9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Eromenos]

Phantom Actuality wrote...

Eromenos wrote...
It would not have been negative towards heterosexual relationships because there is a numerous array of other heterosexual relationships featured in ME2 which would more than counterbalance this one if Nef had been male. The same cannot said about supportive queer counterbalance, because ME1 and ME2 exclude them from the narrative aside for sinister examples like Morinth and tragic examples like purebloods' plight with discrimination, death in wars, and AY.

I don't see how a negative realtionship would be dimished by the fact that there would be numerous other relationships.  That would not preclude the said negative portrayel of the realtionship.  It's still there.

Simple. Allow for every NPC who can be romanced or flirted with to not discriminate for or against Shepard purely on the basis of sex/gender. Allow for several same-sex couples or families who have same-sex parents to be present in the streets of the Citadel and Ilium.

I don't mind seeing homosexual couples in public places in ME.  Allowing every NPC who is a potential LI to be non discriminate would be fine with me too.  I usually avoid the romances anyway, but it doesn't matter to me, if A character is available to either sex protagonist.  If I don't want to romance A LI, then I won't.  I don't care that A LI is available to my Shepard or a Shepard of the opposite gender.  So, as far as having the content there, I'm fine with that.

Eromenos wrote...
Are you favoring BioWare's censorship against strong/prominent/normal queer sexuality in their games? It seems
like you don't see their intentional exclusions as being a problem because you deny that a mass media franchise like ME can play effects on the audience's ideas about themselves or other people.

It'd be ideal if storytelling were given free rein. Reality is that BioWare is intentionally censoring already, but because they're doing it to a minority group whose rights and status have not been nationally codified(in America), BioWare takes the opportunity to continue excluding or abuse our images.

Lack of content is not censorship though. 

Your second paragaraph would be more credible if Bioware didn't include homosexual content in any of their games.  As far as homosexuals being marginalized in Amercan society goes, I don't even want to get into that.

"It's all subjective.  Absensce of open homosexuality is not negative portayel. Nef being killed by Morinth, is not negative portrayel of homosexuals."

I'm afraid that is in fact negative to the queer community. When every established same-sex relationship in ME2 has to end in villainy or tragedy, that speaks of unwillingness on BioWare's part to portray queer people exceeding arbitrary limitations. Such limitations are homophobic because they're meant to give comfort for people who feel better about themselves when groups like the queer community are kept at comparable disadvantage.

Which BioWare games have any gay characters besides Juhani and Belaya? Do you contend that their tragic relationship was much more flattering than Morinth and Nef's? Asari, as we know, are counted not as officially female by BioWare and even the ones who we hear have had(never seen, only referred to) same-sex relationships are forced to live through villainy or victimhood.

"I don't mind seeing homosexual couples in public places in ME. 
Allowing every NPC who is a potential LI to be non discriminate would
be fine with me too.  I usually avoid the romances anyway, but it
doesn't matter to me, if A character is available to either sex
protagonist.  If I don't want to romance A LI, then I won't.  I don't
care that A LI is available to my Shepard or a Shepard of the opposite
gender.  So, as far as having the content there, I'm fine with that."

Grateful for the support!

Modifié par Eromenos, 18 décembre 2010 - 12:48 .

[LoveAsThouWilt]

jlb524 wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Jib, you're saying that it paints homosexuality in a bad light, and shame on Bioware for doing that.

Bioware screwed up, but demanding that they paint f/f relationships in a good light to counter a one that you consider bad (while some don't consider it a relationship portrayal at all) is sorta like (potentially bad metaphor alert) bringing in both a fireman and an arsonist to talk to children about the pros and cons of each.

I'm not demanding anything.  I'm enjoying a discussion and justifying my offense to how homosexual relations were portrayed in ME2.  If I wanted to demand, I'd start a petition thread or a 'Boycott Bioware' thread or something. 

I just don't know why people continue to attempt to debunk my criticisms by saying I'm bad for demanding something.

I'm saying, that if they had shown some positive homosexual couples along with Nef and Morinth, that would be less offensive.  Seriously, how would most straight people feel if a game was full of homosexuality, and the only straight couple was like Nef and Morinth? 

MisterDyslexo wrote...
I think Bioware does already paint a positive f/f relationship between Liara and FemShep, considering that pair is taken more often than Liara MaleShep, and generally people think that Meer is shallow when it comes to it whereas Hale does it extremely well that it shines as a positive. Morinth may be a bad case, but there's already good f/f demonstration, and there's likely to be in the future. Maybe take look at Khalisa Al-Jilanhi's little secret she's hiding from her "earth first" bosses.

