9243 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

Phantom Actuality wrote...

No.  Just don't expect others to share your interpretation of what is or is not positive or negative portayel.  I don't see how gays are portayed any more negatively than heterosexuals are in ME.  It's all subjective.  Absensce of open homosexuality is not negative portayel. 

Nef being killed by Morinth, is not negative portrayel of homosexuals.  The actual relationship itself, is open to interpretation.  You don't know that that relationship was intimate, it was in it's infancy.  What if Nef was man?  Would that be negative portrayel of heterosexuals?

The thing is, they do show bad heterosexual relationships, however, there are loads of good ones to balance that out.  With the Nef/Morinth thing, there really isn't other good homosexual relationships to balance that out.

I don't understand how you can't see that a young woman giving into her homosexual desires only to end up dead is not a bad thing.

Phantom Actuality wrote...

What do you want? We've heard the criticism that you've laid out.  What would you do?  Let's hear your version of ME2.  What should have been done with Morinth?  How should that have played out?  Who should have been Morinth's prey?  Should Morinth even have existed?  What should have given Samara purpose in ME2?

Let's hear your version of ME2.  I'll bet I can rip it up and tear it down just like you've been doing in this thread.

Well, first they could have opened up two of the six ME2 LIs for s/s romance (one for the guys and one for the gals).  Also, show more asari in good relationship with female aliens.  There's the touching sidequest involving an asari that is looking for the locked of her beloved (and deceased) bondmate.  Of course, it was a male human.  Why couldn't it have been a female human instead?  All they would have to do is change the name of the deceased partner to a feminine one. 

Or, in the background on Illium, show an asari and a female quarian talking about buying something for their child.  These are simple things, really, and their inclusion would have balanced out the negativity shown by the Nef/Morinth thing.  I would have no problem with this then.

Modifié par jlb524, 17 décembre 2010 - 11:43 .

[Ryzaki]

Eromenos wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

BossumBuddy wrote...

I just keep hearing the line"what's wrong with me, I'm a woman", that is not positive in any stretch of the imagination.

I'm confused. Could you explain this to me?

Edit: As for the BW being insulting debate if it's subjective then there's no point discussing it because the whole thing will go in circles.

She's referring to Nef's diary entry regarding Morinth. And I agree with her.

Ah yeah. I thought it was more because of the asari thing but in that case she wouldn't have brought up the women part would she...

Well I already said the ME series was filled to the brim with unforuntante implications. This is just one more to place on the pile.

[Eromenos]

Phantom Actuality wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
Is it wrong to take offense to a media's portrayal of a minority group? Or, just wrong to express it?

No.  Just don't expect others to share your interpretation of what is or is not positive or negative portayel.  I don't see how gays are portayed any more negatively than heterosexuals are in ME.  It's all subjective.  Absensce of open homosexuality is not negative portayel. 

Nef being killed by Morinth, is not negative portrayel of homosexuals.  The actual relationship itself, is open to interpretation.  You don't know that that relationship was intimate, it was in it's infancy.  What if Nef was man?  Would that be negative portrayel of heterosexuals?

It would not have been negative towards heterosexual relationships because there is a numerous array of other heterosexual relationships featured in ME2 which would more than counterbalance this one if Nef had been male. The same cannot said about supportive queer counterbalance, because ME1 and ME2 exclude them from the narrative aside for sinister examples like Morinth and tragic examples like purebloods' plight with discrimination, death in wars, and AY.

What do you want? We've heard the criticism that you've laid out.  What would you do?  Let's hear your version of ME2.  What should have been done with Morinth?  How should that have played out?  Who should have been Morinth's prey?  Should Morinth even have existed?  What should have given Samara purpose in ME2?

Let's hear your version of ME2.  I'll bet I can rip it up and tear it down just like you've been doing in this thread.

Simple. Allow for every NPC who can be romanced or flirted with to not discriminate for or against Shepard purely on the basis of sex/gender. Allow for several same-sex couples or families who have same-sex parents to be present in the streets of the Citadel and Ilium.

