9243 réponses à ce sujet

[adneate]

kill_switch_423 wrote...
You just took Casey's statement out of context there.

How blind can you be? He spends forever dancing around the issue and you still won't open your eyes and see what's right in front of you.

kill_switch_423 wrote...
Also, how is having at least a f/f option in ME and an m/m/ option in DA not a step forwardfor video games?

You never truly countered my third point, instead you seemed to deflect onto a different subject entirely.

They're bisexual they're not gay characters, that sexuality is built right into the characters on a fundamental level. Leliana and Zevran aren't gay they are Bisexual, in case it wasn't obvious Bi does not equal gay. Though it's funny you accuse me of deflecting the point when you decided to deflect Mass Effect's short comings on another game by another team. Last time I checked Dragon Age wasn't Mass Effect.

[kill_switch_423]

rynluna wrote...

Bioware doesn't deserve to pat themselves on the back for their
portrayal of s/s romance in Mass Effect. There is NO m/m romance, asari/asari pairings are shown to be an abomination, you help the consort out and (renegade option) expect her to pay you back by getting to sleep with her and Nef got killed by that evil Morinth.

I mean, honestly.....that's not a step in the right direction. 

I agree m/m needs to be implemented, of course. Also, while Asari/Asari are looked down upon by other Asari, it is never stated that Asari/Femalien is looked down upon.  The renegade option with the consort is for either gender, but I suppose you'd be upset that male Shep could sleep with her while fem Shep couldn't.  Nef got killed by Morinth because she's a psychopath who preyed on creative individuals, regardless of gender.  Nef's statement about Morinth being 'female' is simply because Nef hadn't had any sort of emotion like that before, let alone homosexual interaction.  Any negative connotations seen in these examples are the fault of the ignorant viewer, not BW.

[MisterDyslexo]

This thread is getting derailed and starting wtih personal attacks. I suggest that some of you take a step away from the computer, maybe consider going to bed if you live in the western hemisphere. Right now we're just screaming at each that we agree but don't completely understand why we agree. I personally am calling it a night.

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 17 décembre 2010 - 07:45 .

[JaylaClark]

jlb524 wrote...

kill_switch_423 wrote...

As to the ratio of 'healthy' homosexual couples to 'healthy' hetero couples... you know, it could do with the fact that we rarely see females of other alien races at all. With no female Turians, Elcor, Volus, Salarians, or Hanar, of course there won't be very many portrayals of interspecies romance outside of FemAsari/MaleHuman/Turian/Salarian/flying spaghetti monster or what have you because the character models for females in those species just don't exist. Bioware isn't trying to send out any "homos are bad m'kay" statement, I think they just assume that because we are told they exist, we can take it on good faith that they are there. Just because they aren't shoved in our faces doesn't mean they don't exist.

But, I want to see them.  They do have female humans/asari/quarians.

Why not show a healthy relationship between an asari and a quarian female?  Or a human female?

Not everyone knows that these exist if they are not shown in game.

I think history could be the issue, though how valid the argument still is, is certainly up for debate.

I think it was said at one point about Star Trek: The Next Generation that supposedly, it was in the series bible that homosexuality was no longer even an issue, but the writers struggled with how to express that casually.  If they showed two men holding hands in the background of the corridor, the argument went, that would overshadow the main action to the viewer at home.  Eventually they did what I thought was a nice, if a bit Anvilicious, episode titled The Outcast which went the way of the old series in using a metaphor (androgynous race of beings, one member dares to have gender) to explain things.  But to my eyes, the series never clearly established "sentient beings are past this issue" until Rejoined, where not a single person brings up Jadzia's and Lenara's current gender as a reason why they shouldn't reconnect.  And even then, it had to be the main action of the story.

Now in the Mass Effect universe, there definitely is anecdotal evidence that lesbianism is more accepted than it is even today, to say nothing of 1995.  But the question is, to show it outside of the main character's participation... would that still distract the average player these days?  I remember that a main character being a lesbian dominated the reaction to Fear Effect 2 (so much so that I actually cannot remember anything about the game other than that fact), and that was in 2001.  Still, I think this could well explain the relative lack of any healthy homosexual relationships in games, whether PC or NPC ... although an argument can be made that at least femShep/Liara is, after LotSB, one of the healthier relationships period in the Mass Effect games.  (And as stated beforehand, these games don't tend to showcase healthy relationships at all.)

