9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Pwner1323]

LoveAsThouWilt wrote...

Pwner1323 wrote...

Everytime I see this thread popping up I ask myself why BW has remained so silent regarding this matter.

Very peculiar.......

Indeed. Tight lipped and ignorant.  Every time I reiterate that I love Bioware but am irritated by them it feels less sincere at this point.


*runs off to make my own damn game with what I want since they wont even ACKNOWLEDGE this fanbase*

I feel ya. ME is such a good game and it pains me to see people who's experience is crushed. It may be too much to hope for a M/M romance in ME3, but at least you're not stuck with Miranda. Damn broad won't leave me along! NAG NAG NAG!

I sometimes wonder if being gay is easier. Everytime I get close to a girl they say they only want to be friends, while in the sidelines I have gay men falling for me left and right. True story.

Romancing women in the future seems too easy, or Shepard wear too much AXE.....

Modifié par Pwner1323, 19 décembre 2010 - 04:58 .

[LoveAsThouWilt]

Pwner1323 wrote...

LoveAsThouWilt wrote...

Pwner1323 wrote...

Everytime I see this thread popping up I ask myself why BW has remained so silent regarding this matter.

Very peculiar.......

Indeed. Tight lipped and ignorant.  Every time I reiterate that I love Bioware but am irritated by them it feels less sincere at this point.


*runs off to make my own damn game with what I want since they wont even ACKNOWLEDGE this fanbase*

I feel ya. ME is such a good game and it pains me to see people who's experience is crushed. It may be too much to hope for a M/M romance in ME3, but at least you're not stuck with Miranda. Damn broad won't leave me along! NAG NAG NAG!

I sometimes wonder if being gay is easier. Everytime I get close to a girl they say they only want to be friends, while in the sidelines I have gay men falling for me left and right. True story.

Romancing women in the future seems too easy, or Shepard wear too much AXE.....

I hear you all 4 playthrough Miranda has wanted me but I kindly turned her down. Once for Liara, Once for Tali, and Twice for the man he cannot have.

Ironically both times I went solo (no romance cause no Kaidan) Jack always thought I wanted her... I'm like... no, your creepy.

[Pwner1323]

Jack= creepy



AGREED



BW= scared of lawsuits



AGREED

[Eromenos]

kill_switch_423 wrote...

I understand the frustration, but I have to interject... what's wrong with being sensitive to people who are uncomfortable with homosexuality?  Not everyone who is uncomfortable with the idea is a bad person.  If you can't be sensitive to those with deeply held aversions to homosexuality, how can you expect the same respect?  Just sayin'.  Keep fighting the good fight.


Edit: I feel the need to point out, as this is the internet, that I am NOT in any way defending the people who legitimately hate or proactively discriminate against homosexuality.  Only for those people who find themselves uncomfortable with the subject, but have no problem with how others live their lives.  I know people like this, and they are good people.  Hell, one of our mutual friends is homosexual and they have no problem hanging out with them.

Homophobic hatred against gay people is an abusive expression by those who enjoy comforts from being part of establishment authority, from having safety in numbers, and from privileges in unduly broader choices.

Zevran flirts with us more than any of the companions. He could've asked about our feelings on that without bringing in homophobia. BioWare did it as a convenient disclaimer to segue into their own defense for not allowing same-sex relations to be apparent and regular in yet another one of their game-worlds. Simply put, they did not allow for M/M without also inserting homophobia into DA. Homophobia was written into DA, which is BioWare's excuse for keeping M/M and F/F vastly low-key compared to the quantity of M/F we run into. That's not any kind of support or respect for queer people. It's an apology to people who hate us.

Think of ME2...whether we're straight or gay or bi and all the others in the spectrum, we're liable to blunder into M/F romances with our squadmates just from trying to be nice to them. Any disclaimers or "consideration" for us gay gamers who don't get to have anything for ourselves from these encounters? I know that even straight gamers would've appreciated quality and texture rather than BioWare's focus on excessive and shallow quantity of flirtations and sex in ME2.

There should be no disclaimers...such things imply wrongness about what is to follow. BioWare needs to write relationships for adults, not for people who have adolescent maturity.

I do appreciate your general support.

Modifié par Eromenos, 19 décembre 2010 - 05:21 .

[kill_switch_423]

Eromenos wrote...

kill_switch_423 wrote...

