9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

rynluna wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
I don't have an issue with BioWares' bias against gays.  I have an issue with our society's bias against gays, which get reflected in all media (BioWare included).  It's not entirely their fault, really.

Yeah, I don't :devil:HATE Bioware for their portrayals of gays in their games but I don't believe they deserve a pat on the back for a "step in the right direction" for s/s in ME.  It was not a step in the right direction as far as I'm concerned and as I have already stated in posts above.

This I agree completely with. ME wasn't a step in the right direction at all.

It might've been had they not used the discount lesbians card and asari/asari relations were treated like the plague.

[jlb524]

Ryzaki wrote...

/blinks

What on earth are you talking about? Why are you quoting something I didn't say?

I still have no clue why Phantom Actuality keeps posting a quote you never said.

And, I still see no personal attacks in this thread.   Why do people keep mentioning it?

[Ryzaki]

Phantom Actuality wrote...


Who else was Ryzaki responding to whenever he/she decided to define the word contradiction?

It is addressed to you but I misread the post quoted.

Who is this post addressed to?

You but it was an  misunderstanding.


Regardless I apologize for jumping on you so fast. Your little snide insults were pissing me off.

As long as you don't actually think believe ME was BW being cowardly and explotive while DA was being accepting the two of us are just fine.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 décembre 2010 - 09:07 .

[kill_switch_423]

Seems my own tiredness has caused a bit of a miscommunication on my part. Of course Bi is it's own thing in actuality, but the way much of mainstream society sees it, it's not. I'm not giving my own opinion, just what I've gathered to be the majority's. The sooner society accepts and portrays more bisexuals, the closer society is to accepting homosexuals as well. That was my point.



I respect you all for sticking to your arguments so closely, and I understand how much these issues mean to the homosexual community. I just think that the issue is less with ME and more with the way society will perceive it.



With that, I sincerely hope that homosexuality continues to gain acceptance in all forms of culture, and while I personally believe ME is headed (relatively) in the right direction, many of you do not. That's the thing about opinion. Hopefully ME3 will bring more attention to the implied healthy Asari/FemAlien/Human relationships, as well as rectifying the f/f but no m/m double-standard. It's been a fun debate, now I'm off to bed.

[jlb524]

kill_switch_423 wrote...

With that, I sincerely hope that homosexuality continues to gain acceptance in all forms of culture, and while I personally believe ME is headed (relatively) in the right direction, many of you do not. That's the thing about opinion. Hopefully ME3 will bring more attention to the implied healthy Asari/FemAlien/Human relationships, as well as rectifying the f/f but no m/m double-standard. It's been a fun debate, now I'm off to bed.

Thank you and good night!

When I debate, I tend to focus on what should be moreso than what is.  Damn philosophy minor.

[Ryzaki]

Edit: Regardless what I posted wasn't a contradiction anyways. ME was supposed to be BW's big budget title and they had already gotten negative press because of the sex scandal. So taking out M/M options could've been because they didn't want to ****** off their potential fanbase. It explains why we get ridculous things like Miranda's catsuit despite not getting them in earlier BW's game. (Sure the outfits were sexy but they were never so ridiculously exploitative). ME was also I believe more aimed at the action gamers market while DAO was to the fans of BG.

Apparently BW thinks BG gamers are better equipped to handle homosexuality than action gamers.

Remember DAO was supposed to be a PC exclusive game. It was supposed to be very retro and not aimed at the 16 year old boy demographic (despite what the ads would tell you). Meanwhile ME had a very teenaged feel to me. Sexy women who do practically everything for the fetish fuel of the male PC, unnecessary camera angles and what not. Sexy blue ailen women race who wear skimpy clothing and get hotter as they age, are described as powerful and ancient but..are just really glorified space elves. Even the sterotpyical hot wide eyed virgin female sterotype who wants your Shepard because she's "drawn" to him. (yes the last one is reaching).

ME was also a console exclusive game on launch. This could be the explanation. There is no contradiction. It is very possible BW was aiming for very different audiences and happened to think their ME audience was less accepting of homosexuality.

2nd Edit: Stop posting while I'm writing damn it!