Having said that, I think that it's fully in the spirit of this topic to want to see NPC same-sex relationships.  If Veronica can casually mention her girlfriend who went off to California in Fallout New Vegas, it's not beyond the realm of possibility in this series.  And why should us girls and boys be greedy and only let our Shepards be happy?

EDITED for disasterous BBCode linkage

Modifié par JaylaClark, 17 décembre 2010 - 07:47 .

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

Eromenos wrote...

AshiraShepard wrote...

Okay, so I'm not sleeping.

Morinth preys on Shepard. Regardless of gender.

NOW I'll go to sleep. Or at least leave the god damn site alone. Third times to the wretched charm.

No kidding. But you and I know that a woman who kills the girls she sleeps with becomes instantly branded lesbian forever by a significant portion of the general population. See any similarities to the ignorance toward priests who molest boys? This happens to be the "evil-lesbian" stereotype persisting here.

As for her interest in Shepard, the flexible nature of her sexuality is owed to fanboy titillation. Any female in ME1 and ME2 who is accessible for F/F is also compelled to make herself available for M/F too. There haven't been any exceptions. BioWare doesn't allow for the opposite picture to occur, though. Exclusively straight females are permissible with them, but exclusively gay females are not. The "men" can't be definitively told no.

Have you not SEEN the unbelievible hotness that is Sheploo!?!? How could any woman NOT fall for that!!!??

[kill_switch_423]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

This thread is getting derailed and starting wtih personal attacks. I suggest that some of you take a step away from the computer, maybe consider going to bed if you live in the western hemisphere. Right now we're just screaming at each that we agree but don't completely understand why we agree. I personally am calling it a night.

Well said.  Perhaps it's my love for debate that urges me to get involved in these things.  I'm not sure why we're arguing when we all want the same thing.

[jlb524]

kill_switch_423 wrote...

I agree m/m needs to be implemented, of course. Also, while Asari/Asari are looked down upon by other Asari, it is never stated that Asari/Femalien is looked down upon.

No, but again, Asari/Femalien relationship are never depicted in game as being positive.  (not counting optional LIs)

They are a cheap one-night stand or a fatal 'crush' on another female.

[Ryzaki]

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

AshiraShepard wrote...

Okay, so I'm not sleeping.

Morinth preys on Shepard. Regardless of gender.

NOW I'll go to sleep. Or at least leave the god damn site alone. Third times to the wretched charm.

No kidding. But you and I know that a woman who kills the girls she sleeps with becomes instantly branded lesbian forever by a significant portion of the general population. See any similarities to the ignorance toward priests who molest boys? This happens to be the "evil-lesbian" stereotype persisting here.

As for her interest in Shepard, the flexible nature of her sexuality is owed to fanboy titillation. Any female in ME1 and ME2 who is accessible for F/F is also compelled to make herself available for M/F too. There haven't been any exceptions. BioWare doesn't allow for the opposite picture to occur, though. Exclusively straight females are permissible with them, but exclusively gay females are not. The "men" can't be definitively told no.

Have you not SEEN the unbelievible hotness that is Sheploo!?!? How could any woman NOT fall for that!!!??

I can't tell if that's sarcasm but all I have to say is after playing custom Shepards Sheploo looks terrible.

[Eromenos]

kill_switch_423 wrote...

First, I'd like to say that as a straight man I sometime like to escape reality and roleplay homosexual characters. I so indeed support a m/m romance in ME3, especially since there are two f/f in the series already AND DA tackled the issue well.

Now, onto the issue at hand...

I think everyone should be happy that Bioware is taking steps towards acceptance by allowing any form of homosexual options at all. Give me a list of other games that pull it off as well as Bioware does, seriously.

As to the ratio of 'healthy' homosexual couples to 'healthy' hetero couples... you know, it could do with the fact that we rarely see females of other alien races at all. With no female Turians, Elcor, Volus, Salarians, or Hanar, of course there won't be very many portrayals of interspecies romance outside of FemAsari/MaleHuman/Turian/Salarian/flying spaghetti monster or what have you because the character models for females in those species just don't exist. Bioware isn't trying to send out any "homos are bad m'kay" statement, I think they just assume that because we are told they exist, we can take it on good faith that they are there. Just because they aren't shoved in our faces doesn't mean they don't exist.