I understand the frustration, but I have to interject... what's wrong with being sensitive to people who are uncomfortable with homosexuality?  Not everyone who is uncomfortable with the idea is a bad person.  If you can't be sensitive to those with deeply held aversions to homosexuality, how can you expect the same respect?  Just sayin'.  Keep fighting the good fight.


Edit: I feel the need to point out, as this is the internet, that I am NOT in any way defending the people who legitimately hate or proactively discriminate against homosexuality.  Only for those people who find themselves uncomfortable with the subject, but have no problem with how others live their lives.  I know people like this, and they are good people.  Hell, one of our mutual friends is homosexual and they have no problem hanging out with them.

Homophobic hatred against gay people is an abusive expression by those who enjoy comforts from being part of establishment authority, from having safety in numbers, and from privileges in unduly broader choices.

Zevran flirts with us more than any of the companions. He could've asked about our feelings on that without bringing in homophobia. BioWare did it as a convenient disclaimer to segue into their own defense for not allowing same-sex relations be apparent and regular in yet another one of their game-worlds. Simply put, they did not allow for M/M without also inserting homophobia into DA. Homophobia was written into DA, which is BioWare's excuse for keeping M/M and F/F vastly low-key compared to the quantity of M/F we run into.

Think of ME2...whether we're straight or gay or bi and all the others in the spectrum, we're liable to blunder into M/F romances with our squadmates just from trying to be nice to them. Any disclaimers or "consideration" for us gay gamers who don't get to have anything for ourselves from these encounters? I know that even straight gamers would've appreciated quality and texture rather than BioWare's focus on excessive and shallow quantity of flirtations and sex.

There should be no disclaimers...such things imply wrongness about what is to follow. BioWare needs to write relationships for adults, not for people who have adolescent maturity.

I do appreciate your general support.

I appreciate your appreciation, lol. 

However, I still disagree about the line with Zev (who I actually liked because he legitimately reminds me of a RL friend of mine).  But, I don't want this to turn into a DA thread (again); though I do have this to add:

Plenty of my homosexual friends make sure that people they are interested in are comfortable with the idea before proceeding further, especially if that person has not been openly homosexual with them in the past.  I saw it as a realistic line of dialogue from my RL experiences.  Those situations happen in real life, and I wouldn't expect them not to in a video game.  Especially one set in the distant past, where it was arguably less tolerated than it is today. 

[BrianWilly]

So hey, on a vaguely related note, the US Senate voted to repeal "Don't Ask Don't Tell" yesterday morning.

So no more of that "MARINES CAN'T BE GAAAAYYY" nonsense from the detractors.

Not that servicemen and women couldn't have been gay before yesterday morning, of course.

Modifié par BrianWilly, 19 décembre 2010 - 05:25 .

[hypothead]

I think it would be cool to have more options femshep can get with anyone under the sun but where is the man love at plus tali and femshep would be such a win.

Modifié par hypothead, 19 décembre 2010 - 05:25 .

[LoveAsThouWilt]

Eromenos wrote...

kill_switch_423 wrote...

I understand the frustration, but I have to interject... what's wrong with being sensitive to people who are uncomfortable with homosexuality?  Not everyone who is uncomfortable with the idea is a bad person.  If you can't be sensitive to those with deeply held aversions to homosexuality, how can you expect the same respect?  Just sayin'.  Keep fighting the good fight.


Edit: I feel the need to point out, as this is the internet, that I am NOT in any way defending the people who legitimately hate or proactively discriminate against homosexuality.  Only for those people who find themselves uncomfortable with the subject, but have no problem with how others live their lives.  I know people like this, and they are good people.  Hell, one of our mutual friends is homosexual and they have no problem hanging out with them.

Homophobic hatred against gay people is an abusive expression by those who enjoy comforts from being part of establishment authority, from having safety in numbers, and from privileges in unduly broader choices.

Zevran flirts with us more than any of the companions. He could've asked about our feelings on that without bringing in homophobia. BioWare did it as a convenient disclaimer to segue into their own defense for not allowing same-sex relations to be apparent and regular in yet another one of their game-worlds. Simply put, they did not allow for M/M without also inserting homophobia into DA. Homophobia was written into DA, which is BioWare's excuse for keeping M/M and F/F vastly low-key compared to the quantity of M/F we run into. That's not any kind of support or respect for queer people. It's an apology to people who hate us.

