9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Eromenos]

axl99 wrote...

Ah yes. "Bioware is afraid of rocking the boat."

We have dismissed that notion.

What is your explanation for BioWare's exploitation of F/F while excluding M/M?

F/F titillation is no daring achievement- Katy Perry is no friend to the queer community.

[Eromenos]

jlb524 wrote...

To be frank, I'd rather them not show homosexual couples at all in these games if they are going to paint them in a negative light. Either do it respectfully or don't do it at all.

This all goes back to what Eromenos is saying about BioWare trying to take the 'middle road'. They feel as if they being inclusive by adding the asari or the Morinth/Nef thing, but they are doing it in a way that these relationships never threaten the 'validity' of the heterosexual ones. Yeah, the asari go for either gender, but they won't dare show them in a loving/healthy relationship with another female alien. That might hurt someone's eyes or something. Instead, we get a bunch of hetero-asari pairings thrown at us, again, to avoid the potential 'threat' to heterosexuality that the asari could potentially pose.

Agreed!

[axl99]

Exploitation? Negative light? That's still a lot of presumption. And I'm certainly not that emotionally invested to be suffering for it.



Didn't Bioware already poke fun at the Asari in the first game? And include love scenes for both F/F and M/M that ultimately got cut? Make of that what you will. The stuff DID get developed in the first place.



Mass Effect is their game. Not ours. If someone higher up the food chain outside of development said "no", then "no" it is, and that filters down all the way to the marketing department.

[Eromenos]

axl99 wrote...

Exploitation? Negative light? That's still a lot of presumption. And I'm certainly not that emotionally invested to be suffering for it.

Didn't Bioware already poke fun at the Asari in the first game? And include love scenes for both F/F and M/M that ultimately got cut? Make of that what you will. The stuff DID get developed in the first place.

Mass Effect is their game. Not ours. If someone higher up the food chain outside of development said "no", then "no" it is, and that filters down all the way to the marketing department.

Poke fun how?

What is the reasoning for your perception that BioWare's F/F is above exploitation?

It's everyone's right to decode BioWare's motivation for cutting out the M/M and F/F with human squadmates. I don't revere the systems of disparity which BioWare is promoting, and certainly I don't revere BioWare itself. Their habit of exploiting queer presences while denying any culpability or responsibility has cost them my respect.

Their game is a form of mass media telecommunications whose popularity affects a broad range of people. ME's informal teachings on adult sexuality deserve to be scrutinized for their discriminatory failings.

Modifié par Eromenos, 17 décembre 2010 - 08:49 .

[Pacifien]

There are those who make the suggestion to BioWare that they add a positive homosexual element to the game and those who demand it. I don't think demands really get you far. Nobody likes to be demanded that they do something, they prefer freedom to work as they will. That's not to say we can't get a suggestion implemented in the game. You might think the result is the same, so how you go about it shouldn't matter, but psychological warfare is a subtle practice.

I certainly don't project motivations onto the company as a whole. For one, the company has already produced games that implement homosexual relationships in a positive light, so obviously there is not a company-wide directive on this manner. For two, the advancement of homosexual depictions in media is not everyone's agenda nor should I expect it to be. Perhaps they focus their fight on other matters. Tolerance and acceptance are all I ask for in this regard.

I don't think BioWare is actively looking to depict homosexual relations in a negative light, and I say this as one who supports the addition of real unambiguous homosexual relations in the game. I think BioWare is concerned with making what they feel is a great game. I would like to convince them that adding homosexual relationships along with the regular heterosexual relationships would add to the experience of a great game. Perhaps they agree, but feel like focusing on such a detail is something they'll address in a different game as they've set their ideas for Mass Effect into motion. Very sad, but not catastrophic to the cause.

And I still support Big Ben Sniper Guy for male Shepard love interest.

Modifié par Pacifien, 17 décembre 2010 - 09:04 .

[BossumBuddy]

nvm:whistle:

Modifié par BossumBuddy, 17 décembre 2010 - 09:07 .