I'm glad that you support us.

Here's an additional take on why we don't see asari with same-sex partners. BioWare fears conservative backlash if they "force" queerness onto players. Even though it'd be a simple matter to sprinkle around some asari coupled with their own kind, or with female humans or quarians, it isn't "permissible" to broadcast mundane intimate conversations between same-sex partners in a game that is "supposed to be" about Jack Bauer/James Bond in space. People's heads might just explode if they're "ambushed" by seeing/hearing two women discussing an their romantic vacation together, or about a new room they're adding to their home.

As for the non-asari/human/quarian females being absent...well, they don't have hourglass figures I assume. Such a shortcoming is perhaps as "bad or even worse" than having two hourglass women so enthralled with each other to the exclusion of any gainsayers. Two women in love, inaccessible to male interlopers(if BioWare knows what's good for it should it ever reach that stage). One alien women unattractive by modern human standards. Un-possible!

Btw...I still maintain it should be a simple matter to populate the game-world with same-sex couples on the streets using existing material. Something that should've been done with retail.

Modifié par Eromenos, 17 décembre 2010 - 07:52 .

[jlb524]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

This thread is getting derailed and starting wtih personal attacks. I suggest that some of you take a step away from the computer, maybe consider going to bed if you live in the western hemisphere. Right now we're just screaming at each that we agree but don't completely understand why we agree. I personally am calling it a night.

I don't see any personal attacks.  Plus, the thread is on topic as we are critiquing the representation of homosexual couples in Mass Effect.

Modifié par jlb524, 17 décembre 2010 - 07:50 .

[MisterDyslexo]

jlb524 wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...

This thread is getting derailed and starting wtih personal attacks. I suggest that some of you take a step away from the computer, maybe consider going to bed if you live in the western hemisphere. Right now we're just screaming at each that we agree but don't completely understand why we agree. I personally am calling it a night.

I don't see any personal attacks.  Plus, the thread is on topic as we are critiquing the representation of homosexual couples in Mass Effect.

I know this isn't you, but:

How blind can you be? He spends forever dancing around the issue and you
still won't open your eyes and see what's right in front of you.

And inevitably you'll say something that whether meant to be or not, someone will take offense to. This is a hotbutton thing, and IMO people just need to chill out for a few moments, let their mind wander just a little, and come back to it.

[Ryzaki]

Well on the subject of relaxing the subject. I really want Big Ben as a M/M option in ME3.



Granted I was pretty scathing to BW in my early post but...let bygones be bygones?



And that "lulz Asari aren't female!" was pretty facepalm inducing. I mean my *mother* facepalmed reading that nonsense.

[jlb524]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...

This thread is getting derailed and starting wtih personal attacks. I suggest that some of you take a step away from the computer, maybe consider going to bed if you live in the western hemisphere. Right now we're just screaming at each that we agree but don't completely understand why we agree. I personally am calling it a night.

I don't see any personal attacks.  Plus, the thread is on topic as we are critiquing the representation of homosexual couples in Mass Effect.

I know this isn't you, but:

How blind can you be? He spends forever dancing around the issue and you
still won't open your eyes and see what's right in front of you.

And inevitably you'll say something that whether meant to be or not, someone will take offense to. This is a hotbutton thing, and IMO people just need to chill out for a few moments, let their mind wander just a little, and come back to it.

lolwut?

[kill_switch_423]

jlb524 wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...

This thread is getting derailed and starting wtih personal attacks. I suggest that some of you take a step away from the computer, maybe consider going to bed if you live in the western hemisphere. Right now we're just screaming at each that we agree but don't completely understand why we agree. I personally am calling it a night.

I don't see any personal attacks.  Plus, the thread is on topic as we are critiquing the representation of homosexual couples in Mass Effect.

I know this isn't you, but:

How blind can you be? He spends forever dancing around the issue and you
still won't open your eyes and see what's right in front of you.

And inevitably you'll say something that whether meant to be or not, someone will take offense to. This is a hotbutton thing, and IMO people just need to chill out for a few moments, let their mind wander just a little, and come back to it.

lolwut?

