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[What is this]

didymos1120 wrote...

What is this wrote...

You can't make characters who weren't previously gay, gay now.

Which characters are those? And how is that you're certain about that?

The fact that they wouldn't romance one sex in the the first two games but would romance the oppisite sex attributes to that.

[PROKNIFER69]

What is this wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

What is this wrote...

You can't make characters who weren't previously gay, gay now.

Which characters are those? And how is that you're certain about that?

The fact that they wouldn't romance one sex in the the first two games but would romance the oppisite sex attributes to that.

Maybe they only just decided to come outta the closet

[Eromenos]

What is this wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

What is this wrote...

You can't make characters who weren't previously gay, gay now.

Which characters are those? And how is that you're certain about that?

The fact that they wouldn't romance one sex in the the first two games but would romance the oppisite sex attributes to that.

Nef "changed" her sexuality. Albeit this was done in a way that cast BioWare's obligatory sad/evil glow on F/F.

Tali and Garrus had no sexual desires or preferences in ME1. They were "changed" for ME2.

Every game character is a malleable construct. Don't pretend as if "straight ones deserve some exclusive immunity" to tampering.

Modifié par Eromenos, 21 décembre 2010 - 07:54 .

[didymos1120]

Eromenos wrote...
 I don't think we should say that Harkin should only be hitting on the wimmin,

Apparently, neither does Harkin...

[didymos1120]

Eromenos wrote...
Excepting Conrad Verner, they were all bug-free.

I wish.  The Sirta Foundation thing (the ME1 full Paragon assignment) doesn't import correctly. Even if you saved all the scientists, the news always says they're in deep financial trouble and likely to close down.  Neither does the Consort sidequest: no matter what you do, the news always says she's leaving after years of bad press.  Her email shows up at least.  The audio for the proper outcomes is in the game, but never plays.

The thing with Samesh Bhatia is possibly bugged too: if you get the wife's body back, he will send you an email, but there's an unused news story about how research done as a result of the Eden Prime attacks resulted in better weapons for Alliance soldiers, which was the exact reason they wanted to keep the body.  

There's also some more stuff that may be the result of import bugs: stuff about the rogue VI on the moon, Pinnacle Station, the full Renegade mission ("Lord" Darius), and the Terra Firma sidequest. 

See the first link in my sig if you want to hear them.

[Wittand25]

Eromenos wrote...

It increases the possible status of Kaidan at the beginning of ME3, so of course it makes it more complicated to properly address all possible scenarios that should be self evident. That is the reason why LotSB does not contain any big decisions. The complications of carrying over decisions to ME3 do not allow for decisions that would have a big impact on ME3  only smaller things like Overlord that can be simply addressed by a single line in ME3. 

And the sex of Shepard should play a factor in the available romances. I would love it for example if there is a truly homosexual woman open for romance by FShep and if MShep approaches her romantically she shoots him down. Sadly considering the amount of work necessary for creating Bioware style romance options this is very unlikely to happen because for economic reasons any LI open for same sex romance would be bisexual and also romance-able by the opposite sex.

[didymos1120]

Wittand25 wrote...
That is the reason why LotSB does not contain any big decisions.

The problem with this is, in Lair you can in fact pick up the Liara romance again, regardless of whether or not you've currently started another in ME2, or break it off.  So, looks like romance choices in DLCs aren't such a problem for Bioware after all...

ETA: Not to mention this whole "DLC choices will cause problems for ME3" notion is pretty shaky just on the basis of the planned bridging DLCs.  I mean, unless you think nothing in those will have any effect whatsoever on ME3. Or, at least, they won't offer any non-trivial importable choices in them and all the ME3-affecting stuff will be set in stone.

Modifié par didymos1120, 21 décembre 2010 - 08:16 .

[Wittand25]

didymos1120 wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...
That is the reason why LotSB does not contain any big decisions.

The problem with this is, in Lair you can in fact pick up the Liara romance again, regardless of whether or not you've currently started another in ME2, or break it off.  So, looks like romance choices in DLCs aren't such a problem for Bioware after all...

But you cannot start a romance. Breaking up is more easily done and carried over to the next game than starting a romance. I am not saying that it is impossible and I would love to see it. But with all the steps necesary to have Kaidan alive alongside MShep ( if this will be even possible for PS3 players) and the possible relationship status of everyone involded it seems unlikely that we will see a DLC to properly address it.

