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[Eromenos]

Phantom Actuality wrote...

Eromenos wrote...
That's what I wrote, and I think that's what you meant about me and "guidance." I'm not looking for guidance. But many people who play this content do unconsciously accept what they experience as either guidance or reinforcement for what they believe/know.

For a gamer who is either ignorant of or belligerent against queer people, the images given by BioWare have stated-

-Few (outnumbered 1:1000)
-Strange (hangups about attraction)
-Sinister (insincerity)
-Tragic (deaths and or break-ups, no exceptions for this one)
-Bisexual (always available for M/F if he or she likes the gamer)
-Silent (if inferred)
-Nonexistent (for those who give credit to the party line about ME)

I think you're looking at the wrong area.  This needs to be done at home.  Wanting more gay content there so you can enjoy the game is one thing.  Wanting to remove specific content and adding specific content because of your own fear of how players will interpret that content, is totally different.

Forget sexuality for a second.  Look at all the violence in these games.  Should all of the violence be taken out of the games?  See, this is why I brought up censorship yesterday.  How can you lobby for a game developer to add positive content to homosexuality, and subtract the negative content of homosexuality, because it helps reinforce positive images of homosexuals, and totally ignore the violence in the game?  Doesn't that strike you as contradictory, self serving,  or hypocrytical?

So you're saying it's not a problem that BioWare continually paints unfavorable depictions of an outnumbered minority whose concerns are only toyed with in their games?

And why are you grasping at violence issues? What does sensitivity to violence have anything to do with...are you..are you trying to label me as some gay advocate who must secretly be itching to preach about "sissy" merits of peace? Come now, I'm the one who openly stated I'm not here to build bridges. I'm all for gay Marine Commander Shepard busting heads and enraging homophobes who can't fathom the concept.

Don't divert from the sexuality issues. This whole thread is largely about misogynystic and homophobic abuses in ME2.

Modifié par Eromenos, 19 décembre 2010 - 06:22 .

[LoveAsThouWilt]

I'm a pessimist to a degree when it comes to Bioware at this point though I'm holding out hope on DA2 to give what I want. For Mass Effect I'll still let them know what I want/ed and badger about why our questions themselves are ignored and or dodged.

And if Bioware don't deliver, somewhere down the line some company will, even if I have to do it myself!


and Eromenos: this keeps getting better and better. Badass Shepard & Man busting head together? I think it would sell very well, more than post people realize.

Heck, why else to people watch MMA.

Modifié par LoveAsThouWilt, 19 décembre 2010 - 06:29 .

[Pwner1323]

kill_switch_423 wrote...

Pwner1323 wrote...

Phantom Actuality wrote...

Eromenos wrote...
That's what I wrote, and I think that's what you meant about me and "guidance." I'm not looking for guidance. But many people who play this content do unconsciously accept what they experience as either guidance or reinforcement for what they believe/know.

For a gamer who is either ignorant of or belligerent against queer people, the images given by BioWare have stated-

-Few (outnumbered 1:1000)
-Strange (hangups about attraction)
-Sinister (insincerity)
-Tragic (deaths and or break-ups, no exceptions for this one)
-Bisexual (always available for M/F if he or she likes the gamer)
-Silent (if inferred)
-Nonexistent (for those who give credit to the party line about ME)

I think you're looking at the wrong area.  This needs to be done at home.  Wanting more gay content there so you can enjoy the game is one thing.  Wanting to remove specific content and adding specific content because of your own fear of how players will interpret that content, is totally different.

Forget sexuality for a second.  Look at all the violence in these games.  Should all of the violence be taken out of the games?  See, this is why I brought up censorship yesterday.  How can you lobby for a game developer to add positive content to homosexuality, and subtract the negative content of homosexuality, because it helps reinforce positive images of homosexuals, and totally ignore the violence in the game?  Doesn't that strike you as contradictory or hypocrytical?

Here it goes again..........

they're both good points, but it always ends in the same thing. Media, goverment, violence & racism.

Will it ever end?

Not unless the Old Machines come along to wipe us out, I'm afraid not.    Hatred is part of being human, as unfortunate as that is.  And I consider myself an optimist! >_>;;

Well said. But maybe a little more direct support then whining in the forums would help more. Don't want to offend anyone but if you want M/M in ME3 and ol'Ben to spank ya you need to mobilize and petition it. they can't hide and keep silent forever but you can speed the process. You only have a year left before ME3 ships. That is plenty of time.

[kill_switch_423]

Pwner1323 wrote...

kill_switch_423 wrote...

Pwner1323 wrote...

Phantom Actuality wrote...