Think of ME2...whether we're straight or gay or bi and all the others in the spectrum, we're liable to blunder into M/F romances with our squadmates just from trying to be nice to them. Any disclaimers or "consideration" for us gay gamers who don't get to have anything for ourselves from these encounters? I know that even straight gamers would've appreciated quality and texture rather than BioWare's focus on excessive and shallow quantity of flirtations and sex in ME2.

There should be no disclaimers...such things imply wrongness about what is to follow. BioWare needs to write relationships for adults, not for people who have adolescent maturity.

I do appreciate your general support.

Well said! Never thought about the disclaimer bit and thanks for bringing that up. The game is rated M for mature so HOP TO IT Bioware and treat us like adults.

I laughed when 2 topics came up on Xbox360 dashboard via ign walkthrough/guide things: A hows to guide to romance in Mass Effect 2 (serious? SUPER DAMN EASY), and Keep loyalty IE/everyone survive loyalty mission (again self explanatory and EASY. at least it has been such to me each time through the game).

hypothead wrote...

I think it would be cool to have more
options femshep can get with anyone under the sun but where is the man
love at plus tali and femshep would be such a win.

Lets make a deal lol I'll give you my MShepard's Tali for your FShepard, and you give me your FShepard's Kaidan win win

Modifié par LoveAsThouWilt, 19 décembre 2010 - 05:29 .

[Eromenos]

Phantom Actuality wrote...

@Eromenos
I'll let someone else debate you over the quality of the content.  I understand what you're saying.  All of the relationships as a whole, gay and straight, are nothing to behold as fine dramatic experiences, and we certainly shouldn't be looking for guidance from any of them, that's for sure.  And if you're looking for guidance, then you're looking in the wrong place. 

I noticed that about Zevran.  I figured some people would have a problem with the fact that he can be killed off that early.  I would hate to think that the fact that Zevran can be killed off so early, was done deliberately by Bioware because of his sexual orientation.  Btw, I was able to attain him before Oghren though I think, so he's not necessarily the last one.

Edit:  And that might be a spoiler, so I have to watch that.  This is the non spoiler forum.  I shouldn't be getting too deeply into DA anyway though, since this is the ME forum as well.

Pointing to Zevran as an example of same-sex acceptance is like saying
Oprah alone represents improved race depictions on TV. Such ideas are
no more than wishful thinking at best, but more often just lies being
cooked up.

That's what I wrote, and I think that's what you meant about me and "guidance." I'm not looking for guidance. But many people who play this content do unconsciously accept what they experience as either guidance or reinforcement for what they believe/know.

For a gamer who is either ignorant of or belligerent against queer people, the images given by BioWare have stated-

-Few (outnumbered 1:1000)
-Strange (hangups about attraction)
-Sinister (insincerity)
-Tragic (deaths and or break-ups, no exceptions for this one)
-Bisexual (always available for M/F if he or she likes the gamer)
-Silent (if inferred)
-Nonexistent (for those who give credit to the party line about ME)

[Pwner1323]

BrianWilly wrote...

Not that servicemen and women couldn't have been gay before yesterday morning, of course.

 BUUUURNED!


[Back on topic]

Hmm.... homophobia in DA? really? that seems kinda strange. Can you explain that one to me in more detail please? I read you're post but couldn't wrap my head around it.

Modifié par Pwner1323, 19 décembre 2010 - 05:40 .

[kill_switch_423]

@Eromenos: Ah, I think I understand the argument much more clearly now. You aren't worried that the games will make people homophobic, only that it will (unintentionally) cause those with homophobic tendencies to become further set in those tendencies. If such is the case, I now fully support everything in this thread. Thing is all BW really needs to do is give at least one positive example of a lasting homosexual relationship to counter the numerous negative depictions. Also, Mshep x Alenko or BB = win.  Edit:  Also, my FemShep would love some Tali or Williams action. Just sayin', the blue chick thing gets old.

Modifié par kill_switch_423, 19 décembre 2010 - 05:43 .

[LoveAsThouWilt]

kill_switch_423 wrote...

@Eromenos: Ah, I think I understand the argument much more clearly now. You aren't worried that the games will make people homophobic, only that it will (unintentionally) cause those with homophobic tendencies to become further set in those tendencies. If such is the case, I now fully support everything in this thread. Thing is all BW really needs to do is give at least one positive example of a lasting homosexual relationship to counter the numerous negative depictions. Also, Mshep x Alenko or BB = win.  Edit:  Also, my FemShep would love some Tali or Williams action. Just sayin', the blue chick thing gets old.