He was alluding to my debate with another member.  The two of us were kind of on a path to noewhere.

[Eromenos]

kill_switch_423 wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

Crimmsonwind wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

Crimmsonwind wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

The FemShep/Liara relationship is quite optional.  Most will never see it as, according to statistics, 80% play as a Male Shepard.  

Also, asari talking to females doesn't imply a romantic relationship.  All of the clearly defined relationships involving asari most definitely involve a male alien. 

About Morinth...she didn't have to be a pshyco killer and she didn't have to be shown killing a bi-curious young woman.  There were other possibilities they could have explored.

I'm with the other guys, here. You're placing a lot of emphasis on sexuality that I don't think was present. If I'm remembering Nef's journal correctly, she wasn't intrigued because Morinth was biologically female; she was intrigued because some other sentient, walking, talking, breathing creature was actually interested in her. That whole experience was utterly new to her.

"But she's a girl, like me..." Something to that nature. Meant to be easily missed in the middle of Nef's skating thoughts, yet BioWare placed it there because an evil lesbian black widow killing the pitiful human girl just wasn't enough...she had to have "corrupted" the otherwise pure and straight girl as well.

See, now you're putting the emphasis on Morinth's "evil lesbianness." Not Bioware, you.

My dislike is for BioWare's unreasonable choice to entangle her established sexuality with a streak of villainy. How should I say this? Basic Instinct should be 20 years behind us and yet BioWare is willing to exploit the tried and true even at the expense of the queer community's image. We do not hold power or numbers among the heaviest segments of society, so it is not in our best interests to allow for one-sided slants against us to be dominant.

So straight villains are ok, but gays aren't allowed to be evil, ever?  I'm a little bit confused at the point you are trying to make.  I know how difficult it is to protect the image of your lifestyle (being Wiccan in a Catholic environment isn't fun) can be, but just because there is one evil bisexual in the galaxy doesn't mean BW is trying to put a negative light on your life choice.  The problem seems to stem more from our own culture than anything the games have done.

Gotcha. My point is that ME1 and ME2 have no gay characters, despite Morinth's personality and activities which would brand her as an evil lesbian in our own broader society. So she's made into a gay villain. We also see gay victims. But where are the gay heroes? The gay normals? Absent, because BioWare is content to rely on villainy and victimhood to categorize the queer community's presence in ME.

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

Ryzaki wrote...

Well on the subject of relaxing the subject. I really want Big Ben as a M/M option in ME3.

Granted I was pretty scathing to BW in my early post but...let bygones be bygones?

And that "lulz Asari aren't female!" was pretty facepalm inducing. I mean my *mother* facepalmed reading that nonsense.

Honestly, I don't see why this Big Ben dude is so interesting. He's just some random soldier. =/

and I don't see why people are so worked up over this. It's a game.

[adneate]

MisterDyslexo wrote...
And inevitably you'll say something that whether meant to be or not, someone will take offense to. This is a hotbutton thing, and IMO people just need to chill out for a few moments, let their mind wander just a little, and come back to it.

Which is to say shut down any discussion so everyone can go back to praising how innovative and edgy BioWare is, without any pesky interference from reality or facts.

Modifié par adneate, 17 décembre 2010 - 08:00 .

[jlb524]

Eromenos wrote...

Gotcha. My point is that ME1 and ME2 have no gay characters, despite Morinth's personality and activities which would brand her as an evil lesbian in our own broader society. So she's made into a gay villain. We also see gay victims. But where are the gay heroes? The gay normals? Absent, because BioWare is content to rely on villainy and victimhood to categorize the queer community's presence in ME.

This.

[kill_switch_423]

jlb524 wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

Gotcha. My point is that ME1 and ME2 have no gay characters, despite Morinth's personality and activities which would brand her as an evil lesbian in our own broader society. So she's made into a gay villain. We also see gay victims. But where are the gay heroes? The gay normals? Absent, because BioWare is content to rely on villainy and victimhood to categorize the queer community's presence in ME.

This.