I am pretty certain that all important thing of the bridging DLC (like the outcome for Liara in LotSB) will be unchangeable. Not every player has access/is willing to by DLC and so DLC cannot feature important decisions without alienating more players than those who would benefit from it.

Modifié par Wittand25, 21 décembre 2010 - 08:23 .

[Phategod1]

Why Not I dont judge And when it comes to Mass Effect I'll try anything once.

[Eromenos]

didymos1120 wrote...

Eromenos wrote...
Excepting Conrad Verner, they were all bug-free.

I wish.  The Sirta Foundation thing (the ME1 full Paragon assignment) doesn't import correctly. Even if you saved all the scientists, the news always says they're in deep financial trouble and likely to close down.  Neither does the Consort sidequest: no matter what you do, the news always says she's leaving after years of bad press.  Her email shows up at least.  The audio for the proper outcomes is in the game, but never plays.

The thing with Samesh Bhatia is possibly bugged too: if you get the wife's body back, he will send you an email, but there's an unused news story about how research done as a result of the Eden Prime attacks resulted in better weapons for Alliance soldiers, which was the exact reason they wanted to keep the body.  

There's also some more stuff that may be the result of import bugs: stuff about the rogue VI on the moon, Pinnacle Station, the full Renegade mission ("Lord" Darius), and the Terra Firma sidequest. 

See the first link in my sig if you want to hear them.

I wondered about those. Well, that stinks. And it's been one year since release...

As for the vid you linked, I was thinking about that when I wrote about Harkin. Too many of the homophobic segment among straight guys coming here to cry about being "violated" by male NPCs is the kind of thing BioWare is bowing to.

Modifié par Eromenos, 21 décembre 2010 - 11:55 .

[Eromenos]

Wittand25 wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

It increases the possible status of Kaidan at the beginning of ME3, so of course it makes it more complicated to properly address all possible scenarios that should be self evident. That is the reason why LotSB does not contain any big decisions. The complications of carrying over decisions to ME3 do not allow for decisions that would have a big impact on ME3  only smaller things like Overlord that can be simply addressed by a single line in ME3. 

I'm going with the response Didymos wrote to that. No better way for me to put it.

And the sex of Shepard should play a factor in the available romances. I would love it for example if there is a truly homosexual woman open for romance by FShep and if MShep approaches her romantically she shoots him down. Sadly considering the amount of work necessary for creating Bioware style romance options this is very unlikely to happen because for economic reasons any LI open for same sex romance would be bisexual and also romance-able by the opposite sex.

Would be nice, but yes...BioWare's history shows they always ruin it by going down the insulting route you predicted.

Funny, even if they were to allow John Shepard to hit on a lesbian and get shot down, BioWare's too craven to allow John to hit on a straight man regardless of identical results.

[Ryzaki]

Actually having multiple people shoot down Shep (gay shep and straight shep) would be pretty fun.



Shep: What is going on?!? Everyone wanted to sleep with me before! T_T

[Eromenos]

Wittand25 wrote...

I am pretty certain that all important thing of the bridging DLC (like the outcome for Liara in LotSB) will be unchangeable. Not every player has access/is willing to by DLC and so DLC cannot feature important decisions without alienating more players than those who would benefit from it.

I think for ME3, those who do not pick up LotSB won't be able to reminisce with Liara about those events. Liara in her new job does seem canon, but people who did not purchase LotSB then whatever they had preexisting with Liara will simply be dealt with in ME3. As far as Shepard's friendship or involvement with Liara is concerned, BioWare has made it clear that shenanigans with ME2 squadmates do have an impact on Shepard's lover from ME1.

I've never romanced Liara and I don't think I ever will, but I believe some changes in any relationship with her can crop up ahead of time in the DLC for people who romanced Liara yet chose to get busy with the new shipmates. Rather than waiting for ME3.

A DLC for Kaidan and Ashley allowing for a new relationship can follow a similar model. Shepard can do something with them that's important to the Alliance, and either spark a new relationship or continue what Shepard had with Kaidan or Ashley. For gay gamers, it should include that little something extra which homophobia had excluded from ME1. (And similarly, ME2). If BioWare does this, they should allow for something similar in ME3 for people who want the choice but abstain from the DLC.