THANK YOU *bows* My Alenko or.... at least a man's man. Big Ben is more so that as Kaidan is more than tortured soul or puppy you just want to hug lol

I would like to see a great positive example of a M/M romance in a game and Mass Effect, having had the perfect character for it and opportunity for it was the real hang up for me. I love Shepard. I love his romance with Tali, his with Liara, and his.... not allowed romance with Kaidan. Anyone else, isn't fitting for me yet besides whomever enters Mass Effect 3.

Modifié par LoveAsThouWilt, 19 décembre 2010 - 05:52 .

[MisterDyslexo]

I didn't really that Zevran asking thing as a problem. I mean it sorta comes with same-sex flirtation. A guy hitting on a random girl can get shrugged off and at worst is called an ****. A guy hitting on another guy could end up uncomfortable for both parties... sometimes violently so. And its just factual you're more likely to come across a straight person than gay/bisexual, so unless the stranger is holding up a sign say "Hello. I'm [straight][gay/bisexual] so feel free to hit on me if you're of the [opposite][same sex][either sex]." there's no real way to know. Zevran knew nothing of The Warden sexual behaviors, and had no way of knowing (unless he went to The Pearl <_<) so he felt inclined to ask. Nothing wrong with that IMO. Its not really like Morrigan was exactly hitting on a male warden to begin with, and neither was Alistair.

What I do dislike is just the blantant hitting-on of the PC in the games, most notably Mass Effect. This happens more than once, and quite frankly there's always one that somebody doesn't like. For me that was Tali, which to me felt very wrong. There are plenty others and quite frankly this is the fear of some people, that somebody of the same sex will go straight to ass-grabbing. That sorta kinda happened with Shiala on Ilium already, and while I don't know how that went, I remember what went down about Fargoth on the Morrowind forums...

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 19 décembre 2010 - 05:56 .

[Pwner1323]

When you say "Big Ben" you mean Ben the British sniper, right? I sure hope so........

[kill_switch_423]

LoveAsThouWilt wrote...

kill_switch_423 wrote...

@Eromenos: Ah, I think I understand the argument much more clearly now. You aren't worried that the games will make people homophobic, only that it will (unintentionally) cause those with homophobic tendencies to become further set in those tendencies. If such is the case, I now fully support everything in this thread. Thing is all BW really needs to do is give at least one positive example of a lasting homosexual relationship to counter the numerous negative depictions. Also, Mshep x Alenko or BB = win.  Edit:  Also, my FemShep would love some Tali or Williams action. Just sayin', the blue chick thing gets old.

THANK YOU *bows* My Alenko or.... at least a man's man. Big Ben is more so that as Kaidan is more than tortured soul or puppy you just want to hug lol

I would like to see a great positive example of a M/M romance in a game and Mass Effect, having had the perfect character for it and opportunity for it was the real hang up for me. I love Shepard. I love his romance with Tali, his with Liara, and his.... not allowed romance with Kaidan. Anyone else, isn't fitting for me yet besides whomever enters Mass Effect 3.

Aye, the only relationships my MShep has had are Tali, Liara, and Ashley.  My Shep distrusts Cerberus too much to get with Miranda (though ~spoiler~ME2 ending may change his opinion in ME3 if possible~spoiler~) and Jack is effin' psycho, even for my renegade Shep.  My FemShep has fallen in love with Liara and Garrus, and thought about Jacob for about two missions before realizing how much of a tool he is.  I'm all for more options in an RPG, especially the romances because I'm a sap for that sort of thing

[ElitePinecone]

Pwner1323 wrote...

When you say "Big Ben" you mean Ben the British sniper, right? I sure hope so........

Yes 

[Eromenos]

kill_switch_423 wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

kill_switch_423 wrote...

I understand the frustration, but I have to interject... what's wrong with being sensitive to people who are uncomfortable with homosexuality?  Not everyone who is uncomfortable with the idea is a bad person.  If you can't be sensitive to those with deeply held aversions to homosexuality, how can you expect the same respect?  Just sayin'.  Keep fighting the good fight.


Edit: I feel the need to point out, as this is the internet, that I am NOT in any way defending the people who legitimately hate or proactively discriminate against homosexuality.  Only for those people who find themselves uncomfortable with the subject, but have no problem with how others live their lives.  I know people like this, and they are good people.  Hell, one of our mutual friends is homosexual and they have no problem hanging out with them.