I do agree that FemShep/Liara is good, but it's optional.  Given the BW stats (80% play ManShep) most will not see this ever.  I wouldn't say the pair is taken more than ManShep.  You would have to prove that somehow.

Most do see the other couples, though.

I hate how in threads such as this that the word "optional' is thrown out as an excuse or sorts to say "well its optional so why discuss it?"

This is just  not the case. I don't know anyone and if their are very few who don't take the romances into account. They are "choiced" not optional. As in you can choose a romance of your choice. The fact remains that choice is limited to straight unless Female Shepard or romancing no one at all as Male Shepard to get Kaidan's beginning scene in ME2. Which I did.
Arguement is still valied even if one says its "optional". That does not stop the discussion.

These so called "optional" things are big in that they provide an emotional connection with the characters. And that is the big thing about Mass Effect. You loss that emotional impact, you lose a fan, or atleast, you lose their respect for your work to some degree. I love the Mass Effect series, its my favorite, but I still have hang ups about how they handled things, primarily the romances, when going for Mass Effect 1 to 2. I didn't even feel like Mass Effect. I loved the combat decisions and the missions structure even, too a point, missed planted exploring tho. Even so I still love the series and as such I will voice my opinions on all aspects whether one deems it an "optional" one or not.

Also in terms of censorship I tend to agree with the person who says Bioware have been doing such. Mass Effect 1 romance scene compared to Mass Effect 2s. Its perfectly obvious. Because someone somewhere were offended by side-boob and the implication of sex with actual skin in a video game they backstepped on their artful way of portraying it to something you'd see on a teenager-dating whatever type show. Pathetic Bioware, really pathetic.

Modifié par LoveAsThouWilt, 18 décembre 2010 - 12:59 .

[Lotto]

doesn't make any sense to me that shepard is heterosexual for 2 games and suddenly becomes gay in the third. the game is pretty much at an end. if it was going to happen, it should have been implemented in the beginning.

[jlb524]

@LoveAsThouWilt

That all really has nothing to do with my point.  My point was that most ME2 gamers aren't going to see the FemShep/Liara romance while they will more than likely see Nef/Morinth and all the asari/male alien couples on Illium.

Again, I'm concerned with the messages being sent to the audience. It's a fact most of this audience isn't going to see the lone positive lesbian relationship in game.

Modifié par jlb524, 18 décembre 2010 - 01:02 .

[Ryzaki]

We're awfully scathing to BW at times aren't we?
You guys at BW know it's only because we  <3you guys and your games. If we didn't care we wouldn't get this worked up about it.

So :wub:hugs and kisses to everyone at BW and I hope you guys do choose to include M/M and F/F in ME3.

Since apparently Kelly doesn't exist and Liara isn't female.


I'm mean because I care.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 décembre 2010 - 01:06 .

[Eromenos]

jlb524 wrote...

I'm not demanding anything.  I'm enjoying a discussion and justifying my offense to how homosexual relations were portrayed in ME2.  If I wanted to demand, I'd start a petition thread or a 'Boycott Bioware' thread or something. 

I just don't know why people continue to attempt to debunk my criticisms by saying I'm bad for demanding something.

I'm saying, that if they had shown some positive homosexual couples along with Nef and Morinth, that would be less offensive.  Seriously, how would most straight people feel if a game was full of homosexuality, and the only straight couple was like Nef and Morinth? 

Some folks think that this is an area reserved for dropping fruitbaskets.

But cataloguing BioWare's discrimination right here on their forums is perfect because this challenges the supporters who make these homophobic images possible. Doing this elsewhere completely serves no purpose but to imply that BioWare-support opinions count for more than the opinions of BioWare-critics.

[LoveAsThouWilt]

Lotto wrote...

doesn't make any sense to me that shepard is heterosexual for 2 games and suddenly becomes gay in the third. the game is pretty much at an end. if it was going to happen, it should have been implemented in the beginning.

You talk as if for Mass Effect 3 he'd have to FEM up his attitude, appearance and voice to be homosexual. HELLO! This game is built upon choice. There are people that romance and people that romance NO ONE. And, as said, Shepard isn't straight nor homosexual by any definition just as he/SHE is not MALE nor FEMALE by any definition.

SImply put; IT COULD STILL BE IMPLEMENTED. Your arguement on how it could not is moot in the context of how the game works.