Eromenos wrote...
That's what I wrote, and I think that's what you meant about me and "guidance." I'm not looking for guidance. But many people who play this content do unconsciously accept what they experience as either guidance or reinforcement for what they believe/know.

For a gamer who is either ignorant of or belligerent against queer people, the images given by BioWare have stated-

-Few (outnumbered 1:1000)
-Strange (hangups about attraction)
-Sinister (insincerity)
-Tragic (deaths and or break-ups, no exceptions for this one)
-Bisexual (always available for M/F if he or she likes the gamer)
-Silent (if inferred)
-Nonexistent (for those who give credit to the party line about ME)

I think you're looking at the wrong area.  This needs to be done at home.  Wanting more gay content there so you can enjoy the game is one thing.  Wanting to remove specific content and adding specific content because of your own fear of how players will interpret that content, is totally different.

Forget sexuality for a second.  Look at all the violence in these games.  Should all of the violence be taken out of the games?  See, this is why I brought up censorship yesterday.  How can you lobby for a game developer to add positive content to homosexuality, and subtract the negative content of homosexuality, because it helps reinforce positive images of homosexuals, and totally ignore the violence in the game?  Doesn't that strike you as contradictory or hypocrytical?

Here it goes again..........

they're both good points, but it always ends in the same thing. Media, goverment, violence & racism.

Will it ever end?

Not unless the Old Machines come along to wipe us out, I'm afraid not.    Hatred is part of being human, as unfortunate as that is.  And I consider myself an optimist! >_>;;

Well said. But maybe a little more direct support then whining in the forums would help more. Don't want to offend anyone but if you want M/M in ME3 and ol'Ben to spank ya you need to mobilize and petition it. they can't hide and keep silent forever but you can speed the process. You only have a year left before ME3 ships. That is plenty of time.

Hm... quick question, slightly off-topic.  I'm taking a road trip through Canada to Alaska next February, and BW HQ is right on the way.  Do they offer a tour, or a chance to talk to a dev in person?  If I get the chance, I may try and snag a few questions, the homosexuality issue top on my list. Maybe I'll get an answer... ah, there's that optimism

Also, I'm sure sending direct letters to the team may be more effective than the forum at this point.

[Pacifien]

Eromenos wrote...
Don't divert from the sexuality issues. This whole thread is largely about misogynystic and homophobic abuses in ME2.

I suppose that's what the thread is lately...

[Eromenos]

LoveAsThouWilt wrote...

Good point for everyone. Violence exists on all levels, in all niches. Taking it away from where it all is is a diservice tot he game. All that is needed a positive M/M romance SOMEWHERE in SOME game. Wish it were this game, but I more or less have given up hope on Bioware on this regard. They are too tight lipped to answer and face the questions so its the equivalent of a punch to the gut that we aren't going to get what we would like to see.

So its down to hoping for future IPs future Mass Effect trilogy/whatnot. Maybe a new galaxy. The more with push for new ground in all areas of story telling the more likely we'll get what we want. If not from Bioware, then someone else.

Would be nice if they do. They still haven't because it would be a bold and open declaration of support for M/M and F/F as being equal to M/F, which...they are afraid to give.

They know it will open the door forever, giving clear-cut ammunition to people as a reference-point: "Hey, you can't backpedal on us. You were doing so well!"

[LoveAsThouWilt]

Pwner1323 wrote...

Well said. But maybe a little more direct support then whining in the forums would help more. Don't want to offend anyone but if you want M/M in ME3 and ol'Ben to spank ya you need to mobilize and petition it. they can't hide and keep silent forever but you can speed the process. You only have a year left before ME3 ships. That is plenty of time.

I really don't know how to even begin a petition for such things. after all Bioware shuts down any thread with one word answers as "spamming" Even if its dedicated them! I did just make a poll regarding Big Ben. Plain and simple.

Modifié par LoveAsThouWilt, 19 décembre 2010 - 06:48 .

[Pacifien]

Please trim quotes when you post to include just enough information to give people the idea to who or what you're responding. People are reading the same thread as you, they don't need the previous five posts in the discussion quoted back at them.

[Wittand25]

Eromenos wrote...
Homophobic hatred against gay people is an abusive expression by those who enjoy comforts from being part of establishment authority, from having safety in numbers, and from privileges in unduly broader choices.

Zevran flirts with us more than any of the companions. He could've asked about our feelings on that without bringing in homophobia. BioWare did it as a convenient disclaimer to segue into their own defense for not allowing same-sex relations to be apparent and regular in yet another one of their game-worlds. Simply put, they did not allow for M/M without also inserting homophobia into DA. Homophobia was written into DA, which is BioWare's excuse for keeping M/M and F/F vastly low-key compared to the quantity of M/F we run into. That's not any kind of support or respect for queer people. It's an apology to people who hate us.