Modifié par Eromenos, 17 décembre 2010 - 11:49 .

[MisterDyslexo]

jlb524 wrote...

Well, first they could have opened up two of the six ME2 LIs for s/s romance (one for the guys and one for the gals).  Also, show more asari in good relationship with female aliens.  There's the touching sidequest involving an asari that is looking for the locked of her beloved (and deceased) bondmate.  Of course, it was a male human.  Why couldn't it have been a female human instead?  All they would have to do is change the name of the deceased partner to a feminine one. 

No offense, but if I'm following your logic correctly, you'd feel the same about Nef here with this couple if it happened this way.

And I still don't follow the Morinth thing at all, since she's basically a vampire. From a literature-history standpoint, vampires seduce both sexes for the sake if increasing their chances of nabbing somebody. And generally they usually have some sort of supernatural aura that basically serves as an aphrodisiac ("Are the asari using mind tricks on us?") that works on everybody. They don't discriminate the gender or race, but usually go after certain characteristics in a person (in Morinth's case she was attracked to art).

That said, I think NEf's comment about her being "another girl" is just showing that she preys on the younger, more innocent type of person (since younger people are more likely to have doubts about sexuality). Thats my take. I'm not saying you don't have any ground to base your take on, but I think its just a case of seeing something that isn't there.

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 17 décembre 2010 - 11:54 .

[Dominus]

but then you also say that queer sexuality should never be "forced" upon gamers

Not what I meant. I meant if it feels appropriate to a character, I have no opposition to that. I shouldn't have used the word forced, as long as it feels like a real, tangible relationship and not just thrown in just because. Or am I just making things worse by talking.

[jlb524]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

No offense, but if I'm following your logic correctly, you'd feel the same about Nef here with this couple if it happened this way.

I'm saying I would have no problem with the Nef/Morinth thing if they had included some of the minor changes I suggested in order to show some positive gay couples to counterbalance the Nef/Morinth one.

MisterDyslexo wrote...

And I still don't follow the Morinth thing at all, since she's basically a vampire. From a literature-history standpoint, vampires seduce both sexes for the sake if increasing their chances of nabbing somebody. And generally they usually have some sort of supernatural aura that basically serves as an aphrodisiac ("Are the asari using mind tricks on us?") that works on everybody. They don't discriminate the gender or race, but usually go after certain characteristics in a person (in Morinth's case she was attracked to art).

That said, I think NEf's comment about her being "another girl" is just showing that she preys on the younger, more innocent type of person (since younger people are more likely to have doubts about sexuality). Thats my take. I'm not saying you don't have any ground to base your take on, but I think its just a case of seeing something that isn't there.

Well, my take is that this girl was confused a bit about her sexuality.  She was shocked over being attracted to another woman.  Finally, she gives in to her homosexual attraction and what happens?  She ends up dead.  I think the message there isn't a good one.

Also, vampires (and Morinth) do prey on both sexes, but she was shown in the narrative of ME2 (which is what I'm critiquing) as going after a woman.

[MisterDyslexo]

DominusVita wrote...

but then you also say that queer sexuality should never be "forced" upon gamers

Not what I meant. I meant if it feels appropriate to a character, I have no opposition to that. I shouldn't have used the word forced, as long as it feels like a real, tangible relationship and not just thrown in just because. Or am I just making things worse by talking.

I'll defend you, I get where you're going. I feel the same about it plot wise. It made sense for Alistair in DA:O to be straight, same as Morrigan, Since a romance with Leliana or Zevran wouldn't ultimately affect the major final outcomes, it makes it alright for them to be bisexual. If it made sense for a character to be gay plotwise, then I'd be alright with you, is that right? Cause thats sorta what I think you're getting at.

In Mass effect, the romance quite frankly hasn't had any major effect on the plot, so there's no reason for any character to be exclusively gay or straight. Thats my take.

Am I on the right track?

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 18 décembre 2010 - 12:00 .