I just want my Directors Cut of the Trilogy somewhere down the line lol - all 3 games, one package and Kaidan romancable. lol

I also will add that I am a dude that like dudes, but after 4 playthorughs of mass effect 2, I didn't see anything offensive about Nef and Morinth. Sure I guess it could be seen as offensive if you want to see it that way, but I didn't. Nef was just a woman who fell in with the the wrong person. The fact that she is female and fell for an asari (another woman) was inconsequencial in my book. Such tragedies occur within all manner of groups around the world. I understand how it could be SEEN as offensive seeing as its one of the few viewal of homosexuallity in this universe, but I didn't see it as a such.

Modifié par LoveAsThouWilt, 18 décembre 2010 - 01:09 .

[MisterDyslexo]

I don't see the huge problem with Morinth and Nef. I've said before I see it more as a vampiric type of thing, and the asari-pureblood thing struck me more along the lines of incest, especially with W.A.S.P.-ism in areas where they're a minority. Thats just how I see that. And to be fair, we don't really see that many good straight relationships. Kasumi's boyfriend is dead and she's obsessive over him, Conrad Verner's wife shipped him out because he has a hero as a full-grown adult (I wouldn't call that a bad thing). Tali's father never spent time with his wife, and she eventually died neglected. You could say something about the complete absence of Jacob's mother. Joker's father ditched them, presumably at some point during the pregnancy or shortly after his birth (forced single-parenthood). The "gene-mod?" mother who had her husband die on her due to disease.

There are a whole bunch more that are quite frankly irrelevant that I could list (like Thane and his wife). The only two times I've seen a functional straight couple is

a) Anderson & his wife
The gift kiosk salarian on Ilium, but that seemed to focus more on the age-gap when marrying (or at least to me)
c) The older human couple in the quarantine zone on Omega

I don't really think many relationships are portrayed positively in the entire series. Maybe Bioware is just cynical about relationships?

Edit: And there's more for speculation Khalisa Al-Jilanhi with her asari lover (any issue relating to that and the hypocrisy of her work are matters of inter-racial relations) and then the Captain Gavorn thing, although that's purely cinrumstantical and could be interpreted other ways (not many... but it could)

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 18 décembre 2010 - 01:14 .

[Eromenos]

Phantom Actuality wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Phantom Actuality wrote...

I don't see how a negative realtionship would be dimished by the fact that there would be numerous other relationships.  That would not preclude the said negative portrayel of the realtionship.  It's still there.

You are missing the point.  Negative portayals are not bad within themselves.  As I think you mentioned, there are negative portrayals of heterosexuality as well.  The difference being that there are also tons of shiny happy normal straight couples shown, whereas this isn't the case with homosexual couples.  The context is what is important.

A negative portrayal of a lesbian couple in the context of a game that has some positive portrayals isn't bad.

You want to see some homosexual couples at a few of the hubs.  M/M and F/F, and not just Asari/Asari, but human F/F. Want a few more LIs open to both genders.  Nothing wrong with that.  That wouldn't bother me at all.  It's sci-fi future, but it's still the future, so I would think that homosexuality would be a non issue.  I don't know exactly what the writers' vision is though.

The fact that the only homosexual realtionships may or may have not been displayed as negative portrayels, didn't even dawn on me when I was playing the game.  I'm just not looking at it that way.  I understand what you're saying, but I don't know if the lack of more said postive relationships, really has an impact on an individual, unless that indivual is consciously looking out for it.  I can't say for sure, but I don't think that most people that played the game got a negative impression of homosexuals because Nef was killed by Morinth, and there wasn't any postiive relationships to make up for it.  I can say that it wasn't even a blip on my radar. 

You're definitely getting jlb's point. And I'm able to see where you're coming from now.

It's worth considering that I, and jlb, and other folks, cannot look away because by nature we comb for reflections of ourselves in these worlds. They are rare, sometimes nonexistent...and in the case of ME2 they're twisted in my view.

[MisterDyslexo]

Lotto wrote...

doesn't make any sense to me that shepard is heterosexual for 2 games and suddenly becomes gay in the third. the game is pretty much at an end. if it was going to happen, it should have been implemented in the beginning.

Two words:

Role.

Playing.

Argument invalidated.

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 18 décembre 2010 - 01:17 .

[ElitePinecone]

Siansonea II wrote...
I have facepalmed and headdesked over BioWare's dancing around this issue in the past, but the bottom line is I still like their games, and I'm still going to buy their games, and I'm still going to play their games, even if they don't sort out this particular issue to my satisfaction quickly enough. I'm not going to turn my back on Mass Effect out of spite.

