9243 réponses à ce sujet

[LoveAsThouWilt]

kill_switch_423 wrote...

Nicely said, ditto. They need to be more involved with consequences on your characters personalities.

And I also loved the "previous mission" statements. I just wished that had more opinions on the rest of the crew as well.

Modifié par LoveAsThouWilt, 19 décembre 2010 - 08:17 .

[MisterDyslexo]

LoveAsThouWilt wrote...

kill_switch_423 wrote...

Nicely said, ditto. They need to be more involved with consequences on your characters personalities.

And I also loved the "previous mission" statements. I just wished that had more opinions on the rest of the crew as well.

I think that this isn;t so much a romance thing than just in general with all characters. Most characters were apathetic about things that they quite frankly should've cared about. Didymos dug up a great example with the Mordin loyalty mission:


Now of course the most impact would come from romances. The previous mission queries don't really affect anything. Kill the rachni queen, and Ashley doesn't see yo as being any more or less xenophobic, which males her character growth just the same, and she was sooo pissed about it too, but she's like "Oh thats okay. I'm worried that it eat my sisters, but you're just to sexy for me Kirk Shepard". This porbably deserves its own thread tbh *cough cough* I'm lazy *cough cough*

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 19 décembre 2010 - 08:39 .

[Pyrate_d]

Changing the established sexuality of a character is a bad idea. They could (and probably should) introduce a gay character (or multiple gay characters) in the next game. I'm frankly a little sick of bisexual characters in these games, and I think a homosexual character would be better.

[Ryzaki]

Gah I'm still that Big Ben siggy. *steals*

[lovgreno]

I got to say my gaydar liked both Ashley and Kaidan when I first met them. And they never said anything about being straight. I don't see why it shouldn't take more time for gay love to grow for Shep and Ash or Kaidan. I prefer stories where love grows slowly instead of the ultra fast kirkish seductions of most ME romances anyway. That made Talis and Garrus romances the best in ME2. Yeah I'm a total romantic sometimes. So yeah, zevranise them for ME3, that would be a easy way to include some gay loving. Retcon, yes it is, but that can be done well and make a better story.

[Eromenos]

shumworld wrote...

Kasumi comments about Jacob always had me ROFL.

"That Jacob. mmmmm I wonder if he has a interest in japanese cleptomaniacs. "

Kasumi sure moved on fast.

[LoveAsThouWilt]

Pyrate_d wrote...

Changing the established sexuality of a character is a bad idea. They could (and probably should) introduce a gay character (or multiple gay characters) in the next game. I'm frankly a little sick of bisexual characters in these games, and I think a homosexual character would be better.

I understand completely hence why to ME, personally, Garrus would not work for a Male Shepard. He's too much of my best friend than a romance. Kaidan on the other hand there was nothing about him that screamed "I ONLY LIKE CHICKS" that would make it implossible for a Male Shepard to seduce him in Mass Effect 3 after all that has happened between them. After all its less about gender in some regard and more about the character themselves. One does not need to be straight or gay to LIKE Shepard and find him charming or hot. I know straight males who are in no way gay but have no qualms admitting a man looks good and is cool whether it be his strength, etc. More or less "bromance" sort of thing in that regard.

Either way I'd LOVE a new romance for Male Shepard that is also a male in Mass Effect 3. I WANT Kaidan, but I'd settle for a good well made man for him. And I have to agree also with you opinion on Bisexual characters. It does get a bit silly. Just as I also agree making ALL allies romancable by all genders is stupid. Some characters just wouldn't go for that (seems, in my book, like Ashley wouldn't go for a woman either with her background how she was raised BUT then again back to my "bromance" there could be a "chickmance" thing where she fell in love with Shepard, the person, not the woman.)

Again my opinions

Also I'd like to thank everyone for keeping everything civil. This is the most civil and intelligent I've seen these discussions, for the most part, so good job and keep it up.

[matt-bassist]

gay male squadmates? do not want.

gay female squadmates? yes please!

male shep with 2 female squadmates in a monage? BOOYAH!

[LoveAsThouWilt]

matt-bassist wrote...

gay male squadmates? do not want.
gay female squadmates? yes please!
male shep with 2 female squadmates in a monage? BOOYAH!

I'll give you your monage women, but I am taking my gay male squadmates too. Double standards don't fly with me. If your for one adn not the other soley because you don't want to see it than thats low. Very low and immature.

