9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Siansonea]

Well said 'buca.

[Eromenos]

I agree with you 100%, Catabuca.

[LOST GAM3R]

Siansonea II wrote...

LOST GAM3R wrote:
lolwut?

<_<
Congratulations. You are all steadfastly embodying the stereotype of the teenaged shooter fan. Thanks for playing.

Now if you could transcend your physiological and cultural programming long enough to contribute something meaningful to the discussion, that would be great.

[Edit: Images removed. Images not pertaining to Mass Effect and contribute little to conducive discussion are spam and not allowed. - Pacifien]

Modifié par Pacifien, 20 décembre 2010 - 11:47 .

[Wittand25]

General reminder. No trolling, flaming, spamming or other misbehavior is tolerated here.

If you show any of these behavior you will be reported no matter if you support or oppose the topic of the thread.

I ask everyone supporting the topic to do so by remaining calm and civil even to posters who do not return the favour.

I feel that this reminder is necessary because the recent announcement of ME3 did increase the activity in this thread and considering that it is pretty important I do not want it locked.

[XX55XX]

In my opinion, Shepard's sexual orientation should be designated by the player. Shepard is essentially a blank slate, and the player should feel free to project whatever interpretations they have of the character onto him/her.

But, in the case of squadmates... I do express some concern that certain people within this lobby are attempting to turn certain characters who have been designated as heterosexual, into bisexual characters out of personal desire. For example, Tali has been designated as a heterosexual female, given that the only way to pursue a romantic relationship with Tali is through a male Shepard.

This would create inconsistencies that I rather not see. Otherwise, I do not have a problem with people wanting homosexual or bisexual characters in the game - so long as their sexuality does not change in between games.

[Wittand25]

XX55XX wrote...

In my opinion, Shepard's sexual orientation should be designated by the player. Shepard is essentially a blank slate, and the player should feel free to project whatever interpretations they have of the character onto him/her.

But, in the case of squadmates... I do express some concern that certain people within this lobby are attempting to turn certain characters who have been designated as heterosexual, into bisexual characters out of personal desire. For example, Tali has been designated as a heterosexual female, given that the only way to pursue a romantic relationship with Tali is through a male Shepard.

This would create inconsistencies that I rather not see. Otherwise, I do not have a problem with people wanting homosexual or bisexual characters in the game - so long as their sexuality does not change in between games.

I understand and partially agree with your statement. But I find it interesting that you bring up Tali, because her interest in Sheppard has only been brought up in ME2, she and Garrus show no sign of attraction to Sheppard.
And similarly could be explained why and how Kaidan or another male is now open to MShep.
Opening an existing squad-mate for a same-sex romance also leads to the problem that all candidates can be dead in an import and it would be twice as annoying to get m/m romances integrated into ME3 and then find out that you cannot play it because the character is dead in your import.
On the other hand a the new romances run the risk of feeling inferior to romances that spanned over two or three games and Bioware would need to make certain that the romances do not feel second grade to the general public .
To sum it up I am fine with either solution, but considering that a new character produces lesser problems it would be better to have a new male love interest for male Sheppard (and of course the same is true for female Sheppards).

Modifié par Wittand25, 20 décembre 2010 - 09:31 .

[catabuca]

Wittand25 wrote...

I understand and partially agree with your statement. But I find it interesting that you bring up Tali, because her interest in Sheppard has only been brought up in ME2, she and Garrus show no sign of attraction to Sheppard.
And similarly could be explained why and how Kaidan or another male is now open to MShep.

...snip...

Quite. If we take the view that gay and straight relationships are equal, then there is absolutely no difference in allowing Kaidan, for example, be 'suddenly' romanceable by a male Shepard than there is in Tali 'suddenly' being romanceably by a male Shepard. Neither were available in ME1 for a male Shepard to express an interest in (apart from by modding files, in the case of Kaidan - no such thing was achievable for Tali, nor Garrus), and yet in ME2 the writers found a way to open up that path for Tali. So it is a dead-end of an argument to suggest the same would not be possible for Kaidan and male Shepards. The ONLY difference, let's be clear here, is that it would mean Kaidan and the respective male Shep identifying as bi or gay. In terms of character progression this is absolutely no different than Tali recognising her feelings for Shepard ... the difference lies squarely with the player and how they choose to think about it. If you are free from prejudice and believe all relationships, gay and straight, are equally valid, then there is no problem here. If you do think there's a difference between the Tali and Kaidan situation ... well, I'd suggest there's more going on here than simply worrying about realistic character progression.