It's not as if straight gamers might not want to play with that themselves. Gods know some of the guys might consider it their prerogative to F/F with as many of the wimmin as they can. But BioWare's likely to not give us that choice just because more people will be screaming that it caters to us. Obviously they forget how ME1 and ME2 alone both cater heavily to homophobia.

Modifié par Eromenos, 22 décembre 2010 - 12:25 .

[Eromenos]

Ryzaki wrote...

Actually having multiple people shoot down Shep (gay shep and straight shep) would be pretty fun.

Shep: What is going on?!? Everyone wanted to sleep with me before! T_T

Hahaha. They should definitely bribe DAO's people into helping them make this a reality.

[Wittand25]

Eromenos wrote...

Would be nice, but yes...BioWare's history shows they always ruin it by going down the insulting route you predicted.

Funny, even if they were to allow John Shepard to hit on a lesbian and get shot down, BioWare's too craven to allow John to hit on a straight man regardless of identical results.

What exactly is insulting in thinking economically ? Last time I checked Bioware was still a company trying to make profit and not a welfare organisation.
And you can and could hit on straight guys in Bioware games and get turned down ever since BG2. Most of the prostitutes in that game would politely turn you down if you approached them with a  toon of the same sex and if I am not completely mistaken the same is true for later games as well, but usually if you can express interest the one you show interest in does not turn you down in Bioware games, no matter the sex combination because Bioware usually does not allow pointless flirting in their games.

Modifié par Wittand25, 22 décembre 2010 - 12:26 .

[Eromenos]

Wittand25 wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

Would be nice, but yes...BioWare's history shows they always ruin it by going down the insulting route you predicted.

Funny, even if they were to allow John Shepard to hit on a lesbian and get shot down, BioWare's too craven to allow John to hit on a straight man regardless of identical results.

What exactly is insulting in thinking economically ? Last time I checked Bioware was still a company trying to make profit and not a welfare organisation.

I'm referring to BioWare's penchant for never allowing romance-able female squadmates to be fully lesbian. That is what they do and that is what you predicted they will keep doing instead of writing an attractive woman who likes only women, but not men. Unlike BioWare's existing stable who are all forced to be accessible to male protagonists. It's hypocritical for BioWare to write like that while yet reserving an even greater number of women characters exclusively for M/F.

I know last year the 5Red-4Blue U.S. Supreme Court began allowing "corporate entities" to wield as much influence in politics as they desire, but that doesn't mean no one is allowed to criticize business practices that are demeaning.

And you can and could hit on straight guys in Bioware games and get turned down ever since BG2. Most of the prostitutes in that game would politely turn you down if you approached them with a  toon of the same sex and if I am not completely mistaken the same is true for later games as well, but usually if you can express interest the one you show interest in does not turn you down in Bioware games, no matter the sex combination because Bioware usually does not allow pointless flirting in their games.

How far removed is BG2 from what we're dealing with now? In any case the BG2 situation you described is hardly welcoming to us.

I've only played BioWare since KOTOR and NWN. To my knowledge, men never had the chance to flirt with Carth or the guys in NWN, but there were same-sex prostitutes in both games who followed the BG2 model of BioWare's discrimination.

We could go (almost)all the way with Sky in JE, but only if we were natural a-holes before meeting him. If we satisfied Dumb Star's neediness in any way Sky would become off-limits to us, which I took to be a homophobic layer of protection for people who want to be screened from any hints of M/M. IIRC, in that situation Sky even tries to give us a shove towards Dumb Star. If people didn't know what to look for, they could easily assume M/M and F/F were not part of JE. And the fade-to-black same-sex kisses = /thumbs down.

As for DAO, men aren't allowed to even flirt with Alistair unless we hack the thing into believing our Warden is female. The human noble origin does have something brief for us, if we play it right. Pity that's the sole extent of human M/M BioWare has done, something that ends quickly in blood.

ME1 and ME2? Well, I think we all know.

Modifié par Eromenos, 22 décembre 2010 - 12:49 .

[nocbl2]

Have an option in the beginning of the game where it asks if you want Shep to be homosexual.



BAM. Done.

[Wittand25]

Eromenos wrote...
I'm referring to BioWare's penchant for never allowing romance-able female squadmates to be fully lesbian. That is what they do and that is what you predicted they will keep doing instead of writing an attractive woman who likes only women, but not men. Unlike BioWare's existing stable who are all forced to be accessible to male protagonists. It's hypocritical for BioWare to write like that while yet reserving an even greater number of women characters exclusively for M/F.