[Eromenos]

DominusVita wrote...

but then you also say that queer sexuality should never be "forced" upon gamers

Not what I meant. I meant if it feels appropriate to a character, I have no opposition to that. I shouldn't have used the word forced, as long as it feels like a real, tangible relationship and not just thrown in just because. Or am I just making things worse by talking.

No, that helps. You might also say that your criteria can and should be applied to the M/F relationships too.   I certainly do.

Modifié par Eromenos, 18 décembre 2010 - 12:04 .

[Ryzaki]

Edit: @MisterDyslexo

O_o

Wait dude what? How did it make "sense" for Alistair to be straight? Morrigan is somewhat understandable as she's been molded by Flemeth. But Alistair?

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 décembre 2010 - 12:09 .

[Ryzaki]

Phantom Actuality wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
I don't understand how you can't see that a young woman giving into her homosexual desires only to end up dead is not a bad thing.

Sure, in reality it is, but we're talking about a game here.  It's a fictional story.  What you're proposing, at least what it sounds like to me, is censorship.  A entity cannot publish B content.  Hollywood must remove all protrayels of violence from their movies and tv shows.  All books must not portray a gay woman that is killed by another woman.

Well, first they could have opened up two of the six ME2 LIs for s/s romance (one for the guys and one for the gals).  Also, show more asari in good relationship with female aliens.  There's the touching sidequest involving an asari that is looking for the locked of her beloved (and deceased) bondmate.  Of course, it was a male human.  Why couldn't it have been a female human instead?  All they would have to do is change the name of the deceased partner to a feminine one. 

Or, in the background on Illium, show an asari and a female quarian talking about buying something for their child.  These are simple things, really, and their inclusion would have balanced out the negativity shown by the Nef/Morinth thing.  I would have no problem with this then.

Checks and balances in is this medium doesn't compute with me.  Entertainment is not zero sum.  A writer does not need to adhere to what may be considered as balanced by someone else.  That's freedom to do what you want to do.  Again, you seem to be proposing censorship.  You cannot show A content unless you show B content as well.

I'm pretty inclined to believe censorship has already laid it's claws in ME before it was even shipped.

[MisterDyslexo]

Phantom Actuality wrote...
Again, you're proposing censorship.  You cannot show A content unless you show B content as well.

Can we try to avoid this particular argument?

Jib, you're saying that it paints homosexuality in a bad light, and shame on Bioware for doing that.

Bioware screwed up, but demanding that they paint f/f relationships in a good light to counter a one that you consider bad (while some don't consider it a relationship portrayal at all) is sorta like (potentially bad metaphor alert) bringing in both a fireman and an arsonist to talk to children about the pros and cons of each. I think Bioware does already paint a positive f/f relationship between Liara and FemShep, considering that pair is taken more often than Liara MaleShep, and generally people think that Meer is shallow when it comes to it whereas Hale does it extremely well that it shines as a positive. Morinth may be a bad case, but there's already good f/f demonstration, and there's likely to be in the future. Maybe take look at Khalisa Al-Jilanhi's little secret she's hiding from her "earth first" bosses.

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 18 décembre 2010 - 12:14 .

[Eromenos]

Phantom Actuality wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
I don't understand how you can't see that a young woman giving into her homosexual desires only to end up dead is not a bad thing.

Sure, in reality it is, but we're talking about a game here.  It's a fictional story.  What you're proposing, at least what it sounds like to me, is censorship.  A entity cannot publish B content.  Hollywood must remove all protrayels of violence from their movies and tv shows.  All books must not portray a gay woman that is killed by another woman.

Well, first they could have opened up two of the six ME2 LIs for s/s romance (one for the guys and one for the gals).  Also, show more asari in good relationship with female aliens.  There's the touching sidequest involving an asari that is looking for the locked of her beloved (and deceased) bondmate.  Of course, it was a male human.  Why couldn't it have been a female human instead?  All they would have to do is change the name of the deceased partner to a feminine one. 

Or, in the background on Illium, show an asari and a female quarian talking about buying something for their child.  These are simple things, really, and their inclusion would have balanced out the negativity shown by the Nef/Morinth thing.  I would have no problem with this then.