While I can understand your view on this, I don't think BW is 'relying' on villainy and victimhood to categorize anybody.  I just think it's all been blown a little out of proportion, and that some are looking past the good in the game to focus on the bad.  Personally, I still think going from only straight options to at least a few bisexual options is at least a half step in the right direction.  After all, Bisexuality is the halfway point between Heterosexual and homosexual, correct?  I just can't recall any other games covering the subject at all as a viable option for characters.  I agree that some of the content of the game can be seen in the way you've described, however I don't think the majority will get the same impression.

@ryn:  I apologize that you thought I was calling those of you supporting the argument ignorant.  I meant that the thing you are afraid of, the people who decide that homosexuality is bad based off of the game, are ignorant.

Modifié par kill_switch_423, 17 décembre 2010 - 08:09 .

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

I also wanna add.... while I'm all for homosexuality as well as heterosexuality in mass effect (and any other game) as I think people should have as many choices as they can in a game so they can pick what suits them the best (there should be at least one strictly gay romance for a male and female, at least one bi romance, and at least one hetero for male and female).... there are a couple reasons why you don't see shepard, well dudeshep, as a gay hero or more gay romances, relationships, w/e in game...

1. B/c bioware knows that they would receive more criticism from reviewers and places like fox and religious groups.... potentially hurting their sales.

and

2. It's gonna stay that way until gays aren't perceived as evil or wrong in our society.... before it can happen in a video game, it's gotta happen IRL.

my two cents.

Modifié par xxSgt_Reed_24xx, 17 décembre 2010 - 08:11 .

[Eromenos]

kill_switch_423 wrote...

adneate wrote...

kill_switch_423 wrote...
What solid evidence do you have that Mass Effect is trying so hard to avoid the issue?

Right Here the series is PG-13 that means no gays.

kill_switch_423 wrote...
Also, you have to admit that Video Games hold a much different place in our culture than movies, books, etc.  How is taking a step forward among your medium shot down simply because completely different mediums have already adressed the issue? 

Well Mass Effect hasn't taken that step so it deserves to be shot down.

kill_switch_423 wrote...
For the record, I can't think of a single major film recently that was as much of a relative success as ME or DA that tackled the issue.  Please do correct me if I'm wrong, I just can't think of it at the moment.

As I pointed out ME doesn't address the issue and DA doesn't address it either it A) creates a world in which homosexuality doesn't have the same connotations and It doesn't really have homosexual characters it has Bisexual characters which are not the same.

You just took Casey's statement out of context there.

Also, how is having at least a f/f option in ME and an m/m/ option in DA not a step forwardfor video games?

You never truly countered my third point, instead you seemed to deflect onto a different subject entirely.

You're giving BioWare surface-level credit for their statements, which did not even say anything. Some of us are reading between the lines. Notice that both the interviewees avoided naming us like we're a dirty word. They pledged themselves instead to a PR-correct script promising vague universal appeal. They avoided the question altogether.

At least one of each in DA means nothing. Recall that Leiliana and Zevran were not allowed to be self-determining gay love interests. They were written to be acquirable by straight Wardens. BioWare only allows bisexual LIs at most. It's considered a waste and an impossible gamble to issue forth a gay lover in the squad. Why? Some straight players would welcome the diversity, but the ones who cannot stand to be shut down or who hate the queer community altogether would be forced to contend with the presence of someone who is not amenable to their wishes or beliefs. BioWare bows to such hatred, so the people who could really use the lesson are not yet forced to see the other side's experiences.

Modifié par Eromenos, 17 décembre 2010 - 08:13 .

[jlb524]

kill_switch_423 wrote...

While I can understand your view on this, I don't think BW is 'relying' on villainy and victimhood to categorize anybody.  I just think it's all been blown a little out of proportion, and that some are looking past the good in the game to focus on the bad. 

Well, I never claimed the did it intentionally.  And, what's so wrong about focusing on the 'bad' in a game?

kill_switch_423 wrote...

Personally, I still think going from only straight options to at least a few bisexual options is at least a half step in the right direction.  After all, Bisexuality is the halfway point between Heterosexual and homosexual, correct?  I just can't recall any other games covering the subject at all as a viable option for characters.  I agree that some of the content of the game can be seen in the way you've described, however I don't think the majority will get the same impression.

Of  course the majority won't get the same impression as most of them are straight (and, you know, not gay).  It's just all good and business as usual for them. 

And, bisexuality is not a half way point between gay and straight.  It's, like, it's own thing.