Think of ME2...whether we're straight or gay or bi and all the others in the spectrum, we're liable to blunder into M/F romances with our squadmates just from trying to be nice to them. Any disclaimers or "consideration" for us gay gamers who don't get to have anything for ourselves from these encounters? I know that even straight gamers would've appreciated quality and texture rather than BioWare's focus on excessive and shallow quantity of flirtations and sex in ME2.

There should be no disclaimers...such things imply wrongness about what is to follow. BioWare needs to write relationships for adults, not for people who have adolescent maturity.

I do appreciate your general support.

I am not going to discuss the DA:O romances here anymore because it is clear that you want to be offended and nothing I could say about them would change your mind. Also this is the wrong forum for that topic and there has already been a moderator warning.
Regarding romances in ME2, it is more than obvious that everyone thinks that they messed up here. There are many other threads discussing the way romances are handled in ME2. But with Miranda and Tali you can tell them that you are not interested as soon as they start talking about romance just like with Zevran in DA:O, I still have not found a way to deal with Jack that makes her not act like I left her in front of the altar though.

[LoveAsThouWilt]

Apologies, will do.


Everyone, lets keep the peace. We've all been nice and civil up to this point.

Modifié par LoveAsThouWilt, 19 décembre 2010 - 06:52 .

[MisterDyslexo]

kill_switch_423 wrote...
Also, I'm sure sending direct letters to the team may be more effective than the forum at this point.

Looking at this thread lately, I can't imagine why. I don't mean to offend anybody by this, but its been made mostly by criticizing and being very accusatory as of late, and seems very hostile. I know thats not how we are trying to be, but we all know the magic of the internet in how it can't translate sarcasm, humour, hostility, etc. A lot of its just personal attacks too. I mean when somebody pops in and says "I don't agree with this thread because 'insert logical reason here' and it should be ignored",  we (usually) shout them out proclaiming them to be a homophobe rather than try to make intellectual counters. I know this is a very serious thing, but this thread seems full of hate and whenever they see "New post on Fight for the Love" they're probably thinking "Oh great, we get called homophobic pricks some more". Everybody here has good intentions and tries to be respectful, but I just see all of this going down the drain because we're getting a little hot-headed about certain things.

Sorry, had to get that out. I'm not saying any of you are being jerks or nothing, but it seems self-destructive to build some of this thread on anger rather than any support of Bioware. /rant off don't kill me *shields up*

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 19 décembre 2010 - 07:04 .

[Pwner1323]

I still don't know why BW doesn't open up to M/M (what's the other one, S/S?). They would get scolded by the general media (or not) but they would be opening the door to many other companies to take leaps. M/M in DRAGONBORN? DEAD SPACE?



The ironic thing is that The Sims has always had M/M relationship sim. even to the extent of sex. The Sims is owned by EA. See where Im going?

[LoveAsThouWilt]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

 Everybody here has good intentions and tries to be respectful, but I just see all of this going down the drain because we're getting a little hot-headed about certain things.

Sorry, had to get that out. I'm not saying any of you are being jerks or nothing, but it seems self-destructive to build some of this thread on anger rather than any support of Bioware. /rant off don't kill me *shields up*

No worries. I didn't sense the hostility but if so perhaps everyone stops here for the night whom senses it to cool off and resume later?


Pwn - thats another reason why this is a big thing I think. Its not only that we want it dont its that it could have been done years ago with the start of the series as planned and paved the way potentially for other developers to take similar risks. Maybe not on the same page as me with it should have been done previously, but still. Its still an issue Bioware has yet to address this niche of fans as of yet.

Modifié par LoveAsThouWilt, 19 décembre 2010 - 07:13 .

[Eromenos]

Phantom Actuality wrote...

Eromenos wrote...
So you're saying it's not a problem that BioWare continually paints unfavorable depictions of an outnumbered minority whose concerns are only toyed with in their games?

And why are you grasping at violence issues? What does sensitivity to violence have anything to do with...are you..are you trying to label me as some gay advocate who must secretly be itching to preach about "sissy" merits of peace? Come now, I'm the one who openly stated I'm not here to build bridges. I'm all for gay Marine Commander Shepard busting heads and enraging homophobes who can't fathom the concept.

Don't divert from the sexuality issues. This whole thread is largely about misogynystic and homophobic abuses in ME2.

I'm saying that I have principles, and I stick to my principles.  I'm not grasping at anything, I try to stay consisent with my beliefs, as best as possible.