[Ryzaki]

Pacifien wrote...


And I still support Big Ben Sniper Guy for male Shepard love interest.

Welcome to the dark side.

Edit: As for the BW doing it intentionally I don't believe so either. But it's a really ugly and damning case of unforunante implications and the holes they keep digging themselves into isn't making it any better.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 décembre 2010 - 09:10 .

[Siansonea]

Ryzaki wrote...

Pacifien wrote...


And I still support Big Ben Sniper Guy for male Shepard love interest.

Welcome to the dark side.

Ooo, me three!

[MisterDyslexo]

Ryzaki wrote...

Pacifien wrote...


And I still support Big Ben Sniper Guy for male Shepard love interest.

Welcome to the dark side.

We have cookies

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 17 décembre 2010 - 09:11 .

[jlb524]

Ryzaki wrote...

Edit: As for the BW doing it intentionally I don't believe so either. But it's a really ugly and damning case of unforunante implications and the holes they keep digging themselves into isn't making it any better.

I don't believe they are doing it intentionally either.  I've stated that a few times yesterday.

They don't work in a cultural vacuum. 

[Eromenos]

Pacifien wrote...

There are those who make the suggestion to BioWare that they add a positive homosexual element to the game and those who demand it. I don't think demands really get you far. Nobody likes to be demanded that they do something, they prefer freedom to work as they will. That's not to say we can't get a suggestion implemented in the game. You might think the result is the same, so how you go about it shouldn't matter, but psychological warfare is a subtle practice.

You misunderstand why I'm here. I'm not one to suggest any methods for implementation. They've been out there in variety and in numbers since KOTOR, and probably even before. Some were even listed by the OP. The one I favor specifically...have all LIs be approachable regardless of sex.

I'm here primarily because BioWare deserves to have its unpleasant discriminations laid bare. They're headstrong about continuing their patterns despite our protests, as we've seen. I have no illusions that ME3 will ever grant us fair inclusion after BioWare has willfully failed on every game, every patch, every DLC, and every PSA.

I knew that ME2 would exploit asari even before I played it. Experience with past BioWare games along with Hudson's carefully-worded remark excluding same-sex romances was all I needed to hear, and I was right. It's not hard for me to translate their tap-dancing.

I certainly don't project motivations onto the company as a whole. For one, the company has already produced games that implement homosexual relationships in a positive light, so obviously there is not a company-wide directive on this manner. For two, the advancement of homosexual depictions in media is not everyone's agenda nor should I expect it to be. Perhaps they focus their fight on other matters. Tolerance and acceptance are all I ask for in this regard.

I have to disagree...none of their game characters are actually homosexual. Any same-sex romances which occur are the result of active seeking with bisexual characters who are always commanded to be accessible to straight gamers. The choices are disproportionately few and lacking in quality compared to heterosexual choices. To date Juhani and Belaya are the only (inferred)gay characters I know of, but it is easy to not run into this knowledge. Even when someone is "forced to," their only course of action is to kill the surviving partner.

BioWare doesn't need to advance our cause. They just need to not exploit our existence.

I don't think BioWare is actively looking to depict homosexual relations in a negative light, and I say this as one who supports the addition of real unambiguous homosexual relations in the game. I think BioWare is concerned with making what they feel is a great game. I would like to convince them that adding homosexual relationships along with the regular heterosexual relationships would add to the experience of a great game. Perhaps they agree, but feel like focusing on such a detail is something they'll address in a different game as they've set their ideas for Mass Effect into motion. Very sad, but not catastrophic to the cause.

And I still support Big Ben Sniper Guy for male Shepard love interest.

BioWare and its supporters like to cast their token inclusions of queer people in a positive light. It's their "good deed" that equates to throwing a bone to us the minority since we're so hungry for it that we should be...grateful.

Grateful for what? We are supposedly present but in the case of ME we're not officially there. BioWare talking heads have stated that there is no homosexual action, their excuse being that hourglass-asari are neither male or female.

