (and the first uses a weak discount lesbians excuse) is frankly disgusting. And I say this a hetero female.

Wait. That was a bit strong. It's a really strong case of unfourtante implications. And really BW shouldn't have done it in the first place if they didn't plan on doing it all the way. As my mom says "If you're gonna half-ass it don't do it at all." 

2nd Edit: Jlib's point isn't that Morinth is evil. It's that morinth is evil without a counterbalance. (Which I don't find to be true because Samara is her counterbalance).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 décembre 2010 - 07:32 .

[kill_switch_423]

Eromenos wrote...

Crimmsonwind wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

Crimmsonwind wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

The FemShep/Liara relationship is quite optional.  Most will never see it as, according to statistics, 80% play as a Male Shepard.  

Also, asari talking to females doesn't imply a romantic relationship.  All of the clearly defined relationships involving asari most definitely involve a male alien. 

About Morinth...she didn't have to be a pshyco killer and she didn't have to be shown killing a bi-curious young woman.  There were other possibilities they could have explored.

I'm with the other guys, here. You're placing a lot of emphasis on sexuality that I don't think was present. If I'm remembering Nef's journal correctly, she wasn't intrigued because Morinth was biologically female; she was intrigued because some other sentient, walking, talking, breathing creature was actually interested in her. That whole experience was utterly new to her.

"But she's a girl, like me..." Something to that nature. Meant to be easily missed in the middle of Nef's skating thoughts, yet BioWare placed it there because an evil lesbian black widow killing the pitiful human girl just wasn't enough...she had to have "corrupted" the otherwise pure and straight girl as well.

See, now you're putting the emphasis on Morinth's "evil lesbianness." Not Bioware, you.

My dislike is for BioWare's unreasonable choice to entangle her established sexuality with a streak of villainy. How should I say this? Basic Instinct should be 20 years behind us and yet BioWare is willing to exploit the tried and true even at the expense of the queer community's image. We do not hold power or numbers among the heaviest segments of society, so it is not in our best interests to allow for one-sided slants against us to be dominant.

So straight villains are ok, but gays aren't allowed to be evil, ever?  I'm a little bit confused at the point you are trying to make.  I know how difficult it is to protect the image of your lifestyle (being Wiccan in a Catholic environment isn't fun) can be, but just because there is one evil bisexual in the galaxy doesn't mean BW is trying to put a negative light on your life choice.  The problem seems to stem more from our own culture than anything the games have done.

[adneate]

kill_switch_423 wrote...
What solid evidence do you have that Mass Effect is trying so hard to avoid the issue?

Right Here the series is PG-13 that means no gays.

kill_switch_423 wrote...
Also, you have to admit that Video Games hold a much different place in our culture than movies, books, etc.  How is taking a step forward among your medium shot down simply because completely different mediums have already adressed the issue? 

Well Mass Effect hasn't taken that step so it deserves to be shot down.

kill_switch_423 wrote...
For the record, I can't think of a single major film recently that was as much of a relative success as ME or DA that tackled the issue.  Please do correct me if I'm wrong, I just can't think of it at the moment.

As I pointed out ME doesn't address the issue and DA doesn't address it either it A) creates a world in which homosexuality doesn't have the same connotations and It doesn't really have homosexual characters it has Bisexual characters which are not the same.

[Eromenos]

AshiraShepard wrote...

Okay, so I'm not sleeping.

Morinth preys on Shepard. Regardless of gender.

NOW I'll go to sleep. Or at least leave the god damn site alone. Third times to the wretched charm.

No kidding. But you and I know that a woman who kills the girls she sleeps with becomes instantly branded lesbian forever by a significant portion of the general population. See any similarities to the ignorance toward priests who molest boys? This happens to be the "evil-lesbian" stereotype persisting here.

As for her interest in Shepard, the flexible nature of her sexuality is owed to fanboy titillation. Any female in ME1 and ME2 who is accessible for F/F is also compelled to make herself available for M/F too. There haven't been any exceptions. BioWare doesn't allow for the opposite picture to occur, though. Exclusively straight females are permissible with them, but exclusively gay females are not. The "men" can't be definitively told no.

Modifié par Eromenos, 17 décembre 2010 - 07:33 .