I will continue to support the Fight For The Love cause, and I'm firmly in the Big Ben Sniper For Same-Sex LI camp. If someone makes a group for that, I'll join it.

This. All of it. 

I can appreciate the dissatisfaction of some people with Bioware's actions, and I can understand how this may be interpreted as unfair if not discriminatory. But nothing helpful comes from denigrating the entire studio as a participant in some sort of mass-media homophobic conspiracy. These posts by David Gaider give a good explanation of what the issues involved with same-sex content in videogames are from a developer's perspective.

With respect, I can't see the point in being deliberately contrarian or strident about this issue. Demanding anything from Bioware is presumptuous and possibly detrimental. We can suggest - with all the evidence we can muster - that the inclusion of same-sex romances would only improve the storytelling experience in future Mass Effect games. That is what I hope this thread has tried to accomplish, and it's a credit to its participants that we haven't (yet) been shut down again. 

Whether or not Bioware takes a moment's notice of anything in this thread, I'll still be playing Mass Effect 3 - because there is more to my appreciation of games' value than whether or not they include same-sex content. 

With that in mind, Big Ben Sniper Guy for Same-Sex Love Interest in ME3! 

[Bocks]

Why do people even care so much? It's a game, guys. Sheesh. Not that I have anything against homosexuals, but still.

[hawkmoondirge]

I think, and someone correct me if I'm wrong here, is it's about equality and freedom. If I could, romance Zevran in DAO or Leliana as their same sex the option to do so should be there. I am not gay, but the option to do so for someone who is roleplaying a homosexual character should be allowed to do so. People care because consisrtancy is something we all like. Don't let me have my elven assassin pool boy in DAO but not have Jack, who is clearly promiscious, in that sense. Now in games , especially rpgs the chance to simulate or have a same sex relatioonship shouyld be allowed, especially for game slike these. If the Sims can do it, so can mass effect 3.



Signed/

[redbaron76]

I have no idea how people can try to push apolitical view on a game. Same sex relationships should not be discussed on mass effect forum since they have noting to do with this game. So please try to refrain from inflicting your political views on true gamers.

[Ryzaki]

redbaron76 wrote...

I have no idea how people can try to push apolitical view on a game. Same sex relationships should not be discussed on mass effect forum since they have noting to do with this game. So please try to refrain from inflicting your political views on true gamers.

I wasn't aware that I was no longer a true gamer .This must be quickly fixed.

Time for another playthrough of ME1 I suppose.

[MisterDyslexo]

redbaron76 wrote...

I have no idea how people can try to push apolitical view on a game.

Biowre disagrees. They've been doing it for years, and they're not the only ones. Try Bioshock to get what I mean.

Same sex relationships should not be discussed on mass effect forum since they have noting to do with this game.

Well, straight relationships are in the game, and a major part of it, so I would say the absence of gay/lesbian relationships has somethign to do with it.

So please try to refrain from inflicting your political views on true gamers.

We spend money on their games just the same as you. Your money spent on Bioware is as equal as my money spent on Bioware.

I think the fact I bought every Bioware game (except Sonic Chronicles ) proves that, especially the ones I bought more than once.

Troll, troll, go away! Come again another day!

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 18 décembre 2010 - 01:35 .

[Bocks]

hawkmoondirge wrote...

I think, and someone correct me if I'm wrong here, is it's about equality and freedom. If I could, romance Zevran in DAO or Leliana as their same sex the option to do so should be there. I am not gay, but the option to do so for someone who is roleplaying a homosexual character should be allowed to do so. People care because consisrtancy is something we all like. Don't let me have my elven assassin pool boy in DAO but not have Jack, who is clearly promiscious, in that sense. Now in games , especially rpgs the chance to simulate or have a same sex relatioonship shouyld be allowed, especially for game slike these. If the Sims can do it, so can mass effect 3.

Signed/

People look at romance options way too much and it's starting to appear everywhere in the game. LotSB, Gianna Parasini giving you a kiss, Shiala suggesting to go out with you. For the last two, sure- they're short scenes! However, they had to be planned out and have animation work done for them, writing done for them and TIME spent on them. This is a game about saving civilization from a race of sentient starships that want to conquer the galaxy (NOT a dating sim) and this is a forum to discuss just that.