And really, you're asking about sensitivity to violence?  Come on, you're intelligent.  Don't tell me that it's ok to slash someone's head off, but it's not ok that Zevran is portayed negatively.  Self serving and hypocritical, that's what it is.

*shrug* I'm not one for gore. I'm not a fan of blood, so the most I can do is toggle off some options in the menu. But I see what you're getting at. Diverting to an issue that you feel you hold the high ground on.

I can play. BioWare games happen to be 3-D RPGs, and so I expect there to be violence. What degree of violence is permissible? Anything that fits with the narrative. Oh, I happen to favor casters. If Zevran pulls a flourishing decapitation on somebody, it's usually his own doing. I hate having to micromanage since that cuts into the epicness.

Wait, are you saying you're the peace advocate? I take it you mean it could be seen as wrong to purchase games which glorify violent behavior, in the same way that they also happen to glorify homophobia? Here's what you missed- everybody in the teams can commit violence. Not everybody in the team is allowed to love.

Modifié par Eromenos, 19 décembre 2010 - 07:13 .

[Pwner1323]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Looking at this thread lately, I can't imagine why. I don't mean to offend anybody by this, but its been made mostly by criticizing and being very accusatory as of late, and seems very hostile. I know thats not how we are trying to be, but we all know the magic of the internet in how it can't translate sarcasm, humour, hostility, etc. A lot of its just personal attacks too. I mean when somebody pops in and says "I don't agree with this thread because 'insert logical reason here' and it should be ignored",  we (usually) shout them out proclaiming them to be a homophobe rather than try to make intellectual counters. I know this is a very serious thing, but this thread seems full of hate and whenever they see "New post on Fight for the Love" they're probably thinking "Oh great, we get called homophobic pricks some more". Everybody here has good intentions and tries to be respectful, but I just see all of this going down the drain because we're getting a little hot-headed about certain things.

Sorry, had to get that out. I'm not saying any of you are being jerks or nothing, but it seems self-destructive to build some of this thread on anger rather than any support of Bioware. /rant off don't kill me *shields up*

He speaks the truth. I support sme sex romance even if it is a "SIN" and goes against everything I have been taught growing up in church. I think the gay community should be treated equally. In the end they go to hell (maybe, I don't know how God deals with these things even if the bible says it so boldly) and should at least enjoy the time they have here,

Sorry, like dislexo, I had something to get off my chest as well. Religion and Video Games don't match but it all ends up in the same pot at the end.

[LoveAsThouWilt]

Eromenos wrote...

Here's what you missed- everybody in the teams can commit violence. Not everybody in the team is allowed to love.

Perfect point right there. My interpretation/ opinion was that his being stereotyped/easy to kill made him another "negative" light when it comes to the S/S portrayals. Violence against the specific man IE homophobia is not the issue in my mind - but the lack of a possitive light for comparison for the player/viewer.

To be referee:

So as it stands everyone lets bygones be bygones and move ahead.


Now, lets discuss what we would like to SEE in romances/love interests. Not the current record of portrayal.

Modifié par LoveAsThouWilt, 19 décembre 2010 - 07:21 .

[AKFTF]

Hello everyone, I'd like to offer my support to the thread. I really wish it had been there from the beginning of the series, but we can still hope for the future.

[Wittand25]

Where does this media myth come from?
Really I cannot remember any note worthy media making any fuss about homosexual content in a game in the last decade. Sometimes you get neutral articles discussing it because it is still somewhat rare to get that content .
So fear of media backslash should be the least worry here.

[Pwner1323]

FOX jumped down BW's throat about sexual scenes in ME1. BW is scared it will happen again if they include S/S in ME.



That's my take on the subject anyway.....

[LoveAsThouWilt]

Pwner- Ironically since DA was given no flak for its inclusion. Perhaps the soap opera angle of tasteful romance in ME1 was so offensive? Seriously I missed Mass Effect 1 romances even if didn't have Kai when I choose Liara it was romantic and tasteful. The later was.. meh is that it? sort of thing. It was really played down especially for so called M rated game.

Wittand- I wonder that myself too. Its still vague where the real fear comes from.

Now seriously - what would you LIKE to see in future romances with the Mass Effect universe, even if its not Shepard's tale. Lets get off the how, why and why nots behind the issue. Lets get to the "what we'd see"

EDIT 1: Character development wise, personality wise in the character, difficulty romance, etc. This thread is "fight for the love" so anything Mass Effect and related to romances is suitable. So OUT WITH IT! lol

Edit 2: Witland, also I think it became a bigger thing since games began focusing more on narrative and the inclusion of romance in general. The first game to start it would be an interesting thing to find out.