[didymos1120]

catabuca wrote...


Quite. If we take the view that gay and straight relationships are equal, then there is absolutely no difference in allowing Kaidan, for example, be 'suddenly' romanceable by a male Shepard than there is in Tali 'suddenly' being romanceably by a male Shepard. Neither were available in ME1 for a male Shepard to express an interest in (apart from by modding files, in the case of Kaidan - no such thing was achievable for Tali, nor Garrus), and yet in ME2 the writers found a way to open up that path for Tali.

What's more, they've flat-out said in interviews that, really, the only reason they even considered doing that is simply because a bunch of fans wanted them to be romanceable and talked about it a lot on the intarwebs.  Now, the insane popularity of Talimancing aside, I have a lot of trouble believing that demand for hot Garrus-FemShep action was anywhere near as large as that for some hot MShep-Kaidan or, to a lesser extent, FemShep-Ash, action.  Especially given all the effort the PC modders went to to circumvent the fact of those two romances being dummied out in ME1.

Modifié par didymos1120, 20 décembre 2010 - 10:22 .

[TheButterflyEffect]

Nooo I just want Shepard to be allowed to STAY STAY STAY with their ME2 LI!

[Wittand25]

catabuca wrote...


I Quite. If we take the view that gay and straight relationships are equal, then there is absolutely no difference in allowing Kaidan, for example, be 'suddenly' romanceable by a male Shepard than there is in Tali 'suddenly' being romanceably by a male Shepard. Neither were available in ME1 for a male Shepard to express an interest in (apart from by modding files, in the case of Kaidan - no such thing was achievable for Tali, nor Garrus), and yet in ME2 the writers found a way to open up that path for Tali. So it is a dead-end of an argument to suggest the same would not be possible for Kaidan and male Shepards. The ONLY difference, let's be clear here, is that it would mean Kaidan and the respective male Shep identifying as bi or gay. In terms of character progression this is absolutely no different than Tali recognising her feelings for Shepard ...

It is actually not the same situation, very similar but not the same.
There is one minor difference from the story point of view because Kaidan has a history with women, but that should not be a problem because there is nothing preventing him from being bisexual.

The bigger and more important difference, not story but game-play related problem, is that unlike Tali and Garrus, who are both alive at the start of ME2 in the standard storyline, Kaidan is not. So the only way he can be even considered an option requires the comic that is announced for the PS3 version to cover the Virmire decision and that the comic gets released to the other two platforms as well. Or giving us another option in ME3 and having Kaidan, if alive, as additional alternative.

[MrObnoxiousUK]

Although it is laudable standing up for your preferences in partners and such,the last installment of game is probally finished story wise and i doubt a ret-con of this magnitude will happen.

[didymos1120]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Nooo I just want Shepard to be allowed to STAY STAY STAY with their ME2 LI!

Why would you not be able to if they allow same-sex romances in ME3?  The two aren't mutually exclusive, you know.

[ElitePinecone]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Nooo I just want Shepard to be allowed to STAY STAY STAY with their ME2 LI!

Of course Shepard can stay with their ME2 LI, if you have one and that's what you choose to do. All we're suggesting is more optional romance options for the third game. There will likely be more love interests anyway, it could only get moar awesome if these included same-sex romance options. 

[TheButterflyEffect]

Yeah but what if Bioware decides to have the relationship take a nosedive and crash into ruin like the ME1 ones did in ME2? Big NOOOOOOO....

[didymos1120]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Yeah but what if Bioware decides to have the relationship take a nosedive and crash into ruin like the ME1 ones did in ME2? Big NOOOOOOO....