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 décembre 2010 - 09:30 .

[jlb524]

Wasn't Kaidan supposed to be a m/m option before it was cut?

[Ryzaki]

jlb524 wrote...

Wasn't Kaidan supposed to be a m/m option before it was cut?

Yup. They somehow managed to keep the f/f option in though.

And really while I bought the "it had to be cut." excuse before after ME2 with it's 6 romances? BS. 

That's all I have to say on the matter before I laspe into a rant.

[Ryzaki]

Phantom Actuality wrote...
Ok, I'll reciprocate.  Sorry for the mixup Ryzaki.  I was playing around with you when I called you "Nostradamus:.  That's why I left a ":P" under the statement.  As far as any other snide comments, I wasn't trying to insult you, but I can see how it was received that way by you.

As far as ME and DA goes, I was only saying that it doesn't make much sense that they would fear public backlash concerning M/M in ME, and then turn around and publish DA with M/M content in it.  It pulls the teeth out of the statement. 

As far as DA being accepting and ME not, there's no doubt about that.   So, yeah, I agree with you, although I'm not going to call them "cowards", but ME certainly is not accepting of homosexual relationships.

If anything, I think it should probably be the other way around.  It would seem to be more consistent if they weren't as accepting of it in DA, and accepting of it in ME.  Not to say that I think that's how it should be.  Only that it seems to be a little more consistent, I think.  DA is a fantasy, but it reminds me of the Dark Ages/Midieval Times.  Homosexualtiy certainly wasn't accepted then, at all.  Where as ME is Sci-fi, but in the future, and I would think that homosexuality would be more accepting.  Certainly more so than in the Dark Ages.

The mixup was my fault. Tired and cranky and not realizing why I pointed out the contradiction in the first place.

Sorry if I was a little snide.

It actually does. Their were two different audiences. One was for sci-fi, shooting and action the other was for a tatical RPG two very different audiences.

Realisitcally it would be. However the audience differences led to BW believing I suppose that the reverse would be more acceptable.

[jlb524]

Ryzaki wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Wasn't Kaidan supposed to be a m/m option before it was cut?

Yup. They somehow managed to keep the f/f option in though.

And really while I bought the "it had to be cut." excuse before after ME2 with it's 6 romances? BS. 

That's all I have to say on the matter before I laspe into a rant.

Yeah, I thougt ME1 was supposed to be like JE where you had the one bi female option (Liara), the bi male (Kaidan) and the straight gal (Ashley) but they changed that up. 

[DrBobcat]

Wow. It seems that a lot has been discussed since my last visit to this thread. I'm glad to see so much passion too even if some hostility accompanied it. We'll need it if we want to have our message heard. Some may not see this as a significant issue, but I do.

This leads me to the first topic I want to discuss. Why are romances so important? Why has this topic been brought up so frequently? Some contend that "it's only a game" and that we're getting bent out of shape over nothing. There are many ways I could respond to such statements, but I'll limit myself to a few. I don't want the thread to veer off-topic and get locked.

Personally, I don't play Mass Effect (1 or 2) for the gameplay. I play because I enjoy the story. Whether it's the characters or the setting, I absolutely love the universe and feel fortunate to have experienced it. I believe that the vast majority of those in this thread, even the individuals with a more negative tone to their words, will agree with me on this point. Otherwise, why would this thread even exist?

On to my point. Romance is, undoubtedly, one of the most effective immersion tools available to any writer and that is why it is so frequently used. Every one of us knows how it feels to love and to be loved. Thus, when our virtual avatars are exposed to these same emotions, we are immediately able to empathize for them, to connect with (and alongside) them. We are pulled deeper into the story and our experience is enriched as a result. It is no longer "just a game" at this point.

That is why this topic keeps coming up. There is an obvious lack of romance options in Mass Effect for non-heterosexuals. This is a fact. Bioware's response to the matter (or lack thereof) hasn't helped either. Rather than dealing with the issue honestly and directly, they've danced around it and pretended it doesn't exist. To someone who has otherwise shown a great deal of support for the company and their products, this can come across as an insult.