Don't pursue such a relationship if you don't, just as I would welcome your desire for a monage with open arms, but I wouldn't pursue it myself.

[Ponchoe]

I would be satisfied with Big Ben as a s/s exclusive. Even bi.

[LoveAsThouWilt]

Ponchoe - Same here. I would rather him exclusive at this point since Shepard hasnt gotten no love from any man.... but I would welcome Big Ben or a new man as bi. Still would prefer Kaidan.

[Alarieliia]

Big Ben. Do wantz!

XD

[earthbornFemShep]

LoveAsThouWilt wrote...

matt-bassist wrote...

gay male squadmates? do not want.
gay female squadmates? yes please!
male shep with 2 female squadmates in a monage? BOOYAH!

I'll give you your monage women, but I am taking my gay male squadmates too. Double standards don't fly with me. If your for one adn not the other soley because you don't want to see it than thats low. Very low and immature.

Don't pursue such a relationship if you don't, just as I would welcome your desire for a monage with open arms, but I wouldn't pursue it myself.

yeah, I think the double standard is silly.  If you don't want a squadmate because he's gay, then don't recruit him or don't romance him.  But, it seems to make sense to have that option there for those who don't have those biases. 

Also, wanting a threesome is a bit off topic.  That's not a love interest, that's a fling.  This thread is called "Fight for the Love" not fight for the tang.  (EDIT: if you want a threesome, discuss that on a new thread)

Modifié par earthbornFemShep, 20 décembre 2010 - 12:29 .

[DarkLoneWarrior]

Personally me and most friends I know don't care for same-sex romance. I already don't like when I am just talking to another member and they say something along the lines of "I don't go that way". I prefer the way it is really.

[ElitePinecone]

MisterDyslexo wrote...
I think that this isn;t so much a romance thing than just in general with all characters. Most characters were apathetic about things that they quite frankly should've cared about. Didymos dug up a great example with the Mordin loyalty mission:

That's a really interesting video, and I suppose it highlights the limitations of the dialogue system and just how many variables can be included before the system becomes way too complex. I'm all for more nuanced romances or character relationships (lose Tali as a friend if you insult quarians, or something) - but we do need to acknowledge that every connection would have to be programmed, recorded and planned out by the designers. It can definitely be improved, but there's probably a limit to what we can expect from a game that still has physical constraints.

One area that really did implement this incredibly well was the Lair of the Shadow Broker DLC, which took a bunch of decisions (even ones made two games ago) and successfully mixed them together to make a credible confrontation with Vasir, and later a conversation with Liara. Whatever the final form of romances or character dialogue in ME3, I do hope it's similar to LotSB's level.

[Ertai]

I saw some posts saying, make garrus or smone else gay in ME3

there's no point forcing garrus etc to be gay in ME3, some are just best buddies, just are just BORN straight...understand that.

new gay chars would be okay. even for straight people to flirt around for attention (like it's IRL)



seems some miniorites (gaypeople) are a bit dissapointed n like some samesex chars too much



I'm not homophobic or anything, just my 2 cents

[Eromenos]

earthbornFemShep wrote...

yeah, I think the double standard is silly.  If you don't want a squadmate because he's gay, then don't recruit him or don't romance him.  But, it seems to make sense to have that option there for those who don't have those biases. 

Also, wanting a threesome is a bit off topic.  That's not a love interest, that's a fling.  This thread is called "Fight for the Love" not fight for the tang.  (EDIT: if you want a threesome, discuss that on a new thread)

The people disagreeing with M/M are the ones who worry that M/M will cut into BioWare's devotion towards creating their 3 wimmin every game who are hot-to-trot and just hoping to be petted, no matter what the nature of the protagonist is .

Modifié par Eromenos, 20 décembre 2010 - 03:18 .

[Eromenos]

Ertai wrote...

I saw some posts saying, make garrus or smone else gay in ME3
there's no point forcing garrus etc to be gay in ME3, some are just best buddies, just are just BORN straight...understand that.
new gay chars would be okay. even for straight people to flirt around for attention (like it's IRL)

seems some miniorites (gaypeople) are a bit dissapointed n like some samesex chars too much

I'm not homophobic or anything, just my 2 cents

So where are any of the ones who are born gay?

Garrus and Tali never mentioned liking men or women before ME2. After ME1, their sudden turnabout in ME2 came as the result of the clamoring for Garrus and Tali to be attracted to Shepard. Selectiveness of user feedback on BioWare's part is a given, yet why aliens and never same-sex humans? I wonder, I wonder.