I know last year the 5Red-4Blue U.S. Supreme Court began allowing "corporate entities" to wield as much influence in politics as they desire, but that doesn't mean no one is allowed to criticize business practices that are demeaning.

a)Juhani
How are they demeaning, I really do not understnad it. Ok yes the ME games are so immature when it comes to sexual content that anyone but a straight teenage boy has to roll with their eyes, but that does not make it demeaning. Annoying and irritating I would agree but not demeaning.

How far removed is BG2 from what we're dealing with now? In any case the BG2 situation you described is hardly welcoming to us.

I've only played BioWare since KOTOR and NWN. To my knowledge, men never had the chance to flirt with Carth or the guys in NWN, but there were same-sex prostitutes in both games who followed the BG2 model of BioWare's discrimination.

We could go (almost)all the way with Sky in JE, but only if we were natural a-holes before meeting him. If we satisfied Dumb Star's neediness in any way Sky would become off-limits to us, which I took to be a homophobic layer of protection for people who want to be screened from any hints of M/M. IIRC, in that situation Sky even tries to give us a shove towards Dumb Star. If people didn't know what to look for, they could easily assume M/M and F/F were not part of JE. And the fade-to-black same-sex kisses = /thumbs down.

As for DAO, men aren't allowed to even flirt with Alistair unless we hack the thing into believing our Warden is female. The human noble origin does have something brief for us, if we play it right. Pity that's the sole extent of human M/M BioWare has done, something that ends quickly in blood.

ME1 and ME2? Well, I think we all know.

You said Bioware would never allow you hitting om a straight guy and get turned down, I showed you that they did ten years ago and so suddenly it is not the brave move you demanded just a posting ago but a sign of discrimination instead ?
You forget the pearl  in DA:O. And the other m/m content that does not involve the warden.
Also in JE the s/s content was a late addition and they did not have time enough to finish the final animation. That is the reason why the kiss fades to black a couple of seconds earlier in the s/s romance. I agree though that the romance starter was not ideal because you had to end the straight romances before you could approach Sky and you could only do so by being an **** to both girls.
You are not allowed to flirt with Alistaire because he is straight and Bioware does usually not allow flirting with companions unless you can fully romance them. That is the reason why a male warden cannot flirt with Alistaire, Wynne; Sigrun, Vellana ...  .

[Eromenos]

Wittand25 wrote...

a)Juhani
How are they demeaning, I really do not understnad it. Ok yes the ME games are so immature when it comes to sexual content that anyone but a straight teenage boy has to roll with their eyes, but that does not make it demeaning. Annoying and irritating I would agree but not demeaning.

Juhani wasn't romance-able or human. You could only ever find out her attractions if you killed her, or through one bugged interaction if she lived.

Annoying and irritating yes, but I say demeaning as well because their depictions of us are always treated as less meaningful and unsuccessful, and less seen altogether than the M/F throughout their games.

You said Bioware would never allow you hitting om a straight guy and get turned down, I showed you that they did ten years ago and so suddenly it is not the brave move you demanded just a posting ago but a sign of discrimination instead ?
You forget the pearl  in DA:O. And the other m/m content that does not involve the warden.
Also in JE the s/s content was a late addition and they did not have time enough to finish the final animation. That is the reason why the kiss fades to black a couple of seconds earlier in the s/s romance. I agree though that the romance starter was not ideal because you had to end the straight romances before you could approach Sky and you could only do so by being an **** to both girls.
You are not allowed to flirt with Alistaire because he is straight and Bioware does usually not allow flirting with companions unless you can fully romance them. That is the reason why a male warden cannot flirt with Alistaire, Wynne; Sigrun, Vellana ...  .

10 years ago is exactly my point. I'm guessing BG did not allow for any human M/M, so the prostitutes who said no to that effect politely or otherwise served as something BioWare should have improved on. As it turns out you were right that they did specifically improve in that regard, because I completely forgot about DAO's Pearl. I do still say that it's discrimination back then, but for this specific area you are right that they improved.

I lump BioWare's motivations for the following together as one- JE s/s kiss along with the unnecessary obstacle represented by Dumb Star that a male PC has to circumvent before any chance to romance Sky were both products of a similar goal to not inflict M/M onto "normal" gamers. Though I have to say, excluding the kiss for people who have gone that far is...I have no words.