We are not demanding that the all the characters in the game suddenly come down with a case of "bisexualitis." We are not demanding that for every heterosexual love interest there must be another that "bats for the other team." All that we are asking is that they approach the subject again and think about the good they could accomplish were they to change their stance. We've provided them with countless solutions to the problem. I am certain that, with all the assets they have at their disposal, they'll be able to make it work.

There is much more I could say, but it is late and I don't want others to think I am rambling.

Modifié par DrBobcat, 03 janvier 2011 - 10:08 .

[Eromenos]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Just a friendly reminder to try and stick to the topic of this thread - ways and means to potentially implement s/s romances in future Mass Effect games, including Mass Effect 3. ******-for-tat personal arguments and discussions of Bioware's motivations are off-topic, and potentially unhelpful if they detract from the point of this thread or lead to it being locked.

Having read through 9 pages, I only just found this:

Pacifen wrote...
Yes, but the problem here is that the developers are wrong and I'm right.

/Edited for really weirdly long gap. 

BioWare's motivations have everything to do with what we're calling for. If mods find another silent excuse to lock down discussion of same-sex exclusion in ME, that's as good as any opinion we'll get from BioWare.

I don't see benefits in sticking solely to mooning over being deprived from having deep romance with a same-sex human squadmate. I do agree with people who are...unhappy...with the discrimination, but it's useless to only attempt building bridges. We've been stalled at our end because the other side's efforts have been but dismissively token exploitations at their own end. "Hopefully..." is a wishful statement I still see often. Even I used to believe in BioWare's ability to self-improve out of a sense of rightness. But I've been around on-again off-again since KOTOR, and it's become clear that non-confrontational language just gives bullies an excuse to walk all over people.

I applaud the OP of this thread for being the one to try building bridges, but some of his or her apologist appeals to homophobia need not exclusively set the tone for this debate. It is unwise to entertain a belief that we shouldn't force "our" content on the mainstream. Compulsory heterosexuality is "forced" on everyone by default and or accident in these games...and yet counter to that it's always been difficult to stumble beyond the point of no return into any rare M/M. We sure don't get to witness casual same-sex couples populating the game-worlds alongside everyone else. Either everybody should receive a healthy dose of the other side's experiences, or nobody should. Realistically and ideally, the former is better.

My point is- we're not professional game reviewers who need BioWare to believe that we won't press them over something they keep running away from.

Modifié par Eromenos, 17 décembre 2010 - 06:33 .

[The Uncanny]

Eromenos wrote...
I applaud the OP of this thread for being the one to try building bridges, but some of his or her apologist appeals to homophobia need not exclusively set the tone for this debate.

Apologist?

I see your sign up date to these forums is less than a week ago... so I guess you have no idea what we went through before the Fight For the Love group, as a collective, wrote that OP. Prior to that s/s threads were getting trolled and flamed out of existence and locked before they had a chance to get started.

It is that 'apologist' OP which has given us the chance to keep a discussion going.

[Eromenos]

The Uncanny wrote...

Eromenos wrote...
I applaud the OP of this thread for being the one to try building bridges, but some of his or her apologist appeals to homophobia need not exclusively set the tone for this debate.

Apologist?

I see your sign up date to these forums is less than a week ago... so I guess you have no idea what we went through before the Fight For the Love group, as a collective, wrote that OP. Prior to that s/s threads were getting trolled and flamed out of existence and locked before they had a chance to get started.

It is that 'apologist' OP which has given us the chance to keep a discussion going.

Did you read the part where I said I've been around intermittently since KOTOR? I don't feel like digging up my past avatars' information just to post.

I'm quite familiar with the mods' penchant for playing hatchet-men when it comes to BioWare's homophobia.

http://blogs.ign.com...0/02/04/137184/ This is an apt description of what I too have gone through, in case anybody is confused.

The reason why the still-ongoing topic is segregated here is so that the mods aren't forced to drift dangerously close to coming down openly siding with one opinion or another regarding same-sex content. They could and they should, but they want to keep as many onboard as possible. BioWare refuses to ban homophobic trolls because they place the trolls' desires ahead of the queer community's dignity. BioWare refuses to ban the queer community(I think) because we represent a supplemental income which Hudson and Myzuka(?) refuse to even name, except insofar as to carefully utter that there are no same-sex "romances" in ME1 and ME2.