So what makes you think BioWare would even consider introducing gay characters into ME3?

Modifié par Eromenos, 20 décembre 2010 - 03:16 .

[Sahariel]

Although I was against the concept of same sex romances for the Star Wars The Old Republic MMO, I have to say Mass Effect and Dragon Age are more mature franchises, so as far as I am concerned I can see no reason why they should not be included in ME, unless that isn't the story direction the writers wish to go in.



My only real concern would be for narrative cohesion, an NPC's sexual orientation should not be decided by the player. Too many games that do the same sex relationship thing just take the lazy route and make the NPC bisexual. Whereas if you are really going to meaningfully pursue alternative sexual orientations it needs to be understood that these aspects of a person are going to be very central to their makeup, and not simply subject to the whims of the protagonists player.



Also bear in mind that Mass Effect as a story is not a romance, like Romeo & Juliette or Brokeback Mountain. It has love interests like any good adventure story does, but it isn't a driving force behind that narrative. Rightly or wrongly there has been much more written and performed on screen relating to heterosexual relationships in adventures, and there are tropes, archetypes and audience expectations that make it easier to write believable sub plots for those relationships.



It may simply be that the ME writing team, as talented as they are do not have the inclination or ability to do the subject of same sex relationships justice, and if that turns out to be the case that decision has to be respected by the fanbase.

[LOST GAM3R]

lolwut?

[ElitePinecone]

Sahariel wrote...
Snipped for brevity.

I can appreciate the concerns for narrative cohesion, and it's very true that a botched implementation would in many respects be more unfortunate than the absence of same-sex romances. I have to take some issue, though, with the idea that a person's sexual orientation forms, or should form, the basis for their character - especially in 2185. One of the great strengths of the development of Mass Effect's characters is that they have significant depth, and generally can't be sorted into archetypes. Heterosexual romance options don't need a long backstory as to why they find Shepard alluring - the subtext is obvious through dialogue, and (most of the time) it's not difficult to stop the advances immediately. It would be refreshing if it were regarded as incidental to one's character (see, for example, the Kaidan-MShep cut romance a page or so back) rather than an angsty-plot issue, or worse, as something to make a huge deal out of. 

You do make a good point about audience expectations and tropes, but it would not be beyond the ability of a good writer to craft dialogue or events of this nature. Bioware have already invented and scripted relationships with five aliens from four different species; creating another few for same-sex romance options wouldn't appear to be so different (in that they both diverge from the archetypical human female+male). I'd prefer to have confidence in the writing team's abilities, were it decided that same-sex relationships ever be implemented. 

[Eromenos]

Sahariel wrote...

Although I was against the concept of same sex romances for the Star Wars The Old Republic MMO, I have to say Mass Effect and Dragon Age are more mature franchises, so as far as I am concerned I can see no reason why they should not be included in ME, unless that isn't the story direction the writers wish to go in.

You think that gay kids aren't going to be playing TOR? If they can hack it despite all the homophobia that goes on in WoW's trade-chat and forums, I'm sure TOR won't be that different for them. It definitely won't be much different, considering Star Wars' track record.

My only real concern would be for narrative cohesion, an NPC's sexual orientation should not be decided by the player. Too many games that do the same sex relationship thing just take the lazy route and make the NPC bisexual. Whereas if you are really going to meaningfully pursue alternative sexual orientations it needs to be understood that these aspects of a person are going to be very central to their makeup, and not simply subject to the whims of the protagonists player.

What are "alternative sexual orientations"? Deviations away from normality? Who or what reserves any privilege to impart those divisive terms?

You're fine with straight npcs all the way through because they're not "decided by the player." Any of the few so far who have been bisexual or gay(as yet nonexistent among squadmates in BioWare) are no more to you than simply appeasements to us?

Well, you're half-right. Each time BioWare has failed with those token offerings because they came with the added hypocrisy of allowing only a minority quantity(and quality) of same-sex attractions with squadmates while the majority of opposite-sex attractions were in a number equal to the total amount of potential attractions throughout each and every game.

Also bear in mind that Mass Effect as a story is not a romance, like Romeo & Juliette or Brokeback Mountain. It has love interests like any good adventure story does, but it isn't a driving force behind that narrative. Rightly or wrongly there has been much more written and performed on screen relating to heterosexual relationships in adventures, and there are tropes, archetypes and audience expectations that make it easier to write believable sub plots for those relationships.