Checks and balances in is this medium doesn't compute with me.  Entertainment is not zero sum.  A writer does not need to adhere to what may be considered as balanced by someone else.  That's freedom to do what you want to do.  Again, you seem to be proposing censorship.  You cannot show A content unless you show B content as well.

Are you favoring BioWare's censorship against strong/prominent/normal queer sexuality in their games? It seems like you don't see their intentional exclusions as being a problem because you deny that a mass media franchise like ME can play effects on the audience's ideas about themselves or other people.

It'd be ideal if storytelling were given free rein. Reality is that BioWare is intentionally censoring already, but because they're doing it to a minority group whose rights and status have not been nationally codified(in America), BioWare takes the opportunity to continue excluding or abuse our images.

Modifié par Eromenos, 18 décembre 2010 - 12:15 .

[MisterDyslexo]

Ryzaki wrote...

Edit: @MisterDyslexo

O_o

Wait dude what? How did it make "sense" for Alistair to be straight? Morrigan is somewhat understandable as she's been molded by Flemeth. But Alistair?

You can't have two kings, since a m/m relationship doesn't produce a child, just like a female having sex with Morrigan wouldn't produce the "Old God" baby. Now I know that it isn't mandatory for Alistair to take the throne, but its equally as important as going along with or declining Morrigan's dark ritual. And of course they can't adopt, because that would disrupt the royal line. You could try to make the King James argument, but Queen Victoria was infertile whereas Alistair is still fertile, so Alistair still had options. Thats just kinda how it works in my mind. Hope it makes sense.

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 18 décembre 2010 - 12:15 .

[Ryzaki]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Edit: @MisterDyslexo

O_o

Wait dude what? How did it make "sense" for Alistair to be straight? Morrigan is somewhat understandable as she's been molded by Flemeth. But Alistair?

You can't have two kings, since a m/m relationship doesn't produce a child, just like a female having sex with Morrigan wouldn't produce the "Old God" baby. Now I know that it isn't mandatory for Alistair to take the throne, but its equally as important as going along with or declining Morrigan's dark ritual. And of course they can't adopt, because that would disrupt the royal line. You could try to make the King James argument, but Queen Victoria was infertile whereas Alistair is still fertile, so Alistair still had options

And how pray tell does that stop him from potentially being gay/bisexual?

And Alistair doesn't have to be king you realize this yes? Like the fact that he can't have kids with a female PC and can't marry anyone other than a female noble PC (or whoever Eamon picks for him/Anora)? Everyone else is reduced to his bit on the side? 

None of that has anything to do with his sexual preferences.

The only difference is that he could marry a FHN but not a HHN and consider there are 5 other female origins that's not a big deal either way they aren't having kids.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 décembre 2010 - 12:16 .

[jlb524]

Phantom Actuality wrote...

Sure, in reality it is, but we're talking about a game here.  It's a fictional story.  What you're proposing, at least what it sounds like to me, is censorship.  A entity cannot publish B content.  Hollywood must remove all protrayels of violence from their movies and tv shows.  All books must not portray a gay woman that is killed by another woman.

I'm not proposing censorship.  I think I stated earlier that BW is free to do what they want.  I'm also free to critique it.  Also, I think I made it clear that I have no problems with them including a gay woman being killed by another (Nef and Morinth) if they also include positive representations of gay couples.  I just want the company to be a bit more thoughtful with how they include homosexuality in future games.  

There's censorship and then there's good taste.  Some people will not include things in their story as they can be deemed offensvie to groups of people.  This isn't really censorship, as it's not being imposed by a governing body.

[MisterDyslexo]

Ryzaki wrote...

And how pray tell does that stop him from potentially being gay/bisexual?

And Alistair doesn't have to be king you realize this yes? Like the fact that he can't have kids with a female PC and can't marry anyone other than a female noble PC (or whoever Eamon picks for him/Anora)? Everyone else is reduced to his bit on the side? 