Homophobic hatred against gay people is an abusive expression by those who enjoy comforts from being part of establishment authority, from having safety in numbers, and from privileges in unduly broader choices.

Zevran flirts with us more than any of the companions. He could've asked about our feelings on that without bringing in homophobia. BioWare did it as a convenient disclaimer to segue into their own defense for not allowing same-sex relations be apparent and regular in yet another one of their game-worlds. Simply put, they did not allow for M/M without also inserting homophobia into DA. Homophobia was written into DA, which is BioWare's excuse for keeping M/M and F/F vastly low-key compared to the quantity of M/F we run into.

Think of ME2...whether we're straight or gay or bi and all the others in the spectrum, we're liable to blunder into M/F romances with our squadmates just from trying to be nice to them. Any disclaimers or "consideration" for us gay gamers who don't get to have anything for ourselves from these encounters? I know that even straight gamers would've appreciated quality and texture rather than BioWare's focus on excessive and shallow quantity of flirtations and sex.

There should be no disclaimers...such things imply wrongness about what is to follow. BioWare needs to write relationships for adults, not for people who have adolescent maturity.

I do appreciate your general support.

I appreciate your appreciation, lol. 

However, I still disagree about the line with Zev (who I actually liked because he legitimately reminds me of a RL friend of mine).  But, I don't want this to turn into a DA thread (again); though I do have this to add:

Plenty of my homosexual friends make sure that people they are interested in are comfortable with the idea before proceeding further, especially if that person has not been openly homosexual with them in the past.  I saw it as a realistic line of dialogue from my RL experiences.  Those situations happen in real life, and I wouldn't expect them not to in a video game.  Especially one set in the distant past, where it was arguably less tolerated than it is today. 

For me, giving credit to homophobic social standards in DAO is no different from trying to make nice with BioWare's silent support of DADT in their ME1 and ME2. Most certainly ME3 will also be homophobic despite today's actual DADT repeal. Finally good news for the real troops, that.

Sure, homophobia is part of RL. It's also bad taste for BioWare to support it in any form, and they happen to be hitting on all of them except for the one that people have grown accustomed to thinking is the only true form of gay-bashing: Hate-crime. Homophobia doesn't begin or end at the big thing, at the overt instances. Instead a thousand casual cuts are as bad if not worse than being openly attacked in some way. The former allows for plausible deniability with most people who only look for obvious malice. The latter invites contemporary retribution, or at least bad press. One of these two is at play in BioWare's games.

ETA: Sorry, posted before your edit.

Modifié par Eromenos, 19 décembre 2010 - 06:04 .

[MisterDyslexo]

Pwner1323 wrote...

When you say "Big Ben" you mean Ben the British sniper, right? I sure hope so........

No, we mean the actual clock tower. Since it seems unlikely that we'll get a true s/s romance in ME3, we've given up and figured we're more likely to get it on with an old building.

For the renegade romance, we get to enter in through the back door:devil:

/sarcasm off

Yeah but isn't he dreamy:wub:

[Pwner1323]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Pwner1323 wrote...

When you say "Big Ben" you mean Ben the British sniper, right? I sure hope so........

Yes 

He was good looking in a shrugged-hardened-confident way. I hope he becomes a squadmate.

THAT SHOT WAS RIDICULOUS!

He being a LI for only Malesheps would be a milestone for ME fans of homosexual orientation. Hope you get. Femshep doesn't need another priiiice...... that's for sure.

[Pwner1323]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Pwner1323 wrote...

When you say "Big Ben" you mean Ben the British sniper, right? I sure hope so........

No, we mean the actual clock tower. Since it seems unlikely that we'll get a true s/s romance in ME3, we've given up and figured we're more likely to get it on with an old building.

For the renegade romance, we get to enter in through the back door:devil:

/sarcasm off

Yeah but isn't he dreamy:wub:

Sorry to hear that......

XD

[Pwner1323]

Phantom Actuality wrote...

Eromenos wrote...
That's what I wrote, and I think that's what you meant about me and "guidance." I'm not looking for guidance. But many people who play this content do unconsciously accept what they experience as either guidance or reinforcement for what they believe/know.