[jlb524]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Jib, I understand what you mean by wanting to see it, and the representation, but don't you think it'd be better for people to see this between the protagonist and a LI? Or maybe even between two major characters (I hate to say it but Miranda & Jack). I mean I know not everybody's going to do that, but not many people are going take what Ilium_Asari_02 said to Ilium_FHuman_07 to heart. If anybody's looking as deeply as you are at this, its not going to sway their minds in any real way, and if they're not seeing it-well they're not seeing it.

But, most don't see the gay relationship between the protagonist and LI.   Most only see the extraneous stuff between NPCs.   Most play through the game as a 'hetero' PC and their only contact with homosexuality is what is shown via NPCs.   Of course, most straight people don't notice what happens with these NPCs as it's 'business as usual' for them.  Yah, 'straight couples are good' and we see them being happy.  'Gay couples are bad'.  Most straight people will not notice it....but, gays will, as it is showing their own sexuality in a bad light and they will take it to heart.

[kill_switch_423]

adneate wrote...

kill_switch_423 wrote...
What solid evidence do you have that Mass Effect is trying so hard to avoid the issue?

Right Here the series is PG-13 that means no gays.

kill_switch_423 wrote...
Also, you have to admit that Video Games hold a much different place in our culture than movies, books, etc.  How is taking a step forward among your medium shot down simply because completely different mediums have already adressed the issue? 

Well Mass Effect hasn't taken that step so it deserves to be shot down.

kill_switch_423 wrote...
For the record, I can't think of a single major film recently that was as much of a relative success as ME or DA that tackled the issue.  Please do correct me if I'm wrong, I just can't think of it at the moment.

As I pointed out ME doesn't address the issue and DA doesn't address it either it A) creates a world in which homosexuality doesn't have the same connotations and It doesn't really have homosexual characters it has Bisexual characters which are not the same.

You just took Casey's statement out of context there.

Also, how is having at least a f/f option in ME and an m/m/ option in DA not a step forwardfor video games?

You never truly countered my third point, instead you seemed to deflect onto a different subject entirely.

[MisterDyslexo]

Eromenos wrote...

AshiraShepard wrote...

Okay, so I'm not sleeping.

Morinth preys on Shepard. Regardless of gender.

NOW I'll go to sleep. Or at least leave the god damn site alone. Third times to the wretched charm.

No kidding. But you and I know that a woman who kills the girls she sleeps with becomes instantly branded lesbian forever by a significant portion of the general population. See any similarities to the ignorance toward priests who molest boys? This happens to be the "evil-lesbian" stereotype persisting here.

Okay, you lost me. Nef appeared to be a teenager to me. Those years for most are tumultous and a time of self-discovery. If Nef were perhaps somewhat older, maybe around Shep's age, then it would be different. But I just see it as a timid girl who was unsure about her sexuality getting killed by a vampire. Vampires in fiction are generally "bisexual" because it gives them twice as many options, and their gender never really affects their character or actions. I've never seen anybody refer to Nef as a lesbian because of that. If anything, she was a bigger target because of this (as wel as her artistic ability). Morinth is 400 years old, so I think she could've learned a little something about teenagedom (?) and sexual discovery and used it.

[Ryzaki]

Phantom Actuality wrote...

That's exactly right.  News flash welcome to the real world.   Bioware is under no obligation
whatsover to publish content that only suits you're personal needs.  Same goes for every other private entity.  Sorry, but I don't have sympathy for whining.  Simple solution, if it's that terrible that there exists f/f content for the sake of titilation, and you don't like, then don't buy the product.  Buy something else, because apparently there are plenty of people who like said titilation, and that's their choice.

Right and I have no obligation to say that BW did anything grand or new with it.

It's cute though how you think your post is edgy and mature by telling me things I already know.

Also whining? Really? I wasn't aware what I was doing was whining. If anyone is "whining" one would consider it to be that post.

And if you must know I got the game used. As I probably will ME3. So yeah. I already spoke with my wallet.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 décembre 2010 - 07:42 .

[jlb524]

Phantom Actuality wrote...

That's exactly right.  News flash welcome to the real world.   Bioware is under no obligation
whatsover to publish content that only suits you're personal needs.  Same goes for every other private entity.  Sorry, but I don't have sympathy for whining.  Simple solution, if it's that terrible that there exists f/f content for the sake of titilation, and you don't like, then don't buy the product.  Buy something else, because apparently there are plenty of people who like said titilation, and that's their choice.

BW also isn't free from criticism for the same sex content they do show in game either.

If they choose to show it, they will be ripped for it if it's potentially offensive.

Modifié par jlb524, 17 décembre 2010 - 07:43 .