None of that has anything to do with his sexual preferences.

Well for one we see that Alistair will deny the non-queen Warden if he
is made king. He will simply not have her, so you could expect the same
to apply in a m/m relationship. And I get what you're saying about not
being king, but the game points you in the direction of that being
straight directly affects one of the major plot points (same with
Morrigan) so I see no real problem with it. I realize that they both
could be bi, but that seems like it would downgrade their importance in
the plot. One of the important things about being the male warden with
Morrigan was that it was you, yourself, deciding to father a child
you'll never see because it has the soul of a god, or dying. Being
female and going "Hey, Alistair! Get in here so you can bang my
girlfriend and we live happily ever after." sorta breaks away from that
completely. I hope you sorta get where I'm coming from with this.

[jlb524]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Jib, you're saying that it paints homosexuality in a bad light, and shame on Bioware for doing that.

Bioware screwed up, but demanding that they paint f/f relationships in a good light to counter a one that you consider bad (while some don't consider it a relationship portrayal at all) is sorta like (potentially bad metaphor alert) bringing in both a fireman and an arsonist to talk to children about the pros and cons of each.

I'm not demanding anything.  I'm enjoying a discussion and justifying my offense to how homosexual relations were portrayed in ME2.  If I wanted to demand, I'd start a petition thread or a 'Boycott Bioware' thread or something. 

I just don't know why people continue to attempt to debunk my criticisms by saying I'm bad for demanding something.

I'm saying, that if they had shown some positive homosexual couples along with Nef and Morinth, that would be less offensive.  Seriously, how would most straight people feel if a game was full of homosexuality, and the only straight couple was like Nef and Morinth? 

MisterDyslexo wrote...
I think Bioware does already paint a positive f/f relationship between Liara and FemShep, considering that pair is taken more often than Liara MaleShep, and generally people think that Meer is shallow when it comes to it whereas Hale does it extremely well that it shines as a positive. Morinth may be a bad case, but there's already good f/f demonstration, and there's likely to be in the future. Maybe take look at Khalisa Al-Jilanhi's little secret she's hiding from her "earth first" bosses.

I do agree that FemShep/Liara is good, but it's optional.  Given the BW stats (80% play ManShep) most will not see this ever.  I wouldn't say the pair is taken more than ManShep.  You would have to prove that somehow.

Most do see the other couples, though.

[Ryzaki]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And how pray tell does that stop him from potentially being gay/bisexual?

And Alistair doesn't have to be king you realize this yes? Like the fact that he can't have kids with a female PC and can't marry anyone other than a female noble PC (or whoever Eamon picks for him/Anora)? Everyone else is reduced to his bit on the side? 

None of that has anything to do with his sexual preferences.

Well for one we see that Alistair will deny the non-queen Warden if he
is made king. He will simply not have her, so you could expect the same
to apply in a m/m relationship. And I get what you're saying about not
being king, but the game points you in the direction of that being
straight directly affects one of the major plot points (same with
Morrigan) so I see no real problem with it. I realize that they both
could be bi, but that seems like it would downgrade their importance in
the plot. One of the important things about being the male warden with
Morrigan was that it was you, yourself, deciding to father a child
you'll never see because it has the soul of a god, or dying. Being
female and going "Hey, Alistair! Get in here so you can bang my
girlfriend and we live happily ever after." sorta breaks away from that
completely. I hope you sorta get where I'm coming from with this.

/sighs

You don't have to make Alistair king and can remain his lover even if he is king the option is there even if you don't think it's as important.

And frankly I prefer non-king Alistair. He's happier that way.

This doesn't affect *any* plot points other than him marrying FemCousland which wouldn't happen if the other Five female! origins anyways!

And hell it adds juiciness. Think about the DR and Morrigan talking about her and Dude Cousland's son in front of a romanced Alistair who wasn't told about the DR.

And I saw your point with Morrigan. But Alistair has no such point.