Modifié par LoveAsThouWilt, 19 décembre 2010 - 07:33 .

[MisterDyslexo]

Wittand25 wrote...

Really I cannot remember any note worthy media making any fuss about homosexual content in a game in the last decade.

There never has been for specific s/s content in a game, but games themselves planty. And as we all know, ME1 got flamed on Fox News for its "Virtual rape at the push of a button" content. I'm assuming BW is trying to avoid and bad publicity, and well we all know how Fox News feel about the gays, so put those two together in a game that very much lends itself towards children, and they'll get something about converting children into "raging homosexual, HIV transmitting machine intent on infecting our people" (thats paraphrasing, but I've heard that by them before)

[Eromenos]

Wittand25 wrote...

Eromenos wrote...
Homophobic hatred against gay people is an abusive expression by those who enjoy comforts from being part of establishment authority, from having safety in numbers, and from privileges in unduly broader choices.

Zevran flirts with us more than any of the companions. He could've asked about our feelings on that without bringing in homophobia. BioWare did it as a convenient disclaimer to segue into their own defense for not allowing same-sex relations to be apparent and regular in yet another one of their game-worlds. Simply put, they did not allow for M/M without also inserting homophobia into DA. Homophobia was written into DA, which is BioWare's excuse for keeping M/M and F/F vastly low-key compared to the quantity of M/F we run into. That's not any kind of support or respect for queer people. It's an apology to people who hate us.

Think of ME2...whether we're straight or gay or bi and all the others in the spectrum, we're liable to blunder into M/F romances with our squadmates just from trying to be nice to them. Any disclaimers or "consideration" for us gay gamers who don't get to have anything for ourselves from these encounters? I know that even straight gamers would've appreciated quality and texture rather than BioWare's focus on excessive and shallow quantity of flirtations and sex in ME2.

There should be no disclaimers...such things imply wrongness about what is to follow. BioWare needs to write relationships for adults, not for people who have adolescent maturity.

I do appreciate your general support.

I am not going to discuss the DA:O romances here anymore because it is clear that you want to be offended and nothing I could say about them would change your mind. Also this is the wrong forum for that topic and there has already been a moderator warning.
Regarding romances in ME2, it is more than obvious that everyone thinks that they messed up here. There are many other threads discussing the way romances are handled in ME2. But with Miranda and Tali you can tell them that you are not interested as soon as they start talking about romance just like with Zevran in DA:O, I still have not found a way to deal with Jack that makes her not act like I left her in front of the altar though.

I only ever comment about Zevran when posters dredge him up out of belief that he's like their Oprah for people of color.

When it comes to Jack I find her to be realistic but BioWare's shortcomings for our potential responses were, as I think you agree, failure all the way. I would've clarified to her that she's one of us and that she is right to give in to wanting to belong, but not to hope for romance or sex with me. Not BioWare, though...if it's young, thin, and female, then all guys must want to hit that.

I'll take your word for it about Miranda. I extricate myself from the room with a neutral goodbye as soon as I detect the warning signs. The other choices seem like they might encourage her. BioWare was kind enough to allow me that escape, at least. But it does not excuse their assumption that a male Shepard must always be angling for sex/romance with the females, especially considering that gay men who play male Shepards are not allowed to have any choices of our own.

I sincerely doubt that Miranda and Tali ask us male Shepards if we might be disinterested because we might prefer men. That would be just too much for BioWare's pattern of homophobic appeasement. I know Tali does not ask that. If Miranda does, I might actually have more to talk about with her. Does she? I doubt it.

Unlike Zevran.

Modifié par Eromenos, 19 décembre 2010 - 07:33 .

[LoveAsThouWilt]

Eromenos wrote...

But it does not excuse their assumption that a male Shepard must always be angling for sex/romance with the females, especially considering that gay men who play male Shepards are not allowed to have any choices of our own.

I sincerely doubt that Miranda and Tali ask us male Shepards if we might be disinterested because we might prefer men. That would be just too much for BioWare's pattern of homophobic appeasement. I know Tali does not ask that. If Miranda does, I might actually have more to talk about with her. Does she? I doubt it.

Unlike Zevran.

Well to me... well me at least. It felt like I sort of kind of got to have my Shepard express his feelings for Kaidan via Kelly the yeomen. She herself voices that gender and species do not matter and after Horizon I got the opportunity to say that "i miss him" about kaidan which yielded M Shep saying "i wish we had more time together." something little but i take what i can get.
 
EDIT: Now tell me what you would LIKE to see. Describe a character, setting for sorts, etc.

Modifié par LoveAsThouWilt, 19 décembre 2010 - 07:38 .