That's got nothing to do with adding same-sex romances. 

[Temper_Graniteskul]

Douglas wrote...

Although it is laudable standing up for your preferences in partners and such,the last installment of game is probally finished story wise and i doubt a ret-con of this magnitude will happen.

What is there to ret-con, if no extant NPCs are opened up to s/s romances? If BioWare includes f/f and m/m romances with completely new characters (which I think a lot of people in the thread would be happy with), rather than existing ones, there isn't even the whiff of a ret-con. The player can have Shep choose to engage in a s/s relationship or not (just as they could an o/s relationship or not), and it would remain entirely consistent with the previously established narrative because it remains, as always, the player's choice.

MShep not having m/m romance opportunities with NPCs is not the same thing as MShep being written straight.

[LoveAsThouWilt]

catabuca wrote...

Here here! Agreed. We aren't given any answers to all the questions that we ask, and those people who come here, in very few numbers this time around I might add, that bring up the same "reasons" why it shouldn't be allowed and isn't allowed and the "why are you guys still talking about this issue?" need to learn one thing:

We aren't going to let it go. BIoware has flat out lied and dodged our questions while giving other fans whom pleaded for romances with specific characters, those romances, while many of us were sidelined with nothing.

Wittand25 wrote...

It is actually not the same situation, very similar but not the same.
There
is one minor difference from the story point of view because Kaidan has
a history with women, but that should not be a problem because there is
nothing preventing him from being bisexual.

The bigger and more
important difference, not story but game-play related problem, is that
unlike Tali and Garrus, who are both alive at the start of ME2 in the
standard storyline, Kaidan is not. So the only way he can be even
considered an option requires the comic that is announced for the PS3
version to cover the Virmire decision and that the comic gets released
to the other two platforms as well. Or giving us another option in ME3
and having Kaidan, if alive, as additional alternative.

Why
would the comic need to be on the other platforms? We have Mass Effect
1, the comic is MOOT if you have Mass Effect 1. MOOT. I choose to save
Kaidan each time. And btw, the PS3 version does cover this section
anyways. And Kaidan has a history with ONE WOMAN in his background
story, of which nothing in his dialoge stated an sexual or romantic
relationship with. His caring for her as much as he did would be no
different than a straight man caring for another man put in Rana's place
taking the same kind of abuse. A bit more so in Rana's case if only
because she's a female and IE in the males mind: slightly more
vulnerable. Nothing in that background said "I like women"

Playing
Mass Effect 4 times and always chatting up Kaidan, he was CLEARLY made
for romancing by Male Shepard, background included. Even he was the one
to show up on the Normandy as ME2 start to tell me about Joker, even
though I romanced no one (because I wanted him instead).

Modifié par LoveAsThouWilt, 21 décembre 2010 - 02:41 .

[LoveAsThouWilt]

EDIT: Delete this post MODERATOR, accidental double.

Modifié par LoveAsThouWilt, 21 décembre 2010 - 02:42 .

[didymos1120]

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...
What is there to ret-con, if no extant NPCs are opened up to s/s romances?

Besides which, not one of the romanceable characters so far (besides, possibly, Jack with her "Girls' club" comment. It depends on what she actually meant by that: I originally thought she was just saying "I don't do that 'girl talk and/or vagina loyalty' crap FemShep.  Go bug someone else.") has ever been unequivocally designated as hetero-only. 

In a single case, I do think it'd be a stretch to make a character same-sex romanceable at this point.  For me, especially based on info in LotSB, I just don't see Miranda going that way because her history is very much male-oriented. Not because it's totally unrealistic or anything, but just because of the way fiction in general works, it would kinda seem that way.  I.e., to me it's more an issue of being more difficult for the writers to pull that off well, so I'd rather they just didn't try. 

But no one else is firmly established as anything in particular.  Tali has zero relationship history pre-Shep and, actually, neither does Ash (and Liara too, but then she's already FemShep romanceable).  Yes, a couple lines imply past relationships, but other than the fact that she thought this one guy in her squad was kinda cute, there's nothing at all specific that I can recall.  For the others about which we do know something concrete, we still don't know much more: 

Thane had a wife.  Well...so?  Lots of completely and thoroughly gay men, not to mention bisexual men, have had one, or even more than one, of those.  Many for decades on end.  'Course, he's likely buying the farm real soon now, so it's kinda moot in his case.