I have nothing against love interests or romantic moments, but when people start trying to tell the Bioware employees how to make ME3 (which, unfortunately, the employees listen to), it kinda takes away time from focus on other aspects of the game.

Rant/

[LoveAsThouWilt]

redbaron76 wrote...

I have no idea how people can try to push apolitical view on a game. Same sex relationships should not be discussed on mass effect forum since they have noting to do with this game. So please try to refrain from inflicting your political views on true gamers.

Your seriously pulling this card? "true gamers?" seriously what does this even mean. Someone that is dedicated to playing a good game with a great story? Someone who plays soley for the fun? There is no definition on such a term. and that statement that samesex relationships don't have anything to do with mass effect:

Nef and Morinth on Omega
Female Shepard and Liara
Some dude from the Mass Effect novels - somewhat main character
Kaidan Alenko - written to be romanced by Male and Female Shepard both. The former was taken out for reasons never given.

[redbaron76]

To LoveAsThouWilt



Grow up. Pushing for more same sex relations on the mass effect is political. It does have noting to do with the game. So get real. asari appear female, but they are more adrogenous than true female. So people should stop promoting political agenda in the games.

[Ryzaki]

redbaron76 wrote...

To LoveAsThouWilt

Grow up. Pushing for more same sex relations on the mass effect is political. It does have noting to do with the game. So get real. asari appear female, but they are more adrogenous than true female. So people should stop promoting political agenda in the games.

....Have you ever seen an androgynous person? They do not look like the asari and they do not have curvy figures. (That would give away the gender).

Gah. It's dictionary time.

• Having the characteristics of both male and female in one individual
• Hermaphrodite
• Having both male and female flowers (botany)

The thing with androgy is that it's hard to tell if the person is male or female. There is no such confusion with the Asari. They are very obviously female with the figures.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 décembre 2010 - 01:49 .

[MisterDyslexo]

redbaron76 wrote...

To LoveAsThouWilt

Grow up. Pushing for more same sex relations on the mass effect is political. It does have noting to do with the game. So get real. asari appear female, but they are more adrogenous than true female. So people should stop promoting political agenda in the games.

*points to my above post*

Need I repeat?

[Eromenos]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
I have facepalmed and headdesked over BioWare's dancing around this issue in the past, but the bottom line is I still like their games, and I'm still going to buy their games, and I'm still going to play their games, even if they don't sort out this particular issue to my satisfaction quickly enough. I'm not going to turn my back on Mass Effect out of spite.

I will continue to support the Fight For The Love cause, and I'm firmly in the Big Ben Sniper For Same-Sex LI camp. If someone makes a group for that, I'll join it.

This. All of it. 

I can appreciate the dissatisfaction of some people with Bioware's actions, and I can understand how this may be interpreted as unfair if not discriminatory. But nothing helpful comes from denigrating the entire studio as a participant in some sort of mass-media homophobic conspiracy. These posts by David Gaider give a good explanation of what the issues involved with same-sex content in videogames are from a developer's perspective.

With respect, I can't see the point in being deliberately contrarian or strident about this issue. Demanding anything from Bioware is presumptuous and possibly detrimental. We can suggest - with all the evidence we can muster - that the inclusion of same-sex romances would only improve the storytelling experience in future Mass Effect games. That is what I hope this thread has tried to accomplish, and it's a credit to its participants that we haven't (yet) been shut down again. 

Whether or not Bioware takes a moment's notice of anything in this thread, I'll still be playing Mass Effect 3 - because there is more to my appreciation of games' value than whether or not they include same-sex content. 

With that in mind, Big Ben Sniper Guy for Same-Sex Love Interest in ME3! 

Gaider's excuse for DAO's marginalization is a weak defense, coming in at the tail-end of the first paragraph in his #3 point. Minority-inclusion should be done with respect, not feigned.

IIRC, Zevran hesitates if the Warden is male, asking us if it's an issue that we're both male. I doubt there are such hang-ups with female Wardens. That is sensitivity towards majority prejudice, unnecessary and at the expense of the minority. I can go on with more, but this isn't a DAO thread. But so much for Gaider's supposed good deed.

[redbaron76]

The only troll is you.



I am not dissing anybody. I am just saying that I am sick of reading politiccal opinions on a forum of a great game. Political views should stay of this forums, because there are people like me that do not appriciate politics in the game forums.

[Ryzaki]

@Eromenos: Don't you think that's a bit harsh? I mean granted Leliana couldn't be refused most of the damn time but Zevran was there if nothing else.



Even if I hated the slimey little cretin.