Modifié par Eromenos, 17 décembre 2010 - 07:10 .

[Pacifien]

Eromenos wrote...
BioWare's motivations have everything to do with what we're calling for. If mods find another silent excuse to lock down discussion of same-sex exclusion in ME, that's as good as any opinion we'll get from BioWare.

I normally tell people they should not discuss the forums on the forums, to keep to the subject at hand, but the urge to respond to this is too strong. I apologize beforehand and hope you don't use this moment of weakness on my part as an excuse to discuss the forums on the forums in other threads.

I don't work for BioWare, I work to keep these forums a civil place for all people to discuss the games without fear that someone is going to wish death upon them for their sexual orientation or to be called racist at the slightest provocation. Threads in the past have become extremely personal and inflammatory with people prone to dissecting another's every word in order to gain a foothold in their argument. Such discussions are not acceptable per the Site Rules of Conduct. I have seen forum users able to get their voices heard by BioWare without resorting to such methods, as I'm sure some Liara fans who had played Lair of the Shadow Broker might be able to tell you.

I have let other discussions about the same-sex issue continue without immediately redirecting them here. Every single one has had to be closed for vitriolic behavior. The regular participants of this thread have proven quite adept at maintaining a cool atmosphere for this discussion, and they have had many debates with dissenters along the way.

Unless someone with a BioWare tag specifically comments on an issue, beware of taking moderator actions as indicative of BioWare's position on such matters. A moderator's goal is separate from BioWare's. These forums are for the fans primarily, and they are expected to be excellent to each other.

Incidentally, whenever one finds someone being hostile, they are welcome to send a PM to a moderator to report the person. I don't let hostility run rampant for fear of picking one side or the other, hostility runs rampant because no one ever informs me when someone is being horrible. I can't be everywhere at all times so I can catch such people in the act, I depend greatly on forum users helping me out here. I don't get paid to do this, I volunteer to do this.

Modifié par Pacifien, 17 décembre 2010 - 07:24 .

[Midey77]

Strangely Shepard may be lesbian, but not gay...

[Eromenos]

Pacifien wrote...

Eromenos wrote...
BioWare's motivations have everything to do with what we're calling for. If mods find another silent excuse to lock down discussion of same-sex exclusion in ME, that's as good as any opinion we'll get from BioWare.

I normally tell people they should not discuss the forums on the forums, to keep to the subject at hand, but the urge to respond to this is too strong. I apologize beforehand and hope you don't use this moment of weakness on my part as an excuse to discuss the forums on the forums in other threads.

I don't work for BioWare, I work to keep these forums a civil place for all people to discuss the games without fear that someone is going to wish death upon them for their sexual orientation or to be called racist at the slightest provocation. Threads in the past have become extremely personal and inflammatory with people prone to dissecting another's every word in order to gain a foothold in their argument. Such discussions are not acceptable per the Site Rules of Conduct. I have seen forum users able to get their voices heard by BioWare without resorting to such methods, as I'm sure some Liara fans who had played Lair of the Shadow Broker might be able to tell you.

I have let other discussions about the same-sex issue continue without immediately redirecting them here. Every single one has had to be closed for vitriolic behavior. The regular participants of this thread have proven quite adept at maintaining a cool atmosphere for this discussion, and they have had many debates with dissenters along the way.

Unless someone with a BioWare tag specifically comments on an issue, beware of taking moderator actions as indicative of BioWare's position on such matters. A moderator's goal is separate from BioWare's. These forums are for the fans primarily, and they are expected to be excellent to each other.

Thanks for the clarification.

I take it you are not an employee of BioWare, but rather a guest like we are who has been given moderating authority out of appreciation for your willingness and efforts to maintain civility around here. Alright, you're not on their payroll, but I assume you're still subject to BioWare's oversight? I don't think I need to re-clarify my opinion of BioWare's exploitation of this issue, but I feel like you're hampered by their party line which forbids "openly" alienating one side or another for fear of bad publicity.