Morrigan was sent along with you to get knocked up. Doesn't serve much of a point for Flemeth to mold her (and Flemeth pretty much did mold her because Morrigan repeats everything Flemeth taught her like the damn Chant) into anything other than a straight female.

Alistair on the the hand had no such moldings. He was never suposed to be ing and I doubt anyone would have done so even if he had.

Also: You seriously think the female PC would be happy about her BF/Enemy sleeping with her GF? Or that Morrigan would be happy about it? Did you play the Alistair romance as a female? The two of them despise each other.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 décembre 2010 - 12:39 .

[jlb524]

Phantom Actuality wrote...

I don't see how a negative realtionship would be dimished by the fact that there would be numerous other relationships.  That would not preclude the said negative portrayel of the realtionship.  It's still there.

You are missing the point.  Negative portayals are not bad within themselves.  As I think you mentioned, there are negative portrayals of heterosexuality as well.  The difference being that there are also tons of shiny happy normal straight couples shown, whereas this isn't the case with homosexual couples.  The context is what is important.

A negative portrayal of a lesbian couple in the context of a game that has some positive portrayals isn't bad.

Modifié par jlb524, 18 décembre 2010 - 12:35 .

[Ryzaki]

Phantom Actuality wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
I'm pretty inclined to believe censorship has already laid it's claws in ME before it was even shipped.

I disagree with censorship period, but yeah, there's no doubt that censorship exists in ME.  Entertainment is censored to a degree.  I don't think it should be at all.  I think that I can decide what I is or is not appropriate content for my child to see.     I don't need a government entity to tell me that, and I certainly don't need them telling me what I can or cannot see.  I don't like any censorship whatsover. 

Eh. The dialogue for m/m in ME still on the disc pretty much leads to me believing it was censored from the beginning. Censorship will always exist the most we can do is limit it.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 décembre 2010 - 12:36 .

[MisterDyslexo]

Ryzaki wrote...

/sighs

You don't have to make Alistair king and can remain his lover even if he is king the option is there even if you don't think it's as important.

You can do that?

I've played three playthroughs in which I romanced Alistair, and on the two that weren't FemaleNoble, he kicked them out on their ass no matter what I said or option I chose to avoid it (reloaded several times). I know the option is there for Leliana (and I've heard Zevran as well), whether taking the throne as male of female noble, but I didn't realize it was possible. That does change my view I guess.

And as for not marrying Anora, I always thought that option took out a major plot point. And even if you could argue for MaleNoble romance with 'King' Alistair, there's this huge imbalance between  Male and FemaleNoble and their roles (Female is queen, Male is a booy call?) that seems like it would just throw the whole thiing off.

Ryzaki wrote...


Also: You seriously think the female
PC would be happy about her BF/Enemy sleeping with her GF? Or that
Morrigan would be happy about it? Did you play the Alistair romance as a
female? The two of them despise each other.

I was trying to say that would never happen. Just another case of sarcasm misunderstood on the internet.

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 18 décembre 2010 - 12:44 .

[Ryzaki]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

/sighs

You don't have to make Alistair king and can remain his lover even if he is king the option is there even if you don't think it's as important.

You can do that?

I've played three playthroughs in which I romanced Alistair, and on the two that weren't FemaleNoble, he kicked them out on their ass no matter what I said or option I chose to avoid it (reloaded several times). I know the option is there for Leliana (and I've heard Zevran as well), whether taking the throne as male of female noble, but I didn't realize it was possible. That does change my view I guess.

And as for not marrying Anora, I always thought that option took out a major plot point. And even if you could argue for MaleNoble romance with 'King' Alistair, there's this huge imbalance between  Male and FemaleNoble and their roles (Female is queen, Male is a booy call?) that seems like it would just throw the whole thiing off.

Yes. You have to harden him.

And not that kind of harden ya pervs.

Not really because the male could marry Anora and probably have a (hardened of course) Alistair on the side.

Though if that didn't work he could always just be chancellor. It's not like marriage is the end all and be all anyways.

Edit: Sorry. Thought you were serious.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 décembre 2010 - 12:48 .