I support the statement jlb made earlier that either we need to be treated right or be excluded completely. That would certainly mean BioWare would have to declare a stance by default. Their middle-road exploitation is a disgusting for its attempt to get away with having everything while trying to avoid blame. BioWare persists in this attitude however, because most people have been allowing them to get away with exploitation instead of challenging BioWare's disregard for consequences impacting gamers' ideas about queer experiences.

Modifié par Eromenos, 17 décembre 2010 - 09:33 .

[jlb524]

Also, my stating "To be frank, I'd rather them not show homosexual couples at all in these games if they are going to paint them in a negative light. Either do it respectfully or don't do it at all." is a personal opinion and not a 'demand' of BioWare...they can do whatever they want and I can't stop them.

[Pacifien]

Eromenos wrote...
I support the statement jlb made earlier that either we need to be treated right or be excluded completely. That would certainly mean BioWare would have to declare a stance by default. Their middle-road exploitation is a disgusting for its attempt to get away with having everything while trying to avoid blame. BioWare persists in this attitude however, because most people have been allowing them to get away with exploitation instead of challenging BioWare's disregard for consequences impacting gamers' ideas about queer experiences.

Well, if you're intent on being offended, then this is now well established. You are offended to the point where you'd rather BioWare just not even try because their attempts are failures. You're offended to the point where you believe others are simply turning a blind eye to obvious offense. We both support depictions of homosexual romance in BioWare games, but we are not on the same side.

Is that about right? Are we crystal?

[jlb524]

Is it wrong to take offense to a media's portrayal of a minority group? Or, just wrong to express it?

[Siansonea]

I think if someone really wanted to "lay bare" BioWare's "crimes", they would take out a full-page ad in the New York Times, not rant repetitively on a membership-based online discussion board that no one follows outside of a very small community.



I have facepalmed and headdesked over BioWare's dancing around this issue in the past, but the bottom line is I still like their games, and I'm still going to buy their games, and I'm still going to play their games, even if they don't sort out this particular issue to my satisfaction quickly enough. I'm not going to turn my back on Mass Effect out of spite.



I will continue to support the Fight For The Love cause, and I'm firmly in the Big Ben Sniper For Same-Sex LI camp. If someone makes a group for that, I'll join it.

[Loup Blanc]

This thread is so gay.

Modifié par JL81, 17 décembre 2010 - 11:30 .

[Dominus]

Eromenos has certainly been thinking about this for quite some time, though I'm not quite on the same page as him. One thing I do agree with him, however, is the noted fact that there aren't necessarily pure homosexual relationships in mass effect(at least up to this point). It makes no difference to me personally, but I see what everyone else is getting at - I'd say if it feels appropriate to a particular character created, then I don't see why not, but it's not something you want to force. "Hey Ashley, now that I'm no longer with cerberus, wanna have some lesbo lovin?" I can see where eromenos is coming from, but saying Bioware believes in "a middle-road exploitation" is a bit much.

[Eromenos]

Pacifien wrote...

Eromenos wrote...
I support the statement jlb made earlier that either we need to be treated right or be excluded completely. That would certainly mean BioWare would have to declare a stance by default. Their middle-road exploitation is a disgusting for its attempt to get away with having everything while trying to avoid blame. BioWare persists in this attitude however, because most people have been allowing them to get away with exploitation instead of challenging BioWare's disregard for consequences impacting gamers' ideas about queer experiences.

Well, if you're intent on being offended, then this is now well established. You are offended to the point where you'd rather BioWare just not even try because their attempts are failures. You're offended to the point where you believe others are simply turning a blind eye to obvious offense. We both support depictions of homosexual romance in BioWare games, but we are not on the same side.

Is that about right? Are we crystal?

You're intent on favoring BioWare, this is now well established. You favor BioWare to the point you'd rather I not try naming their faults because you beilieve BioWare is a ship of heroes who "lower themselves and risk themselves" by throwing us a bone. You favor them to the point where you need to tell yourself I'm only criticizing thin air. We both support depictions of homosexual romance in BioWare games, but we are not on the same side.