Jacob had a short-lived fling with Miranda.  Nope: nothing ruled out there.

Kaidan had a crush on one girl at BAaT decades ago.  Again: not unheard of for gay men to have had female crushes at some point.  And obviously, that's quite consistent with him being bisexual.

Jack is known, for a fact, to have hooked up with at least one woman.  And said woman's boyfriend.  Simultaneously.  And then she apparently killed them both, but that's neither here nor there.

Garrus hooked up with some flexible turian chick this one time. IMPRESSIVE! Not exactly super-informative or exhaustive, however.

The only reason people insist these characters must be straight is the (likely mostly cultural) tendency to assume "Het until proven otherwise".  Granted, the odds in real life often favor that assumption, but it's still just a rule of thumb.  That or they know damn well that there's nothing implausible about making them same-sex options, but they doggedly insist otherwise because, frankly, they're homophobic and/or kind of disturbingly territorial about their imaginary ME girlfriend/boyfriend.

[didymos1120]

LoveAsThouWilt wrote...
 Even he was the one to show up on the Normandy as ME2 start to tell me about Joker, even
though I romanced no one (because I wanted him instead).

That's nothing to do with him initially being intended to be the gay male option, though (which he certainly was, to be sure).   It's simply because Ash is dead and you didn't romance Liara.  The surviving human squaddie is just the default for any Shep with no romance in ME1 (not on the PS3 though: they changed it so it will only ever be Liara, because the backstory comic only shows up after the SR-1 is toast).  Otherwise, it's your romantic interest, provided they too aren't dead, in which case it again defaults to the Virmire survivor.

Modifié par didymos1120, 21 décembre 2010 - 02:59 .

[BigBody26]

Think about what you are asking of Bioware. Create a DLC that allows same sex romance or allow an option to choose sexual orientation in the Options menu to make your character gay.



Either of those would require making every character in the game bisexual. If there was a Sexual Orientation option in the Options menu then you are asking Bioware to write each character twice in two very different ways. These games take long enough to make. Adding all this extra work to satisfy a small % of their fanbase doesn't make sense.



Let's be honest, the fans who want same sex relationships are the minority. Bioware has so many expectations to live up to with the story and gameplay that I highly doubt they have the extra time to devote to writing the characters 2 different ways. Bioware, like all video game companies, will focus on satisfying the majority of their fanbase. I understand your arguments and reasons for wanting it in the game, but realistically it probably won't happen. The majority of ME fans do not want to see it and Bioware will want to satisfy the majority of their fans.

[Temper_Graniteskul]

didymos1120 wrote...

Oh, no. I definitely think there could be a case made for most, if not all, NPC squaddies to open them up to romances with Sheps of either sex. Heck, I'm among the many who saw blatant text and subtext in the MShep/Kaidan conversations over ME1 and 2 (unmodded games, just to be clear). Additionally, Tali and Garrus - opened up as LIs because of fan demand - are arguments for fans having dictated the course of some romances, rather than the writers and the ephemeral purity of characterisation (the 'well, maybe the character just isn't into X' argument).

I only meant to offer up a challenge to the ret-con claim. If nothing is changed about the existing NPCs - if their romance options stay static - then there is no conceivable basis for any accusations of or worry about 'ret-con.' New NPCs with s/s romance options - for example, say, Big Ben, maybe:) - say nothing about what has come before. Only that Shep has those options in ME3, which can be taken or not as the player chooses.

Modifié par Temper_Graniteskul, 21 décembre 2010 - 03:49 .

[didymos1120]

BigBody26 wrote...

Think about what you are asking of Bioware. Create a DLC that allows same sex romance or allow an option to choose sexual orientation in the Options menu to make your character gay.

Either of those would require making every character in the game bisexual.

Um, no.  It merely means providing at least one same-sex romance option for each gender.