BioWare devs call these relationships romances. The fanbase does too.

Combine M/M, F/F, and M/F in with the same characters. Done. Nobody loses then, but I'm dying to hear someone's claims to the contrary.

It may simply be that the ME writing team, as talented as they are do not have the inclination or ability to do the subject of same sex relationships justice, and if that turns out to be the case that decision has to be respected by the fanbase.

Stuck as oddities. That wouldn't have to be the case if the npcs could respond to attraction regardless of gender.

Modifié par Eromenos, 20 décembre 2010 - 04:05 .

[LoveAsThouWilt]

ElitePinecone wrote...

I agree completely. People who say it would damage the characters or story are just idiots to put it bluntly. If Bioware had the willingness to implement it, they damn well could do it just as well as the current romances where they are just as easy to romance as they are to turn down within Mass Effect.

The writing team are not idiots. They know how to write all manner of different characters. Give them the permission, and they'll deliver well.

[Siansonea]

matt-bassist wrote:
gay male squadmates? do not want.

gay female squadmates? yes please!

male shep with 2 female squadmates in a monage? BOOYAH!

<_<

DarkLoneWarrior wrote:
Personally me and most friends I know don't care for same-sex romance. I already don't like when I am just talking to another member and they say something along the lines of "I don't go that way". I prefer the way it is really.

<_<

LOST GAM3R wrote:
lolwut?

<_<
Congratulations. You are all steadfastly embodying the stereotype of the teenaged shooter fan. Thanks for playing.

Now if you could transcend your physiological and cultural programming long enough to contribute something meaningful to the discussion, that would be great.

[catabuca]

In response to the relatively old Kotaku article that was brought up a while back, here is my comment I posted underneath it at the time. It sums up everything I feel about this issue in the most eloquent (and long-winded, sorry) way I can explain it:

I said ...



1) Firstly, as others have noted, the PG-13 excuse: 13 year-olds can't buy the game, it's rated M. Why have the rest of that mature content if you're trying to go for the PG-13 crowd? Does not compute. I call bull****. And I won't even get started on the implication that homosexuality is somehow more explicit than heterosexuality. Getting Kelly to dance like a **** in your quarters = PG-13. Ramming Miranda up against the rail in engineering = PG-13. Falling in love with another man = cover your eyes kids, too explicit!!11!

2) Secondly, in terms of Shepard being a predefined character: this comes up all over the place, that Shepard is voiced, that it's supposed to be more like directing a film etc. Hmm, yes, this applies when it suits, but doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Marketing abounded with phrases like "How will *your* Shepard save the galaxy", with the emphasis always being on ways you can customise your game and make Shepard your own. This desire to allow customisation is born out from the basics like sex and appearance to his/her pre-service history, and right through to the complex choices throughout and the sliding scale of paragon/renegade. In fact, that there are several romance choices in the first place is an example of this level of customisation. The devs made no pre-ordained decision that Shepard was the type of person who didn't fancy aliens - they left it open to player choice. This isn't Uncharted 2, where Drake has 1 path that was written by the devs; ME is a choice-rich game and the inclusion of diverse romance choices in the first place makes the glaring omission of homosexual options all the more obvious and suspicious.

3) Which brings me on to number three, the decision about prioritising other content: that real homosexual options are excluded when Garrus and Tali were included in ME2 (at the behest of the fans) is a headscratcher. Devs wanted to expand the options for romance, and to please fans, and so they worked to create all new content, and plenty of it, but only if it was hetero content. On the same topic, I'm sure most people know that homosexual options WERE planned for both games, and were voiced for both (some fully, some partially), and in some cases even animated. But they were cut before release. So, we know the time and energy went into creating that content (at least to some extent). Taken with the time and energy put into creating numerous options in ME2, adding Tali and Garrus as love interests, there has to be another, unspoken reason for cutting the homosexual content.

4) Finally, addressing those who say "but maybe X just isn't bi/gay": the people who know Kaidan is hot for manShep would beg to differ ;-)

In short (ha! you wish!) the excuses Bioware have trundled out so far are insulting, full of BS, and ignore every single one of the questions and concerns that have been raised by fans on forums. It's a hot-button topic and it's one that won't go away. Gaymers, and straight gamers who value choice and equality, just want the option to be treated the same as any other player. No, this isn't a dating sim, but to quote myself from # 2: ME is a choice-rich game and the inclusion of diverse romance choices in the first place makes the glaring omission of homosexual options all the more obvious and suspicious.