That's patently obvious.

Modifié par Eromenos, 17 décembre 2010 - 11:29 .

[jlb524]

Siansonea II wrote...

I think if someone really wanted to "lay bare" BioWare's "crimes", they would take out a full-page ad in the New York Times, not rant repetitively on a membership-based online discussion board that no one follows outside of a very small community.

I agree.  We are just having a discussion about homosexuality and Mass Effect (the purpose of the thread, I think).  No one is making demands or threatening to never buy a BioWare game again because they are unhappy with some things or have taken offense to some things they've done in the past.  My 'goal' if you will is to point out how some protrayals could be taken offensively and hope that in the future that if they include homosexual couples that they will be more thoughtful of this.  I also hope that they will add a legit m/m romance option in the next game and that it will receive the same amount of care and development as the hetero options, and not feel 'tacked on'. 

I don't see why this thread can't be used to critique BW's past endeavours with homosexuality.  I don't think this thread should just be about lauding them for what they have done but just asking them for more.

Siansonea II wrote...
I will continue to support the Fight For The Love cause, and I'm firmly in the Big Ben Sniper For Same-Sex LI camp.

He totally should be. 

[Ryzaki]

Siansonea II wrote...

I think if someone really wanted to "lay bare" BioWare's "crimes", they would take out a full-page ad in the New York Times, not rant repetitively on a membership-based online discussion board that no one follows outside of a very small community.

I have facepalmed and headdesked over BioWare's dancing around this issue in the past, but the bottom line is I still like their games, and I'm still going to buy their games, and I'm still going to play their games, even if they don't sort out this particular issue to my satisfaction quickly enough. I'm not going to turn my back on Mass Effect out of spite.

I will continue to support the Fight For The Love cause, and I'm firmly in the Big Ben Sniper For Same-Sex LI camp. If someone makes a group for that, I'll join it.

Big Ben For M/M LI in ME3

Banners and Icons will be available soon.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 décembre 2010 - 11:24 .

[BossumBuddy]

I just keep hearing the line"what's wrong with me, I'm a woman", that is not positive in any stretch of the imagination.

[Ryzaki]

BossumBuddy wrote...

I just keep hearing the line"what's wrong with me, I'm a woman", that is not positive in any stretch of the imagination.

I'm confused. Could you explain this to me?

Edit: As for the BW being insulting debate if it's subjective then there's no point discussing it because the whole thing will go in circles.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 décembre 2010 - 11:37 .

[Eromenos]

DominusVita wrote...

Eromenos has certainly been thinking about this for quite some time, though I'm not quite on the same page as him. One thing I do agree with him, however, is the noted fact that there aren't necessarily pure homosexual relationships in mass effect(at least up to this point). It makes no difference to me personally, but I see what everyone else is getting at - I'd say if it feels appropriate to a particular character created, then I don't see why not, but it's not something you want to force. "Hey Ashley, now that I'm no longer with cerberus, wanna have some lesbo lovin?" I can see where eromenos is coming from, but saying Bioware believes in "a middle-road exploitation" is a bit much.

You say that you have no emotional investment in any outcome of this debate, but then you also say that queer sexuality should never be "forced" upon gamers. So exclusively-straight couples and heterosexual come-ons being forced on all gamers, including queer gamers, happen to be just fine with you. Every playthrough of ME1 and ME2 happens to be like that.

Don't take this the wrong way, but you're BioWare's preferred target audience. Your disclaimer of support is well-intentioned, but you've got to try seeing it from an actual queer point of view, me being just one example. The principle you backed is commendable. But you have no need to impose arbitrary limits which detract from the initial force of your statement.

[Eromenos]

Ryzaki wrote...

BossumBuddy wrote...

I just keep hearing the line"what's wrong with me, I'm a woman", that is not positive in any stretch of the imagination.

I'm confused. Could you explain this to me?

Edit: As for the BW being insulting debate if it's subjective then there's no point discussing it because the whole thing will go in circles.

She's referring to Nef's diary entry regarding Morinth. And I agree with her.