Yes, BioWare fears unfavorable publicity despite their protests to the contrary. Nekkid sexing in ME1 has not made any return, and the ME-verse's backwards approach to M/M and F/F is apologist appeasement IMO.

BioWare fears coming down as "too pro-gay" or "too gay-hating" so being the cowards described in that article I linked above, their solution is to only address topic derailment by, ironically, closing down volatile discussions spawned out of their own insensitive arbitrary representations of the queer community.

[Mr Zoat]

My female Shepard ended up with Ash in MA1 and Tali in MA2. In doing that I learned about Hex coding in a way that I wouldn't have if I could start a relationship by talking to them in the normal game. Restriction is the mother (or second father) of invention I suppose?

Modifié par Mr Zoat, 17 décembre 2010 - 07:44 .

[Pacifien]

Eromenos wrote...
Alright, you're not on their payroll, but I assume you're still subject to BioWare's oversight?

Not in regards to my own opinion on matters, no. I am cool with homosexuality being brought into the Mass Effect series, and have never shied away from saying so in whatever way I see fit. I can say the BioWare developers working on Mass Effect are ****** in comparison to their Dragon Age counterparts in regards to their depiction of sexuality in their series. But then I'd also have to moderate myself for resorting to insults, which are not allowed on these forums.

[axl99]

It's never nice to make presumptions about people, regardless of whether they're employees, customers or even in general.



Because there's no proof beyond circumstances, all people have are presumptions.



Fact of the matter is, the same sex thing can be argued to all high hell and not much - if at all - will be done because the preproduction is already locked down.



If I worked on a game, stayed up late nights and all that jazz, and had to put in extra time for other assets like animations and model revisions just because of a last minute decision to appeal to every fan demographic?



I think I'd be inclined to throw things, regardless whether or not I think the world won't end when same sex romances are in a game.

[Eromenos]

Pacifien wrote...

Eromenos wrote...
Alright, you're not on their payroll, but I assume you're still subject to BioWare's oversight?

Not in regards to my own opinion on matters, no. I am cool with homosexuality being brought into the Mass Effect series, and have never shied away from saying so in whatever way I see fit. I can say the BioWare developers working on Mass Effect are ****** in comparison to their Dragon Age counterparts in regards to their depiction of sexuality in their series. But then I'd also have to moderate myself for resorting to insults, which are not allowed on these forums.

Nice. I have to say, though it's good that we have a "hub" thread for this debate it also feels like the thoughts are being segregated to appease the posters who are offended just by seeing thread titles which call for M/M and non-exploitive F/F. Put in our place, away from the "nice people" who need not come across our views as often...or at all.

When a same-sex discussion thread is locked down due to trolling by homophobia, the people who need the visibility most are the ones who suffer for it. This allows homophobic posters to "game the system" for their own satisfaction, as if they lack for any appeasement from ME itself.

It remains a volatile issue in part because BioWare is afraid to talk while continuing to selectively play with it for their own advantage, but at our cost. It also stems from refusals to admit the entire thing is an ugly situation which cannot be prettied-up with optimistic excuses for BioWare's methodology.

It's...as if BioWare is attempting the non-Paragon and non-Renegade middle-road, as if that produces no consequences. This is not an enclosed debate with no impact on anything else in the big picture. Any gambit results in a qualitative shift in attitude. They should understand the concept.

Modifié par Eromenos, 17 décembre 2010 - 08:10 .

[axl99]

Ah yes. "Bioware is afraid of rocking the boat."



We have dismissed that notion.

[jlb524]

To be frank, I'd rather them not show homosexual couples at all in these games if they are going to paint them in a negative light. Either do it respectfully or don't do it at all.



This all goes back to what Eromenos is saying about BioWare trying to take the 'middle road'. They feel as if they being inclusive by adding the asari or the Morinth/Nef thing, but they are doing it in a way that these relationships never threaten the 'validity' of the heterosexual ones. Yeah, the asari go for either gender, but they won't dare show them in a loving/healthy relationship with another female alien. That might hurt someone's eyes or something. Instead, we get a bunch of hetero-asari pairings thrown at us, again, to avoid the potential 'threat' to heterosexuality that the asari could potentially pose.