Alistair is straight in BioWare canon, but do you question why the square-jawed quarterback leading male NPC is kept clear away from M/M? Sky was proof that it could be done...except with Alistair, such attraction can hardly be hidden away.

Modifié par Eromenos, 22 décembre 2010 - 01:38 .

[Darth_Ravor]

I haven't read the thousands of comments yet but my opinion is that I'm cool with these romance options, but i don't want another guy char like Jacob who i think of as a bud to hit on me. that would be kinda weird. was bad enough with zevran. i felt bad for not being gay

[Erode_The_Soul]

Good Lord, this is a long thread. After reading 141 pages of it, there's not much I can add but I figured I'd post my support either way. There should absolutely be a homosexual romance option for both genders in ME3 and I sincerely hope Bioware comes through this time around.

Hell, we could kill two birds with one stone and make Joker bisexual; that way there's at least some sort of m/m romance (though, admittedly, not ideal) and my femshep could finally romance her pilot.

Everybody wins!

[LoveAsThouWilt]

Well, I've said it once, I'll say it again:









Seriously Bioware?

[Sahariel]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Snipped for brevity.

Ok first of all no one has any idea what people will be like in 2185, but considering we still deal with the fallout of slavery which ended a comparable amount of time ago to Mass Effect's time away from us, it is not unreasonable to assume that the issue of sexuality won't still be a delicate subject in the future. In any case I would say a persons sexuality will be absolutely intergral to who they are. This won't of course be the only defining qualitiy a person possesses and I wouldn't dream to suggest otherwise. Take Oscar Wilde, his writings and wit and experiences are massively informed by his sexuality.

Glossing over peoples sexuality like that I believe actually dumbs down the issue. I appreciate you are trying to see things from an egalitarian perspective, but I for one prize and value diversity. One size fits all characters you can date, romance and sleep with in a videogame will by definition get samey and cliched. The crux of my position here isn't that I am against same sex relationships in games, if anything I am for it. However I would just like to see solutions banded about rather than the juxtaposition of the usual homophobia, and resultant backlash from percieved slights.

[Calneth]

Just thought I'd drop in and voice my support for this. I'd love to see same sex romance options for both male and female Shephard in ME3. Here's hopin'.

[Sahariel]

Eromenos wrote...

snipped for brevity...

Ok you seem to have mistaken me for something I am not. I am against same sex relationships with NPCs in ToR simply because when they appear in games they tend towards hiking the age rating of the game, and I want ToR to be a WoW killer which it won't be if only a handful of people can play it. I'd rather the equal reltionships brigade fought thier battle in A) A place there are more like to actually win it, and In a place where it won't damage the potential of the game.

Secondly lets deal with the elephant in the room here shall we? Damn straight it's "alternative". Last I checked homosexuals and bisexuals were in a minority, therefore that is a departure from what is normal. You however seemed to have placed some strange value on that being significant. Normal isn't always good and different isn't always either. In my considered opinion being gay or bisexual isn't normal, neither is it a bad thing. What gives me the right to say that? Nothing beyond an ability to read statistics. We don't need a society that tries to make everything uniform, or to sterlize language for the risk of offending someone. I for one would not be considered not normal, as I'll stop to help a stranger, try to be polite and a myriad of other common courtesies lost in the modern age, however this is a deviation I posses I am very proud of.

Ok how are Bioware being hypocrites? Gay and bi romances are in a minority if you include them in equal number you are scewing the statistics, and representing an unrealistic appraisal of human sexuality. Say if you include 1-2 gay/bi romances out of 10 possible options you would be sensibly representing statistics. The only other option is to run a sandbox style game where you can go out and meet and specifically recruit crewmembers because thier sexuality matches your own. Then you would lose more interpersonal story threads.

Ok when I say Mass Effect isn't a romance I see I am going to have to educate you as to literary theory here. For a story to be a Romance the romantic aspects have to be the elements that drive foward the narrative. Romeo and Juliet is a romance because you take out the love and you have no story. Brokeback Mountain too is a love story and hence a romance, take out the love and you have two dudes watching livestock and precious little else. Fact is you can play through both Mass Effects not engage in any romance and it doesn't stop the story moving foward. Ergo it's not a romance. However it can still contain romances, but they are secondary plot elements that whilst they may add depth do not define the story.

To summarise: have same sex relationships, but please do them well or not at all.