For a gamer who is either ignorant of or belligerent against queer people, the images given by BioWare have stated-

-Few (outnumbered 1:1000)
-Strange (hangups about attraction)
-Sinister (insincerity)
-Tragic (deaths and or break-ups, no exceptions for this one)
-Bisexual (always available for M/F if he or she likes the gamer)
-Silent (if inferred)
-Nonexistent (for those who give credit to the party line about ME)

I think you're looking at the wrong area.  This needs to be done at home.  Wanting more gay content there so you can enjoy the game is one thing.  Wanting to remove specific content and adding specific content because of your own fear of how players will interpret that content, is totally different.

Forget sexuality for a second.  Look at all the violence in these games.  Should all of the violence be taken out of the games?  See, this is why I brought up censorship yesterday.  How can you lobby for a game developer to add positive content to homosexuality, and subtract the negative content of homosexuality, because it helps reinforce positive images of homosexuals, and totally ignore the violence in the game?  Doesn't that strike you as contradictory or hypocrytical?

Here it goes again..........

they're both good points, but it always ends in the same thing. Media, goverment, violence & racism.

Will it ever end?

[LoveAsThouWilt]

Phantom Actuality wrote...

Eromenos wrote...
That's what I wrote, and I think that's what you meant about me and "guidance." I'm not looking for guidance. But many people who play this content do unconsciously accept what they experience as either guidance or reinforcement for what they believe/know.

For a gamer who is either ignorant of or belligerent against queer people, the images given by BioWare have stated-

-Few (outnumbered 1:1000)
-Strange (hangups about attraction)
-Sinister (insincerity)
-Tragic (deaths and or break-ups, no exceptions for this one)
-Bisexual (always available for M/F if he or she likes the gamer)
-Silent (if inferred)
-Nonexistent (for those who give credit to the party line about ME)

I think you're looking at the wrong area.  This needs to be done at home.  Wanting more gay content there so you can enjoy the game is one thing.  Wanting to remove specific content and adding specific content because of your own fear of how players will interpret that content, is totally different.

Forget sexuality for a second.  Look at all the violence in these games.  Should all of the violence be taken out of the games?  See, this is why I brought up censorship yesterday.  How can you lobby for a game developer to add positive content to homosexuality, and subtract the negative content of homosexuality, because it helps reinforce positive images of homosexuals, and totally ignore the violence in the game?  Doesn't that strike you as contradictory, self serving,  or hypocrytical?

Good point for everyone. Violence exists on all levels, in all niches. Taking it away from where it all is is a diservice tot he game. All that is needed a positive M/M romance SOMEWHERE in SOME game. Wish it were this game, but I more or less have given up hope on Bioware on this regard. They are too tight lipped to answer and face the questions so its the equivalent of a punch to the gut that we aren't going to get what we would like to see.

So its down to hoping for future IPs future Mass Effect trilogy/whatnot. Maybe a new galaxy. The more with push for new ground in all areas of story telling the more likely we'll get what we want. If not from Bioware, then someone else.

[kill_switch_423]

Pwner1323 wrote...

Phantom Actuality wrote...

Eromenos wrote...
That's what I wrote, and I think that's what you meant about me and "guidance." I'm not looking for guidance. But many people who play this content do unconsciously accept what they experience as either guidance or reinforcement for what they believe/know.

For a gamer who is either ignorant of or belligerent against queer people, the images given by BioWare have stated-

-Few (outnumbered 1:1000)
-Strange (hangups about attraction)
-Sinister (insincerity)
-Tragic (deaths and or break-ups, no exceptions for this one)
-Bisexual (always available for M/F if he or she likes the gamer)
-Silent (if inferred)
-Nonexistent (for those who give credit to the party line about ME)

I think you're looking at the wrong area.  This needs to be done at home.  Wanting more gay content there so you can enjoy the game is one thing.  Wanting to remove specific content and adding specific content because of your own fear of how players will interpret that content, is totally different.

Forget sexuality for a second.  Look at all the violence in these games.  Should all of the violence be taken out of the games?  See, this is why I brought up censorship yesterday.  How can you lobby for a game developer to add positive content to homosexuality, and subtract the negative content of homosexuality, because it helps reinforce positive images of homosexuals, and totally ignore the violence in the game?  Doesn't that strike you as contradictory or hypocrytical?

Here it goes again..........

they're both good points, but it always ends in the same thing. Media, goverment, violence & racism.

Will it ever end?

Not unless the Old Machines come along to wipe us out, I'm afraid not.    Hatred is part of being human, as unfortunate as that is.  And I consider myself an optimist! >_>;;